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Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch


Hello, Headed to Home Depot to get my wiring. Kpack gave me a great Onan remote start switch combo...

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  #21  
Old 03-02-2013, 04:31 PM
Ed Sparks Ed Sparks is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

With that many bends it will be tough.
Take your shop vac and tape it over one end with duct tape.
Then get a ball of contractors nylon twine. Put a small piece of cloth tied to a knot on the end.
Turn on the vac, drop the cloth on string in the other end. Allow the vac to suck the light twine through. Might take a little tug back every now & then to get it to suck all the way through the bends.
Once you have the twine through, tie a piece of nylon rope to the twine and pull it through.
Now tie tape the wires to the nylon rope in a staggered run so they are fastened securely and gently pull them while having someone feed the wires into the conduit from the bell end.
I have pulled thousands of feet of wires this way.
Some of the runs I've done are several hundred feet up to a thousand feet with 2-0 cables.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:23 PM
Jack Hottel Jack Hottel is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

If not in the same conduit with power wires, thermostat wire would be OK. When with power wires all insulation must be rated for powerline voltages.
I am assuming you have 900-0184, Service Manual YD Generators and Controls. The wiring diagrams for the aircooled J units are on pages 75 and 76, the only difference being the presence or absence of the low oil pressure switch, S4, and the Emergency Relay (LOP), K14. The remote Start/Stop switch will connect to Terminal Barrier Strip TB11. TB11 is located high in the control box, above the heat sink for the charging diode. From exhaust side to carb side TB11 terminals are: B+(Fused), Ground(1), Stop(2), Start(3). This covers everything for your remote panel except the running light. That should be connected TB12-4, which powers the ignition and gas valve, and is energized when the engine is running.
Also the starter shuts down when the Centrifugal Switch, S1, makes as the engine comes up to speed. Around 900 RPM I think.
Good luck on your fishing. Mice have also been used.
Jack Hottel
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  #23  
Old 03-02-2013, 07:22 PM
AndersonMillTexas AndersonMillTexas is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Ed Sparks, I like your idea with the vavuum. I have fishing line and a styrofoam ball. This should work. I will not need to buy anything.

Jack,
I appreciate giving me the locals for those connections. It is better then fussing with the schematic. My reading vision is worsening and I get head aches with that small print.

I called the pet store and they said they will not take the mouse back after I used it.
I wonder how they would know? I suppose I could just tell them it was the wrong color and size

i am looking forward to make my new attempt tomorrow.
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  #24  
Old 03-02-2013, 08:51 PM
Daverepair Daverepair is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Always run either an extra couple of wires or a piece or non rotting rope/twine along with your wires. Never know what the future brings. Might want to run 120 back out for an outlet or heater.
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  #25  
Old 03-02-2013, 10:49 PM
DriverR DriverR is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hottel View Post
If not in the same conduit with power wires, thermostat wire would be OK. When with power wires all insulation must be rated for powerline voltages.Jack Hottel
I agree with Jack. Do not run single conductor DC wiring in conduit with AC. At the minimum with 4 conductors, jacketed wiring for the DC should be used withe the appropriate V rating.
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  #26  
Old 03-02-2013, 10:55 PM
Ed Sparks Ed Sparks is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Be careful not to get the styrofoam ball stuck . Thats why I suggested a small piece of cloth. You have to go through 4 90 degree fittings. We only use 45 degree turns or long sweep 90's.

Also we always run low voltage control wires in separate conduit from AC line voltage.
Easier to pull that way. The amount of force needed for pulling large gauge wire ,can damage small wires.
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  #27  
Old 03-03-2013, 10:22 AM
John Ward John Ward is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

As stated Code requires all wire run in the same conduit to have the same line voltage rating, typically 600v. Plus running low voltage wires with line voltage can induce signals into the low voltage wiring. If it is a DC wire or a resistance wire that can be more of a problem. I ALWAYS run a separate conduit for my control wires. And if 18ga thermostat wire is used I would pull 18-8 t'stat wire so you will have spare conductors. Keep in mind it is solid wire and not as forgiving as stranded wire. just my $.015
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  #28  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:16 AM
Xeonpony Xeonpony is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

and don't forget you are only alloewd X number of current carrying conducters for a given conduit, with out looking to be sure but I think you all ready there with 3/4 non metalic conduit.

