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Steam Stationary Engines, Traction Engines, Steam Boats

Bottle Frame Steam Engine


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  #1  
Old 11-10-2013, 11:01 PM
Dondon Dondon is offline
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Default Bottle Frame Steam Engine

I am in the process of restoring a , I believe, a Donegan & Swift bottle frame engine. I have more questions than space is available so I'll start with a couple of easy ones. First, the steam lubricator looks like a McCoy on the outside but does not have any of the McCoy internal parts. It is a brass cylinder with a 1/2 male npt on the bottom, a cap on top with a hex and spanner posts. It is center drilled for an 8/32 screw but the threaded hole is blind. On the side, at the bottom is a compression fitting for a 1/4" tube. Looking inside there is a small disc cast into the container over the hole above the 1/2 npt fitting. Wondering how the lubricator works. Second question, after I complete the work on the engine, it will most likely not be run. What is the best way to preserve the cylinder bore and piston?
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2013, 11:17 PM
cyberbadger cyberbadger is online now
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

Dondon,

1) Pictures of the lubricator would be helpful.

2) If the engine will not be run after you refurbish it as you say, I'd spray LPS-3 on the the inside.

LPS-3 is used by military's, navy's, off the coast oil refineries, aviation companys around the world to preserve equipment.

I've only used the aerosol version, but it sprays like an oil and then forms a waxy coating.

You can get it from mcmaster or other suppliers.

-CB
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  #3  
Old 11-10-2013, 11:28 PM
Mike G Mike G is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

I second the LPS3. I use it on my Myrick Eclipse oilfield engine. It doesn't have a drop of paint on it and has been cleaned to bare cast. It can be out in the rain at a show all day and no rust ever forms. Doesn't wash off like oil. I bought a gallon can and usually brush it on. The aerosols always seem to run out of propellant before I can use all of the product!

Mike
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:31 AM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

I buy LPS3 in gallon containers. Love it. I find it too heavy for spray can, and too expensive and too wasteful. It works great, hands down better than transmission fluid or any other product like rustlick. better than heavy messy coat of grease, for anything but deep and forgotten storage.

I also use LPS2, a lighter shorter term product that seems more like 50/50 lubricate and protect. That works a lot better as a spray. Not cheap, but IMHO a better candidate for a spray product.

And old school restoration 'trick' was hot wax over rusty surfaces to get a pleasing old patina look. LPS3 is close to wax in properties and a fast method of gettign that old look that took many hours with old wax method.

These days everything is harmful. One a scale of 1-10, where water is a 10 (harmless) I would put LPS3 as an 8. I never wear gloves. Dont wash my hands in the stuff, but I would think it as safe as motor oil or tranny fluid. Unfortunately human skin is very porous, so any product will get in your system if you let it. So,... there may still be a place for natural beeswax based products. There is some wood working stuff I use occasionally ... forget the brand and it is not pure either. Actually as an experiment looked pretty good on some rusted iron.

---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

Can you post a picture of the lubricator. I have a McCoy and never seen another one. IMHO, that would be worthy of a new thread if you dont mind.

or pictures, please.

Oh, I am sorry I missed you first question. I use LPS3 externally. For internal use Steam Cylinder Oil (600w) is absolutely they one and only best & proper treatement for inside the cylinder and valve. It last for ever, with an "!". And it is actually the right stuff. That is sold in 5 gallon cans and that has been a lifetime supply for me. You cannot een make a pretense of being a steam person with out cylinder oil.
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:08 PM
Dondon Dondon is offline
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Default Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

To all who replied to my first post, thank you!!
I've taken a couple of pics of the lubricator that I mentioned in my previous post.

I took another look at the threaded hole in the cap today. There may be a broken needle in the center of the threaded hole. I tried to punch it out this evening, without success. The overall height of the oiler is ca. six inches and ca. two inches in dia. As I previously stated, there is a small disc cast into the bottom of the cylinder located above the hole that leads to the 1/2 male npt.
Again, trying to understand how this lubricator functions. I was only able to upload one pic??????
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  #6  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:35 PM
cyberbadger cyberbadger is online now
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Default Re: Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

I could be wrong, but I do not think this lubricator was meant for a steam engine.

