Advice needed (New Sattley)

[Rex Dart]

A quick story and then some questions.

This past weekend was my Grandfather-in-law's 92nd birthday. The family gathered in the central valley to party, and to start cleaning out the barn. The latest thing I could put a date to in there was back during the Carter administraton. Most, if not all of it is trash, however there are a few meaty chunks of goodness in there. You can guess what one of those chunks is...

I ended up stubbing my toe on a one-lunger. Asked Grampa about it, and he said it was the well motor from the old homestead. He didn't remember anything else about it, nor could he remember when it last saw the light of day. I asked my mother-in-law, and she said that move was in the mid-fifties, so ~50 years is a good guess.

We dug it out and took a broom to the cobwebs. It's a nice uniform red oxide color, and the plate were mostly unreadable, but I was able to make out "Sattley, Montgomery Ward Co." and a serial number of 72618. The only other marking I could make out in that light was "2NF 10-3" cast on the biggest piece.

Luckly, that's more then enough info to find something on the mass-mind that is the internet. That's how I ended up here. Please remember that this was the first time I've seen an engine up close, in the dark, 2 days and 300 miles from my internet connection, so hopefully the description won't be too bad.

I now know that what is in the barn is a Nelson Bro./New Sattley, most likely a 1.5 HP, and it should be green instead of rust color. It looks complete (but I have no idea what should be there). The crankshaft is stuck, but doesn't look too rusty. The oil cup is intact, but the spark plug is bent, and the wire is off. The EK looks inact, but I don't know to open it to check the parts. The only things loose on it were the rocker arm, the crank on the flywheel, and something behind the flywheel that I guess is part of the governer.

Maybe it can run again. I just need to convince my Grandfather that I can do this. Before that I have to convince the wife, and before that I need to convince myself... I build computers, and the only power tool I own is a hand drill. I also rent month to month, and while I have a garage now, that's not a sure thing. Now for the questions...

1) Can it be done? More importantly, can I, with a fairly limited skill set do it?

2) How do I tell the wife that this is A Good Idea?

3) Are there any traps? Is there anything that might be fragile or irreplaceable? I'd like to have it breathing again, not ending up as a rusty paperweight.

4) Are there any diagrams or rebuilds posted on-line? I have a manual/partlist on order, but I'd like something along the lines of "Engines for People Who Have Never Seen One, And Have No Idea What They Are Doing." Luckly, these look like they are fairly bulletproof.

5) What might I be getting myself into?

Many thanks in advance. Maybe I can give this thing a second go-round.

[Chris Kirk]

Rex -

Hope this helps.

1) Can it be done? More importantly, can I, with a fairly limited skill set do it?

Anything can be fixed, and it sounds as if this engine is a good candidate for restoration in that it sounds complete. As far as your skill set goes, READ, especially this site and Harry's (the webmaster) original site http://www.old-engine.com/ and read all that there is on hit/miss governing, mags, etc. Work SLOWLY, and have patience. Don't force anything, because you don't want to break it. Be careful and gentle with old cast iron - it WILL break if you beat on it. Don't be afraid to ask questions, someone here will answer them. Search the archives for "stuck piston" or some variation thereof, and you will find a wealth of knowledge on how to free up the engine. Also, it's a good idea to take off the exhaust valve rocker arm. If the exhaust valve is seized, and it probably is, and you turn the engine over, you will break the rocker arm.

2) How do I tell the wife that this is A Good Idea?

Once you get the thing in the garage and start working on it, she'll always know where you are. You're also working to restore an antique, and you'll acquire a LOT of very handy, practical skills as you learn more. Never will you be daunted by a stuck bolt or a broken piece of metal.

3) Are there any traps? Is there anything that might be fragile or irreplaceable? I'd like to have it breathing again, not ending up as a rusty paperweight.

See my comments about the exhaust rocker arm. Fragile and irreplacable? Most of the engine, relatively speaking. Also, NEVER beat on the crown (top center) of the piston with a hammer or any other hard object. You will punch a hole in the top of the piston. Get a piece of pipe that's slightly smaller than the piston and use that, or a piece of wood with the center relieved, or dished out so that there is no pressure on the center of the piston.

