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Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)


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  #1  
Old 09-24-2012, 09:11 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Hi Everyone,
New to the forum and new to old engines. I recently received an old Briggs and Stratton WMB from my Dad. It's kind of interesting as it was an engine he used to play with as a kid. My grandpa found it in a junk yard when my Dad was about 7 years old, and he's had it ever since. (That was about 50 years ago!). I'm very interested in engines in general, and now with this, the old engine bug has bitten me. I've rebuilt a more modern lawn mower engine and consider myself pretty handy. I'm also a mechanical engineer so naturally I'm sucked in by this sort of thing. I do have a few questions about undertaking a full restoration. From searching the forum, I believe I've identified it as a 1939 model, and learned a bit about it. My questions are:

1) Should I tear it down completely and clean and inspect everything internally and externally? If so, are the gaskets, seals, rings etc. still available today, or am I stuck with NOS. Or, since it turns over and supposedly ran when last stored, should I just give it a tune up, clean it and paint it?

2) Gas tank has dents in it. Anyone have a good method for fixing these, or am I better off buying a replacement?

3) I want to repaint it to correct colors. What's the best way to strip it? Glass bead blast it? Chemical stripper? Wire brush? Also, I believe the color scheme was all black with a bluish teal carb. Is this correct?

4) What is the story on the breather? Is it all there? Should I replace the filter material inside somehow?

5) Other than a choke rod, do you see anything missing or incorrect in the pictures?

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but for now I'm most interested in the above, and any other advice for how to tackle this. THANKS!



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Old 09-24-2012, 10:15 PM
ehpower2 ehpower2 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

looks like the only two parts that appear missing or not correct is the breather top and also looks like maybe there is a spring missing for the govener but the carb is in the way.

As for parts NAPA still has some parts for ignition and check the gasket kit for the briggs model N i believe that particular kit has the same gaskets for this motor as they shared some common pieces.
If you look on the bottom sump plate and see rivets it might have a oil pump still in it make sure that is cleaned and is working as there was a service bulletin about that and instructed to change over to a dipper system but the pump from what i have heard still works just fine as long as clean.

As for cleaning the engine look up the electrolysis process and read about it as it works VERY WELL. No pre cleaning required what so ever
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:44 AM
bowtiebutler956 bowtiebutler956 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Looks like a great project you have there! I have a 5 gal. bucket of carb soak I like letting my parts soak in, and after a couple days you can just rinse them off with water, and all the paint, grease, grime just falls off. Now if I'm dealing with rust, I use my sand blasting cabinet. Parts for it can still be found. Just type in WMB on ebay. There is a place on ebay, zkstuff that sells a complete gasket set for them for $15. There is another place (burnzoil) that sells new reproduction fuel tanks for them. If you have a hard time finding anything for it, give Will Woodrow a call at 540-273-7541. He's in the vintage Briggs parts business, and I'm sure he will have or can get you what you need. Look forward to seeing your progress!

Matt
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:06 AM
Grape Grape is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

I second everything already said. I have two of these. both with origional oil pumps. Just keep the insides clean and the pumps will work fine. There should be a spring that hooks to the thumb screw under the carb and the governor vane. I get my spare parts at yard sales and flea markets. I've found a number of "parts engines" for 10 - 15 bucks. Most of the time I end up getting these donor engines running and re-sell or give them away to hobby beginners.
By the way, repro decals can still be had too. I got mine at the Baraboo WI engine show this fall.
Have fun.
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  #5  
Old 09-25-2012, 01:07 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Thanks for the replies thus far. I think I'm going to do it right and tear it down completely so that I can make sure everything is still within spec and that everything looks good internally. I'll be sure to post pics as I go along.
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Old 09-26-2012, 12:55 AM
Don Naismith Don Naismith is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Some quick thoughts

1) Download WMB parts list and operating manual @ http://asecc.com/data/briggs_stratton_ipls.html
Pickup a copy of "Briggs and Stratton Service Manual for Out of Production Engines" on E-bay. Mechanical Engineer? Tear it down. WMB parts and decals show up regularly on E-bay.

2) You can buy a repro tank. Or wait for a NOS to come up on E-bay - might be awhile. Or, cut the bottom off the tank and use a couple pieces of wood to tap the dents out (takes patience) then buy a replacement repro bottom on E-bay and solder it back together. The older Briggs and Stratton fuel tanks were originally soldered together. There's a check valve at the bottom of the fuel pipe going into the gas tank. It will most likely need to be soaked in carb cleaner to free it up.

3) Glass bead blast the engine if that option is available to you. Yes, all black (low gloss (satin) black engine paint) Ever so lightly bead blast the outside of the carb OR soak it in gas and clean it with a tooth brush. I don't believe the carbs were originally painted on the WMB as I've yet to see one that was painted. Gas cap painted red. Oil fill cap painted light blue.

