Anyone who welds - pro or hobby - this is a MUST read (SAFETY)

[Jeff in PA]

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

The guy used brake cleaner to clean a part before he welded it. He got a tiny puff of smoke and it literally almost killed him. The cleaner turned into Phosgene gas which is deadly.

Please pass this on to anyone who welds.

Jeff

[CommandoTom]

***WOW***, I had no idea!!!!! A must read for all welders, shop personel and anyone who might know any of these folks. Pass this along.

[Motormowers]

Thanks Jeff. I remember when I was a Thermo-King mechanic and when you were soldering the copper tubing if there was any gas left in the system the mix of the flame,copper, and refrigerant made phosgene gas also.

[Peter]

I gave you a thanks, but like to add another here in words. Thats something to think about.

[MoRo]

Shows to go ya, no matter how experienced ya are, there's something out there that never occured to ya.
I guess plain Dawn dish soap and warm water'd be about the safest cleaner, huh?

[Ice Czar]

it might be a good idea to add Metal Fume Fever as well


old iron and steel isnt much of a concern
but these days even mild steel is sort of a mystery meal
could be a fairly decent amount of recycle in it
in addition to the obvious dangers with tool steels, stainless steels and galvanized

[jht1057]

This is why I have a filtered air cleaner / re-circulator at ceiling level in my shop.

[Connor Hofford]

THANK YOU! this is VERY helpful info.i am going to be taking a welding and electricity class at school and my teacher sometimes does ''old school'' tricks like that and it will be good to know not to do this.

[Bud Tierney]

Add beryllium dust to your list of no-no's...if I recall my Astounding Science Fiction correctly, "...forms non-healing granulomata in the lungs..."...
No, I didn't look it up to see what "granulomata" are, but I'm sure I wouldn't want any; the "non-healing" is enough to know...
I would guess that if the dust was bad, fumes wouldn't be a good idea either...

Just the risk you take i suppose. Just about like a 747 crash. Doesnt happen too often, then when it does, BIG DEAL.

Im sure it's not much of an "old school trick" as it is lack of common sence & ventilation.

[Andrew Mackey]

Burning refridgerants like R-12 give off phosgene gas if in large enough quantities. Old time AC leak chasers used a Halide torch. The torch had a pitot tube that sucked in air samples and burned them. When the flame turned purple, you found the leak. Only problem - if the leak was bad, you got a snoot full of phosgene real quick, a big white vapor cloud.

Burning plastics like PVC and Bondo body filler give off the same stuff - deadly in a confined space.

Wear wool shirts and sweaters while welding/brazing? Light that up, even the fuzz, will give you a nice dose of CYANIDE! DON"T WEAR IT WHILE WELDING/BURNING/BRAZING!

Welding gives off many different fumes/vapors that can damage lungs. heavy metals contamination is the least of your worries!

Be especially careful if welding near wood - most treated lumber had ARSENIC in it before the mid 2000s. The wood doesn't have to burn to release the arsenic compounds into the air!

Ventilate, wear breathing protection/fresh air source, use common sense!

Andrew

[Jim DeWitt]

WOW!!!, I don't know if thank you times about a million is sufficient! I picked up a couple of cans of B R A K E C L E A N E R at TRAK AUTO last Thursday or Friday to help me clean the caked on crud from years of motor oil spillage and who knows what else on an old Lincoln short hood gasoline welder that a previous owner had attached to a very poorly made trailer with a broken weld. My steam cleaner has a shorted ignition coil so I was going to clean up the area to be repaired with the aerosol brake cleaner. Do I need to say anything else?, beyond re-stating the THANK YOU GUYS, I don't have any idea where else I would have run across this information if it hadn't been on here. Think I'll go sit down for a little while B4 I drive down to TRAK. Jim DeWitt

[S.Dale]

Originally Posted by Jim DeWitt

WOW!!!, I don't know if thank you times about a million is sufficient! I picked up a couple of cans of B R A K E C L E A N E R at TRAK AUTO last Thursday or Friday to help me clean the caked on crud from years of motor oil spillage and who knows what else on an old Lincoln short hood gasoline welder that a previous owner had attached to a very poorly made trailer with a broken weld. My steam cleaner has a shorted ignition coil so I was going to clean up the area to be repaired with the aerosol brake cleaner. Do I need to say anything else?, beyond re-stating the THANK YOU GUYS, I don't have any idea where else I would have run across this information if it hadn't been on here. Think I'll go sit down for a little while B4 I drive down to TRAK. Jim DeWitt

