John Deere D Fuel

When I was a kid, The neighbor had a J.D. "D" farm tractor. It started on gasoline, and when warmed up was changed over to "oil". Here's the point of my question. I remember a "unique" exhaust odor. I have attended several shows at Portland, Ind. and other shows where old tractors were running. Q: where did that special odor go? Dave in Holt.

Some old tractors, and engines were started on gasoline, then changed over to kerosene. The smell you remember was from the kerosene. Most folks just stick to gasoline these days. From what I've read, kerosene was cheaper than gasoline back in those days.

The burning of heavy fuels in a GAS engine does give the exhaust its own "flavor". Bear in mind the ONLY reason these fuels were used was because they were cheaper than gasoline.....PERIOD. It was much different, too, then as these tractors when started for the day probably WORKED for the day. Much different than parading around at idle at a show where crankcse oil dilution and fouled sparkplugs would be guaranteed.

Over here it was called vapourising oil or tvo if it was used in a tractor. It is not exactly the same as kero it is a slightly different brew.

Gas/kero or petrol/tvo engines run a lower compression ratio than straight gas or petrol engines.

The inlet manifold was also heated from the exhaust and shielded in some way to keep the heat in the manifold to vapourise the tvo.

Quite often when running a tvo engine on straight gas after a short while (especially in warmer climates) the inlet manifold is too warm and evaporates the petrol before it gets into the combustion chamber making the engine a non runner

The first Grey Fergie's to come out in 1946 were fitted with a continental gas engine and a common conversion was to fit a spacer with a head gasket top and bottom to the engine (this lowered the compression ratio to run on tvo). A heat exchanger manifold (vapouriser) was also fitted along with a petrol/tvo fuel tank.

Simon, in wet and windy Scotland, trying to avoid decorating the house.

Back in the mid 50's I can remember watching dad start his old 2 speed D JD and can also remember that kind of sweet smell of the exhaust. Dad said he burned distilate fuel and if I remember right, he said it was a combination of gasoline and kerosene. He would start that old D and he would put me on the top of the transmission case and we would go plowing. I think that sweet smell has stayed in my blood to this day.

We had a '36 D that we always ran on Kerosene when we plowed. Dad said it had more power with Kerosene. There was a small separate gas tank (about a gallon) on the back of the main tank which we filled with Kerosene when we were going to work it hard.

It also had a small valve that would add radiator water to the mixture.

We always shut off the fuel to stop it at the end of the day, Dad always made it a point to switch it over to Gas first or it would be a bear to start when it got cold.

We always put a coffee can over the exhaust pipe to keep water out. As it started running out of fuel it would coast a few cycles and i'd put the can on. She would always blow it off 20 or 30 feet into the air when she had gathered enough fuel to fire one more time.

I think you mixup gas and kero tank. The small tank was for gasoline. The small gasoline tank would deliver more power than the large kero tank. I think anyway, thats the reality of the two fuels. Think about it, since the kero was cheeper, if it really delivered more power too, that what he (and eveyone else)would have run all the time. Kero is a real low grade engine fuel. Cheep was its only virtue.

Yes, I have 14 JD's of my own, and they had a small tank in the back for gasoline to start on, and a larger tank for (on old D's) Kerosene. When running on Kero, you had to open a valve leading to the carb to meter in a little water to stop "Preignition" or Pinging. The Kero burns very dry and hot, and the water helped. On later JD's they still had two tanks, but not so much for kero as for Distillate or Power Fuel. This was a mix of Gasoline, Kero, Diesel, whatever they had that was cheap. It was 2nd grade stuff that would burn, but wouldn't start the tractor. With adequate heat (min 190 deg), the tractors ran fine on it, and it was cheaper than high grade gasoline. For fun once, I ran my 10hp Stover on "Parts Cleaner Solvent" from my work. Started it on gas and switched over. It ran great, and had a really interesting smell, but the solvent washed all the oil out of the cylinder and I had to run the oiler at 3 times the drips per min to keep it lubed. I bet that this was a problem in the old days too, since kero will do the same thing.

David In KCK

Injecting water into the combustion chamber of the older kero engines actually helped to raise the compression since the water cannot be compressed it takes up space in the combustion chamber makes the air denser and raises the compression enough to fire the low grade kero and keep the plug from fouling.

Dave, I too remember riding on the gear case. It seemed quite large back then. Dave in Holt.

In 1827 gas was 7 cents, Kero was 1&1/2. Adding water does 3 things - 1) cools the intake charge, prevents pre-ignition. 2) under compression and heat, breaks down into its componants - Oxygen and Hydrogen, which also cools the charge. 3) after ignition, it burns as fuel, adding power. 4) after burning it recreats water which cools the valves and combustion chamber. Neat huh! When properly adjusted and the engine is good and hot, you can burn up to 25% water, saving 1/4 of your fuel, and you get a 10% power addition, over straight kero use.

A few water injection kits are sold over here and every now and then a car comes out with water injection.

Ever noticed your car seems to go better on a cool and misty day.

Simon

Originally Posted by Joseph Musser

Injecting water into the combustion chamber of the older kero engines actually helped to raise the compression since the water cannot be compressed it takes up space in the combustion chamber makes the air denser and raises the compression enough to fire the low grade kero and keep the plug from fouling.

That would be slightly true if water vapor couldn't be condensed, but like any gas/vapor, it can. You might be more along the lines of thought of raising the octane rating, but realistically, the water served only to dampen the incandescent, high molecular weight soot particles that floated around in the chamber after the exhaust stroke. These glowing particles would preignite the fuel mix as the fuel vapor started to be compressed, reeking havoc on the valve train, manifold, and probably pistons.