4) Breather assembly is missing the cover. Acquiring just the cover will be challenging. The media in the breather is horse hair. Remove the media, soak it in gas to remove the dried on oil, and set aside to dry. The horse hair seems to hold up well over the years and typically does not need to be replaced.

5) The spark plug wire doesn't appear to be correct. Repro spark plug wires on E-bay. If you replace the spark plug wire, do not solder the new wire to the coil. Instead, run the wire through the coil terminal and bend it around the terminal. If the old spark plug wire is soldered to the coil terminal and you want to replace it, use wire cutters to cut the old wire and solder away from the terminal. Original spark plug was a Champion J-8 though they're getting harder and harder (pricier) to find.
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  #7  
Old 09-26-2012, 11:23 AM
GaryH GaryH is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Here is the link for a way to build a WMB style fuel tank from a later more common type Briggs carb. Prints out larger.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~harg43/tkpg1.jpg

http://home.roadrunner.com/~harg43/tkpg2.jpg

Gary
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:23 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

I started to tear down the engine tonight with what little time I had after work and family. Already have a couple of questions...

The flywheel has two fins broken off. Since they are across from each other I'm assuming they were either broken off by putting something across them to hold the flywheel while removing the nut, or one was broken off, and the other was deliberately broken off to balance it out. How big of an issue is this? Do I need to find a new flywheel? Could a skilled welder reproduce the fins and weld them on?



2nd issue I discovered is that the armature lead connected to the coil is barely hanging on. I thought I read something in the forums about not soldering to this or the ignition ignition coil to the connections on the coil. Is this true? What is the reasoning?




I've already ordered a set of gaskets and decals, and I'm sure I'll need a few more parts by the time I'm done here. Really glad I tore into it though because it's pretty gummed up. My goals is to make this thing as close to perfect as possible.
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  #9  
Old 09-27-2012, 11:04 AM
GaryH GaryH is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

You will be just fine with the flywheel with fins off across from each other. Check the date code, stamped circles, and if close to the S/N date you may want to keep the original wheel. Date code is something like D 38 which = April 1938. Flywheels are a readily available. I get 10 bucks.

The coil wire is never solderd to the coil.

The WMB is basically a 5s with a different carb set up. You will find a dipper oiling set up.

Expect worn rings and if not abused a good cylinder bore.

One problem area is the sealing surface on the crankshaft on the PTO side. Rust builds up not allowing that seal to do its job.

Check the valve settings before teardown to see if you need to correct that. Valve installation is your first task on assembley after getting the gap correct. No real need to remove the camshaft.

Gary

Gary
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  #10  
Old 09-27-2012, 04:41 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryH View Post
You will be just fine with the flywheel with fins off across from each other. Check the date code, stamped circles, and if close to the S/N date you may want to keep the original wheel. Date code is something like D 38 which = April 1938. Flywheels are a readily available. I get 10 bucks.

The coil wire is never solderd to the coil.

The WMB is basically a 5s with a different carb set up. You will find a dipper oiling set up.

Expect worn rings and if not abused a good cylinder bore.

One problem area is the sealing surface on the crankshaft on the PTO side. Rust builds up not allowing that seal to do its job.

Check the valve settings before teardown to see if you need to correct that. Valve installation is your first task on assembley after getting the gap correct. No real need to remove the camshaft.

Gary

Gary
Thanks Gary. Couple of followup questions:
The date code on the flywheel is A 48. I'm not sure how to decipher, but I'm assuming the 48 is for 1948. My serial is 15400 (or at least the plate and shroud is), which if the information I found was correct, correlates to 1939, so it looks like this wouldn't be the original flywheel. Would you agree with this assessment? Are there any other date stamps on the engine? I'm curious to see if it really is a 39, or if its a mix of parts.I know for sure this thing hasn't been touched for 45 years, so any mixing and matching took place before that.

The coil wire is indeed soldered to the coil. Since it's not original, I'm guessing someone did this many years ago. Would I damage it by trying to go in and melt the solder to remove?Is it the heat that is the concern when soldering at the coil?

Finally, the seal at the crankshaft. The parts diagram I have shows it as a bushing and an oil seal. I'm assuming these should be fairly easy to source. Would you recommend replacement or just clean up and reuse?

I ordered the Briggs antique engine repair manual. Looking forward to seeing what information it holds.

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

Oops! Just saw that Don N. responded about the soldered wire to the coil. Thanks guys. I'm going to cut it off and use a new repro. wire off ebay.
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  #11  
Old 09-27-2012, 09:50 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Continued breaking things down tonight. The connecting rod bearing surfaces is scored so I'm guessing I'm going to need a new one. The surfaces on the crankshaft look fine. I'll need to clean everything up and measure to see if everything is still in spec.

I took a look at the valve clearances, and the intake is way off, it's almost .020". Exhaust is maybe just a hair large. Should I get everything cleaned and remeasure before I go looking for new valves? It looks like there could be some carbon buildup that could be holding the valves open.