Yup!
In 1998 there was a mechanic that worked at my garage that I ended up at for 15 years. We'll call him Tom. Tom was about 20 at the time he Mustard gassed himself to death in his garage at home working on his Mother-in-law's car. We at that time still had R12 left and he was recharging the A/C with the car backed in, overhead only half open. There was an awful leak in the condenser line and the running engine sucked in and burned the R12 releasing Phosgene (mustard) gas. That accumulated in the rear of the garage the fire dpt. said it was strong enough that it took all the o2 from him as soon as he stepped into it and collapsed dead. He was an awful flaky phart. I'll bet he didn't even look for leaks, let alone know what it could become. RIP TOM

[OTTO-Sawyer]

So much for "better living through modern chemicals"

There's some dangerous stuff out there

[PTSideshow]

Originally Posted by Ice Czar

it might be a good idea to add Metal Fume Fever as well


old iron and steel isnt much of a concern
but these days even mild steel is sort of a mystery meal
could be a fairly decent amount of recycle in it
in addition to the obvious dangers with tool steels, stainless steels and galvanized

As with all items on the Wiki take it with a shovel full of salt, as anybody can can edit it or post anything. make sure that you check a number of sources before taking it as gospel.

Take this statement

Originally Posted by Wiki

Treatment

Treatment of mild metal fume fever consists of bedrest, and symptomatic therapy (e.g. aspirin for headaches) as indicated.

A traditional remedy is to consume large quantities of milk, either before or after exposure.[1]

The second part, It has been found that it does no good other than holding some of the stomach symptoms at bay. Due to a component in the milk, the slimy thicker stuff. It is no longer suggested anywhere that you drink large quantities of milk.

My father work for a time at a zinc casting shop they had them drink milk at the start of the shift, and at the end and during lunch. what worked better was wet bandannas, outlaw fashion over the mouth and nose.

The best defense for welding on galvanized material.

Is remove the coating in the area of welding,
grinding (wear a nuisance dust mask)
chemical stripping, If it is small items like nuts and bolts or other small pieces and you have some time, you can use acetic acid (vinegar) to remove it. If you have access to acetic acid of a higher % solution above 8% it will work faster.
If you use Muriatic make sure that it is done when the Muriatic fumes can't attack any other metal objects.

And use the proper respirator for welding fumes!

Since, most of the disposable respirators cost in the neighbor hood of a package of ciggies, or a 12 pack of beer. Buy one and place it in a zip lock plastic bag between uses

[JoeCB]

Very interisting... thanks for posting. Now reading thru all these posts I see mention of "PVC" , "copper" and "flame" which brings to mind an old campfire trick I had seem in years past... and I'm thinking that I'm alive to relay the story. It seems that you can get very pretty colored flames in your camp fire by stuffing a piece of PVC garden hose into a length of copper tubing and tossing it in the flames. Wow ... I'm alive! good thing no one tried toasting marshmellows.
Joe B

[Cyclenorthman]

Isn't any chemical that is chlorinated (chlorine) able to make mustard type gas and is dangerous when heated ? I'm not a chemical engineer so someone who knows will have to back this up or give us the correct info.
Just my $0.02

CNM

[SoTexRattler]

Mustard gas is not phosgene. Totally different compounds but still lethal.

The old classic case for phosgene generation was HOT carbon tetrachloride vapors escaping to the atmosphere in the presence of strong sunlight.. (UV light)

Way back when, everyone used Carbon Tet for cleaning stuff.

Welding creates tremendous amounts of UV light (and heat) and any chlorinated degreaser or refrigerant can still decompose into the same poison. (Carbon tet, perchloroethylene, Trichloroethylene, methylene chloride, R11, R12 etc)

Also, Phosgene exposure is made MUCH worse by consuming any alcohol... Really lethal combo.

Carbon Tet was used in those old brass FyR-Fytr type hand-pumped fire extinguishers. They killed a lot of people that got into the phosgene fumes generated.

[MoRo]

I guess it all boils down to always doing your welding in a well ventilated area to prevent overexposure to poisonous gasses. A lot of us make do with used material,so who knows what it's impregnated with from its previous life.

[Rich Mueller Sr]

Yea, that phosgene is wicked stuff,I worked in a Chevy dealership, in and after high school, and was working on a car, the guy next to me tuned up a car,then was putting a charge of R12 in it also,the next thing I know was EVERONE clearing the shop,at about that time I got a BIG whiff of this stuff and thought forawhile my lungs where going to be coughed out!!!What happened was the valve on the hose stuck and without the air cleaner on the R12 got sucked into the engine,even clearded out the showroom!! I remember we used brake cleaner that had the Carb tet in it also and wonder how much of that I breathed from 1974-79,you could smell this as soon as it was used in the front of the shop!!