Originally Posted by Andrew Mackey

In 1827 gas was 7 cents, Kero was 1&1/2. Adding water does 3 things - 1) cools the intake charge, prevents pre-ignition. 2) under compression and heat, breaks down into its componants - Oxygen and Hydrogen, which also cools the charge. 3) after ignition, it burns as fuel, adding power. 4) after burning it recreats water which cools the valves and combustion chamber. Neat huh! When properly adjusted and the engine is good and hot, you can burn up to 25% water, saving 1/4 of your fuel, and you get a 10% power addition, over straight kero use.

Point 2 is not true whatsoever. The only way water can be split into oxygen and hydrogen is by electrolysis, by action by an enzyme (as in the body), or passage over a catalyst. Compression (raising the pressure) only enables a vapor to return to liquid state if the temperature is low enough. Raising the temperature simultaneously keeps the compressed vapor as a vapor. I would be surprised if you could add 25% water vapor to fuel mix as vaporizing water remove a tremendous amount of heat from it's surroundings (the nearby fuel vapor). I won't say it can't be done, but I'd be surprised with a fuel, such as kerosene, which requires so much heat to be vaporized. Under no circumstances whatsoever does adding water vapor add power, it allows you to produce power by preventing the pre-ignition condition, but that's all.

[Inter Bloke]

The water did cool the inside of the cylinder though, stoping the detonation that was prevelent back in those days. An old feller I knew used to work a Rummley, and because they had an oil filled cooling system and very high compresion ratio, they ran very hot like 300 pluss degrees when working. He reconed if you ran out of water, you couldn't even drive it home. He said that it used 50 gallons of water a day. I wont vouch for that, but he did know a lot about them.

[Craig A]

I don't doubt for a second that a D working all day long would consume 50 gallons of water. The only PROBLEM with that, in a D anyway, is that the water comes from the cooling system, UNlike a Rumely which carries a separate water tank.
That said, THINK about what is IN the water you are running across the valves and through the cylinders: Lime, Iron and god knows what else...
So............what HAPPENS to all these stray constituents?? They collect on the valves, stems, piston heads and rings. EVERY old owners manual you read SUGGESTS you take the head off EVERY FALL (or more frequently) and clean it up to remove all these deposits. I always wanted to try running my Rumelys on water and Kerosene but after thinking about the above.....NOOOOOOOOOOO.....I don't want to go there.....
Run your D on expensive gas...you'll save yourself a lot of headaches down the road....
Besides, and I've mentioned this before....if you insist on burning heavy fuels....buy a Diesel....or even a HVID.
Craig

[MoRo]

"Tractor Fuel" or Petroleum distillate was the fuel for a lot of older tractors. My dad thinks that a mix of 50/50 gasoline and #2 diesel fuel would work. The large tank was for the distillate, the smaller one for gasoline for starting and warmups. The water feed was for cooling the cylinders due to the pre-ignition problems. You could shut the D's off running on fuel with no problems, exept that the carb float bowl would be full of that instead of gasoline.
~M~

[Forrest A]

Originally Posted by Inter Bloke

The water did cool the inside of the cylinder though, stoping the detonation that was prevelent back in those days. An old feller I knew used to work a Rummley, and because they had an oil filled cooling system and very high compresion ratio, they ran very hot like 300 pluss degrees when working. He reconed if you ran out of water, you couldn't even drive it home. He said that it used 50 gallons of water a day. I wont vouch for that, but he did know a lot about them.

Water dampened the carbon deposits. The carbon deposits were from the heavier feuls and they would glow as the heat in the cylinder went up similar to how a glow plug works in a model airplane engine. As for the 300 plus temp in you OilPull I think the running temps are around 160-180 deg. F. 300 deg F is approaching the melting point of most babbit bearing materials which those tractors used.

The only thing I recomend using in D is pump gas with lead additive. Another tip: Do not use Champion spark plugs! Use AC or Autolite. I have a set of AC spark plugs that have been in a D for almost 10 years and last fall the D still put out (it's rated) 42 HP on the pulley.

[Inter Bloke]

212 F is water boiling point, and most tractors of the day with un pressurised cooling systems would reach that at some time. (steam and water escaping from the radiator). If you presurise the cooling system you lift the boiling point 4 degrees F per PSI. My old Rummley driving friend reconed that the oil in the cooling system let them run a LOT hotter, because the oil in the cooling system didn't boil at such a low temperature even when unpressurised.

I have no idea what the melting temperature of the average babbit would be, but I bet it is more like 300 - 400 celsius.

[Craig A]

Originally Posted by Monte R.

"Tractor Fuel" or Petroleum distillate was the fuel for a lot of older tractors. My dad thinks that a mix of 50/50 gasoline and #2 diesel fuel would work.
~M~

A 50/50 mix MIGHT work but starting directly on that mix would be difficult.
I use a 60gas/40diesel mix in my Rumely and find that to work very well BUT when first starting I have to open the fuel needle valve FOUR FULL TURNS to keep it running at first so it's sucking fuel like pig! After is has warmed up a bit I can turn it down to about one turn. I haven't noticed any crankcase oil dilution either so it IS burning it.
I DO know of a couple guys with 30-60 Rumely S's who run on straight gas and even PLOW with them with no apparent problems.
I tried my 30-50 Rumely on straight gas on a sawmill but the exhaust note was a CRACK rather the the characteristic THUMP. That's when I experimented with the gas/diesel mix.
Because of the positive crankcase ventilation feature on the Super Powered Rumelys (a pipe coming from the crankcase to the carb air inlet) I know of one 30-50 that blew the crankcase to pieces from running on straight gas..
ANYONE with a SUPER POWERED Rumely should disable this feature--put an internal plug in that pipe to prevent unspent gas vapors from getting to the carb. ONE backfire COULD be your LAST.....