Anyone know how to remove the camshaft? Looks like there is some sort of pin or something. My repair manual hasn't arrived yet, but I would like to keep moving forward.
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  #12  
Old 09-27-2012, 10:58 PM
bowtiebutler956 bowtiebutler956 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Make sure that the intake valve is not being held open first. If not you may need a valve, but I would have the valve, and seat ground first as this will close the gap. The pin that hold the cam in is accesable from outside the block. You will need to remove the mag plate first, then you can take a punch, and drive it out from the pto side towards the flywheel side.

Matt
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Old 09-28-2012, 10:55 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

I just recieved my repair manual and it mentions that chrome rings are available for most models and to see "bulletin 479". The chrome rings are supposedly .005 over standard and dont require honing. Could they really still be selling these or is it just that it was written long ago and hasnt been updated? Anyone have bulletin 479? I haven't measured the cylinder yet, but new rings are on the list and so far ive only found the standard non chrome rings. Just having a part number might do wonders for finding some.

Everything is torn down and soaking in some cleaner right now.
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:21 AM
bowtiebutler956 bowtiebutler956 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

I don't think your going to find any chrome rings for it, but the cast iron ones work great. You need to hone the cylinder when installing new rings, but the cast iron rings break in much faster than chrome, and although chrome can last longer, its not like this engine is going to be put back to working long, hard hours. You can buy the rings you need on ebay for less than $20. Your WMB uses the same rings my N's do.

Matt
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:50 AM
GaryH GaryH is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

It is obvious someone changed the flywheel or tag. Probably the wheel. It is rare to find them matched up and they can very quite a bit, either way. Can't explain that one. The WMBs were very similar throughout production.

Do you have 1 "fillister" screw and a dipper screw combo on the rod ?
I did find a note of another dipper set up on a very early production WMB that I observed.

If the valve seats look good you could hand seat / grind the intake back to specs. A new [ longer ] exhaust valve would take care of that one. Carefully grind the stem to get your clearance. If you are lucky enough to have someone local that can deal with such small seats that may be cheaper in the long run. Assuming the lifters were marked on removal.

Gary
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Old 09-29-2012, 12:16 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

The rod did have the bolt with the dipper rod as part of the bolt end and a standard bolt on the other side. Does this indicate vintage? I see the two dipper types on the parts diagram. On a related note, I did find a NOS connecting rod to replace the scored one I have, it comes with the separate bent dipper piece. Is one better than the other? Seems like the bent plate design would be more affective.

I just measured up the crankshaft journals and they are measuring up exactly nominal with what the manual shows for reject sizes. I used a decent micrometer so I'm confident in the measurements. Anyone know what the original nominal measurements would have been? Am I ok since I'm not technically below the reject size? When i measure the areas of the crankshaft that are not journal surfaces, they measure the same, so I'm almost thinking that the reject sizes they have shown are actually the original nominal dimension.

Cam measurements were all well above reject size.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:59 AM
GaryH GaryH is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Briggs surely thought the bent dipper style was better so I am going with them. In all the WMBs I have torn down I don't remember seeing more than one or two of that last style so it must have been later production. That close to 20 year production run was a very long one for Briggs in those days.

I belive the reject sizes are also the nominal dimension. Assume you are using .747" for the journal and .8736" for the mains. Now that you know the crank is round get some green plastigauge and ck clearance. .0015" would be ideal but rarely seen, 002" would be great. At .003" I would not worry on a show engine but be mildy concerned if workin it hard. Having said that I have never worked one very hard. I bet with 30W oil you would be ok even at .004".

Gary
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Old 09-30-2012, 02:16 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Is a slightly scored piston still useable?(see picture below) There is one groove that catches my fingernail, the rest aren't very deep. I'm not sure how sensitive these engines are to such things. The bore still looks really good and measures up good too.
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:02 PM
bowtiebutler956 bowtiebutler956 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

That piston looks pretty rough, but with new ring on a fresh honed cylinder it would probabally be ok. There is a guy on ebay selling a brand new Briggs WMB piston with rings for $35. A new set of ring will set you back $20, so this really would be a good deal for you. Then you would know its right. Just go to ebay, and type in Briggs WMB Piston.

Matt
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:16 PM
prig0026 prig0026 is offline
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Default Re: Briggs WMB Restoration Questions (Pics!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtiebutler956 View Post
That piston looks pretty rough, but with new ring on a fresh honed cylinder it would probabally be ok. There is a guy on ebay selling a brand new Briggs WMB piston with rings for $35. A new set of ring will set you back $20, so this really would be a good deal for you. Then you would know its right. Just go to ebay, and type in Briggs WMB Piston.

Matt
Yeah, I think you are right. I can't stand doing things half correct. Just wish I didn't have to spend the money. I ordered the new piston and rings. Also picked up some engine enamel today, plan is to prep and paint this week and then final assembly as the parts come in. Need to get the painting in before it gets too cold.
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