Do not use fishing line! nastiness will ensue! Use only a 1/8 Nylon rope! (Fishing line will cut into your hand or break, the nylon may be streatchy but has huge tensile strength and soft on the hands as well as non rotting!.

I'll dig out the code book after the first coffe keep in mind though it is for us wierd dog owning Canadians where the penguins like to chew on our wiring it will be pretty well the exact same for you guys though with minor diff's more or less
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  #29  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:38 AM
Ed Sparks Ed Sparks is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

I use nylon contractors twine to suck through with the vacuum, then tie that to 1/4 in nylon for pull rope.
I also have a spool of phone company fish tape that is flat nylon woven 1/2 in wide. Must be about 800 feet on the spool.
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  #30  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:01 PM
AndersonMillTexas AndersonMillTexas is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

[QUOTE=Xeonpony;886272]

I'll dig out the code book after the first coffe keep in mind though it is for us wierd dog owning Canadians where the penguins like to chew on our wiring

Thank you,Xeonpony.

The have a big chart at the home depot posting how many wires and gauge for a particular size of conduit.

I can squeeze (8) 8 ga in a 1" conduit. I will only use (4)

Ed,
The reason I thought I would use 100 pound fishing line was because I have it. I would tie the 1/4 inch rope to that and use that rope to pull my wires.
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  #31  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:27 PM
Xeonpony Xeonpony is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

there is an amp rating there too they are missing. # of cunducters @ A load = Number of current carrying cunducters allowd

Ok so if you are using split phase you have 2 current carrying cunducters @ 8Awg, I need the max amps the gen set can source
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  #32  
Old 03-03-2013, 12:43 PM
AndersonMillTexas AndersonMillTexas is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

The max the gen put out is 7500
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  #33  
Old 03-03-2013, 01:05 PM
Xeonpony Xeonpony is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

ok for one run of 3/4" at 30c you are good for your fill rating at no more then 4 total conducters.

Types:RW75, TW75, R90, RW90, T90 nylon are rated for 45A in a race way or conduit

All so you are at your max fill for a standered rectangular style outled J box so basicaly your 4 cunducter 8awg run is a dedicated run pretty much.

So basicaly your start stop and monitoring cabals will need theire own run then follow any other branch runs need their own dedicated run.

Any consolation even if you used bigger conduit you'd be in the same boat! So good thing you did make multiple runs!. My future advise though for 8Guage never use less then 1" conduit, stuff aint to flexible! and wide swept bends are a must. 3/4 is more of 10 guage and down or signaling conduit.

I general deal with 3/4 to 1-1/4 inch with 2 guage cables!, I have a run of 250kcmill now that is BIG wire! Tech-90 is your friend here as it is direct barial rated wire pricy but well well worth it.

---------- Post added at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

O and at 30A 240V at 60 feet (I included lead in lead out) you only see 1.17% Vdrop So you are well within all codes. so you shouldn't have any issues at all.

But like I said treat the 8 guage as a dedicated run with it's own boxes up to the point it joins the gen set/transfer switch if in place/ breaker box
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  #34  
Old 03-03-2013, 03:16 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Here I think USA NEC code says separate the power and control wires by ~2feet, so you don't get currents/voltages induced on the control wires from currents/voltages on the power wires. But I'm guessing on only a 50ft run it will be ok.

As a technical issue if the pipes are already underground and you have interference between the two, twist the control wires together ( like cat 5 computer wires) to minimize magneticly induced currents and use a sheild control cable to stop capacitively coupled voltages.

Also when you pull the wires thru plastic pipe, pull SLOWLY the rope can heat and cut through plastic pipe and wire insulation, seen it happen, especially on curves and elbows.