The tell tail sign is that the bottom of the lubricator goes to the engine.

That's not generally how steam hydrostatic lubricators work.

They work on the simple premise that oil floats on water. And secondarily, steam will condense back to water. So typically the bottom of a steam hydrostatic lubricator is a drain to let you get rid of steam that has condensed into water. The outlet to an engine or steam line is at the top of the lubricator. Steam goes in, condenses into water and pushes steam cylinder oil back into the engine or steam line.

-CB
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2013, 10:51 PM
Joseph Graziana Joseph Graziana is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbadger View Post
I could be wrong, but I do not think this lubricator was meant for a steam engine.

The tell tail sign is that the bottom of the lubricator goes to the engine.

That's not generally how steam hydrostatic lubricators work.

They work on the simple premise that oil floats on water. And secondarily, steam will condense back to water. So typically the bottom of a steam hydrostatic lubricator is a drain to let you get rid of steam that has condensed into water. The outlet to an engine or steam line is at the top of the lubricator. Steam goes in, condenses into water and pushes steam cylinder oil back into the engine or steam line.

-CB
CB I think we are going to have steam school in Rushville this coming year I hope to see you in The FRONT ROW. That is a lubricator not a hydrostatic because it does not need water. It is filled with oil and at the bottom should be a handle to open a small amount while the engines is running to let the oil run in the pipe.
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  #8  
Old 11-11-2013, 11:35 PM
cyberbadger cyberbadger is online now
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Default Re: Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Graziana View Post
CB I think we are going to have steam school in Rushville this coming year I hope to see you in The FRONT ROW. That is a lubricator not a hydrostatic because it does not need water. It is filled with oil and at the bottom should be a handle to open a small amount while the engines is running to let the oil run in the pipe.
Joe,

I won't be at your school, but thanks for the offer.

You can school me now though.

I know it's a lubricator of some type of engine, I just don't think for steam. I maybe completely wrong.

-CB
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2013, 12:15 AM
Joseph Graziana Joseph Graziana is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbadger View Post
Joe,

I won't be at your school, but thanks for the offer.

You can school me now though.

I know it's a lubricator of some type of engine, I just don't think for steam. I maybe completely wrong.

-CB
Your WRONG they made all kinds but you need to come to steam school BAD.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2013, 12:30 AM
cyberbadger cyberbadger is online now
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Default Re: Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Graziana View Post
Your WRONG they made all kinds but you need to come to steam school BAD.
Joe G,

Just tell me how this lubricator works!

You told me that a steam injector couldn't put water back into a boiler into the steam space.

I did it myself on my small setup, and others pointed out that it was done on steam locomotives.

I'm not going a steam school that is headed by you that doesn't understand how things work.

-CB
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2013, 09:06 AM
Joe K Joe K is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame engine, Lubricator

Joe G and I have had our er, differences before, but in this we agree.

This is a gut level "gravity" steam lubricator. Simply a closed vessel into which steam oil is placed with a valve at the bottom.

You place oil in the top. Then close the top. Then opening the valve at the bottom equalizes pressure between the steam chest (where these usually placed) and the vessel itself. Once pressure is equalized, the oil runs by gravity down into the steam chest. Joe G says to "crack" the lower valve and this true - otherwise a "slug fest" of oil coming down into the steam chest.

Many manufacturers made these. Mine is a Lunkenheimer which a little more decorative and available in many sizes.

Mostly these were used on "occasional" steam users like steam pumps. It's the steam oil equivalent of "giving it a shot with the oilcan" for a regular bearing.

Here is a pix of the Lunkenheimer version (upside down)



Hope this helps,
Joe K
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:33 AM
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Gary K Gary K is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

CB:
Some were made like this:

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Old 11-12-2013, 12:10 PM
cyberbadger cyberbadger is online now
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

Well I'm going to have to look again at two lubricators I have that I thought were only for hit or miss.

Thanks Joe and Gary.

-CB
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Jeff Smith Jeff Smith is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

Dondon,

As a kid it only took me once to learn to remember to close the bottom valve before you open the top.......

I didn't close the valve and the pressure blew oil everywhere and I was cleaning everything within about 12'......

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Old 11-12-2013, 01:12 PM
Dan Donaldson Dan Donaldson is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

How many pounds pressure are these good for?
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  #16  
Old 11-12-2013, 02:57 PM
Joseph Graziana Joseph Graziana is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

Dan They were made and used on engines from new so I think they were good for a new engine pressure. I have never heard of any blowing up and most of them were on the steam chest.
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:21 PM
Dondon Dondon is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

The schematic you posted cause me to take a second look at my lubricator and sure enough the nut on the side bottom is a packing nut for a needle valve of some sort. Of course this leaves my device without a condensate drain. I still don't understand why there is a seemingly blind threaded hole in the cap. I'll need to determine the thread pitch and size of the valve stem and then play around with the shape of the valve plug. I was thinking about threading a wooden dowel into the thread and the measuring the resultant thread ...Any other thoughts???
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Old 11-12-2013, 05:47 PM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

I was looking at Dondon's oil and did not know what it was. With limited photo, no comment on the interior and my own limited experience not able to recognize enough. I was not aware of the design posted by GaryK. It now seems possible that Dondon has either a plain old gravity oiler or a displacement type of the design posted by GaryK? My bet displacement.

I like to post a few images and briefly discuss each. Don can look inside
his or post more images inside and out, macro lens setting - or sketch.

I. First is a McNabb&Harlan and it works along the lines of GaryK's post. When I look inside I can see the tube. Steam entry is simple, unlike the tricky design GaryK posted. But; from certain angle and bad photo is might be taken for a gravity feed oiler. I understand a displacement oiler uses gravity too, but you see in my next few pictures where here steam condensation is required for displacement it is of no consequence in a gravity feed type. Its a wall hangar for me.

II. and III. Next two are examples of simple, gravity feed steam capable lubricators. Operator just opens the valve and oil runs down. they are under pressure. Oil is heavier than steam so it just runs down, with little control and typically no site glass. The application these days is for an initial shot of oil during start up. Very simple and for a novice might not even be recognized as a steam oiler. In fact, they dont need steam and can be used on many applications. As for max pressure, that would be in the mfg data sheet or catalog.

IV. A Lunkenheimer Banner. The best darn steam engine lubricator in the whole world. IMHO. 100% dependable, does not relay on any physics except gravity. Oil is heavier than steam so it drops down. In drops, not a glob-glob dribble like II and III. The drops can be seen and drop rate adjusted. easy to isolate and refill. 100% dependable. No sweating the leaks or finicky details. if there is any condensation, no care. it just drops out with the oil. All you need is planet earth under the engine. And I suppose some heat so the 600W will flow.

The lubricators shown in pic I and IV are best located on the steam line prior to the engine throttle or shutoff valve. The type in Pic II and III are normally placed on the valve chest. Picture I is a displacement type and II,III and IV only require a sizable planet underneath.
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Old 11-12-2013, 06:05 PM
Joe K Joe K is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

Um. Peter. Check the application of that "Banner" lubricator.

Information online at http://books.google.com/books?id=BOQ...atalog&f=false indicates that "Banner" is aimed at air compressor service. "Major" is the lubricator you want for steam service - and maybe you have?

Best regards,
Joe K

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------

Heh. Read the descriptions of the Banner and Major lubricators. Major appears to be a displacement type lubricator. ("Adjust flow to keep up with condensation") Banner appears to be a "gravity feed on steroids" (adjust flow rate with valve)

Both use the Fig. 488 bulls eye so pressure rating is likely the same.

So maybe either can be used on steam service?

Joe K
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Old 11-12-2013, 06:06 PM
Dondon Dondon is offline
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Default Re: Bottle Frame Steam Engine

I don't think my lubricator is a displacement type. The only thing inside is a disc like structure cast into the body. U believe the valve seat is milled into the disc, which may actually be a solid cylinder as I can only view it from the top.
Sounds like you are a Lunkenheimer fan. My first airplane, a 1940 Aeronca had a Lunkenheimer primer. I wonder if they are still in busimess?
Back in the day, the McCoy was considered the Cadillac of lubricators, at least that is what I've surmised from my internet searches. The story of Mr. McCoy is also quite interesting. Search McCoy and you will find numerous references to the "Real McCoy"
Thanks again to all for your posts and insights.
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