**********************
I ran some numbers for resistance of 100ft run (50ft each way) of various gauges copper wire, based on resistivity of copper. If you meanure your relay current you can caluclate voltage drop from this. I see that even if your relays draw 1 amp an 18 gauge wire would only have a .623 Volt drop along the wire.

wire .......ohms
gauge ....per 100ft
===================
18 ,,,,,,,, 0.623
16 ,,,,,,,, 0.39
14 ,,,,,,,, 0.246
12 ,,,,,,,, 0.155
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  #35  
Old 03-03-2013, 04:22 PM
AndersonMillTexas AndersonMillTexas is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Len,

Thank you.
These numbers seem negligible. I have no way to measure dc amp draw. Most meters including mine are for ac amps only. The schematic does not indicate. and the relay only shows maximum.

I may dedicate one conduit for all low volt low draw circuits (as I mentioned earlier).

I will stuff several thermostat wires in there. Maybe some 16ga and 20ga. I am wondering if the thermostat wire woold also work just as fine with the alarm system and future monitoring devices.

My intentions are to place sensors on the gen or other things in my shed. I will eventually want to play around ( all of this is playing)with one of those stamp chips and be able to monitor things from my lap top. I have 100's of feet of telephone wire and alarm wire which are all likley candidates. The price is right on thermostat wire. I never did like the 22 gauge stuff.
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  #36  
Old 03-04-2013, 06:36 AM
Kevin K Kevin K is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by andersonmilltexas View Post
I have no way to measure dc amp draw.
Are you sure? Even the $3 Harbor Freight meters have a current function. Or are you referring to a clamp on meter?

If you already have the wire, simply hook the start/stop switch to one end, connect the other end to your generator, place the voltage probes of your meter across the ground and start terminals on the generator where you connected your wire, press the start button, and read the voltage drop across the switch and wire. Do this, of course, before you pull the wire.
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:06 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

I am with Ed on the vacuum and using something soft like a cotton ball.

For string, I have used the plastic tie down cord you get for free from HD or lowes. It is smooth very strong light weight plastic cord.
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  #38  
Old 03-04-2013, 04:11 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

I used the rag method for 1-st line, then pulled larger line, less risk than styrofoam ball.

Seen some 12V relays for cars draw 1 amp coil current (a real current hog). They look about same as in J series Onan gens, large steel cans. Other newer ones, like in Onan Emerald gens have a 300 ohm coil and draw ~ .04 amps, (plastic case relay 3/4" x 1/2 x 1/2). I would measure your coil ohms or curent. And plan a voltage drop budget.

Would worry just a little about combining alarm circuits with others, alarm panels only send ~.005 to .010 amps down zone circuits. And sense them with a microprocessor, wouldn't take much to false alarm it. Twisting the alarm wire will help eliminate wiring magnetic transients from coupling into alarm wires. I also used sheilded cable to eliminate capacitive voltage coupling. If your playing with Stamp I would pay alot of attention to protecting the I/O from static, wiring induced transients.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:21 PM
Leon N. Leon N. is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

Have you considered using direct buried wiring? Why mess with conduits? You would only need small lengths where the wiring penetrates the building. I contacted a wire distributor in Boston and picked up some 400 feet of 1/0 aluminum direct buried cable that was an odd end of spool length when I did my installation. .
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:44 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Recommendation Wire Gauge for Remote Start Switch

I ran more numbers for resistance of 100ft run (50ft each way) of various gauges copper wire, based on resistivity of copper.

If relays draw 1 amp I wouldn't go less than 18 gauge. 5% max volt loss comes to mind as a wiring rule of thumb.
If draw one amp thru 100ft of 18 gauge you drop .623 volts, which is 5.2% of 12V.
As a comparison 15 amps thru 14 gauge would drop 3.7V which is only 3% of 120 volts.

wire .......ohms
gauge ....per 100ft
===================
24 ,,,,,,,, 2.51
22 ,,,,,,,, 1.58
20 ,,,,,,,, 0.99
18 ,,,,,,,, 0.623
16 ,,,,,,,, 0.39
14 ,,,,,,,, 0.246
12 ,,,,,,,, 0.155
10 ,,,,,,,, 0.0975
8 ,,,,,,,,,, 0.0612
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