4) Are there any diagrams or rebuilds posted on-line? I have a manual/partlist on order, but I'd like something along the lines of "Engines for People Who Have Never Seen One, And Have No Idea What They Are Doing." Luckly, these look like they are fairly bulletproof.

I'm not aware of any step-by-step guide, but do a google search on "hit miss engine" and I'm sure you'll find something.


5) What might I be getting myself into?

BEWARE - this hobby is VERY addicting - you'll catch "rustitis". Old engines will start to follow you home left and right, but you'll meet some really great people. And besides, what other hobby is there where you can actually own/fix/run/restore something that would usually be found in a museum. Lastly, if you stay with the hobby, don't try to explain it to someone who doesn't understand...you just can't.

Good luck....

Chris

[Mac Leod]

Also, When it comes to the EK Mag, DO NOT REMOVE THE MAGNETS!!!, infact it is best not to open it up untill you read all you can about EK mags...One of the engineads sponsers "Hit n miss enterprise" can supply you with a great deal of info on most any thing engine related and parts also. Good luck, old iron is great and the people here make it even better! Also look up the "EDGE&TA" (Early days gas engine and tractor assocation) Branch 3 is the san jose branch, your in santa cruz?

Mac Leod

[Frank Y]

Like the other guys said....read, read, read, and when you think you know where to start, read some more. Because theres always something that gets overlooked. Look for a tag on the engine with the data on it and get a owners manual before you start. Hit and Miss Enterprises has a bunch of manuals for a bunch of different engines. When you take that engine apart make sure you have some old clothes on or youll be in the wash machine WITH your clothes! Prob the best thing to do when you get the engine is to take penetrating oil to all of the pivot points and moving parts. Kroil, PB Blaster, or WorthlessD40 come to mind. GO SLOWLY and soak it down. When you get those small parts loose, try to get them off the engine. Again, GO SLOWLY in doing this, they didnt get stuck in a day, and it might not come loose in a day. Taking the small parts off not only keeps them from breaking, it gets them out of your way to get at the other parts. Get yourself some soup cans or coffee cans and keep those parts that you took off, safe. But most of all, have fun in doing it. Try to think about your grandfather or greatgrandfather oiling these parts before he started the engine up for pumping the water! And if your confused about something while your doing anyof the work, post a message, ask what you may think is stupid question, its been done many a time, and nobody will criticize you for asking......at least not on this board. We're all just a bunch of friends with "RUSTITIS"!

Take care and have fun!!
Frank Y

[BobRR]

Frank covered it pretty good. Get it home and pull the spark plug and fill the cylinder with penitrating oil. then spray all other moving parts.Dont be in a big hurry and let things soak remove the rocker arm and see if the valves will move. If not soak and tap gently.Intake doesnt have a strong spring so when working properly will move with your finger.Remove the mag and set aside till you get closer to needing it. With the rocker arm off see if push rod ,cam and governer will move if so try rocking the flywheels the piston is most likley stuck?.Soak some more! While everything is soaking you can figure out what to tell the wife(fixing a piece of family history?) and with Xmas coming you can make a tool list! Good luck and just take your time if its been inside all this time hopefully it isnt stuck to bad. But it is very do able project. Where are you located? And you can always ask here on the stack or one of the site sponsers. BobRR

[RHudson]

i have one i saved from a junk dealer. still looking for governor parts or even a good picture of a part so that i may made one by it. the good news is that the piston, rod, valves and a few other parts are actually ford model T parts and readly available. i have heard that they are sweet running engines.

[ErikG]

Hey Rex, Great find! I have a Montgomary Ward/Sattley 1 3/4hp throttling govenor engine with I think the original manual. The copyright date on the manual is 1927 and covers several engines. Let me know if you need any pics or manual info.
Some questions for the Stakers: What is the difference between Sattley's and New Sattley's? Date of manufacture?? Were they both made by Nelson Bros.? I have only seen throttle governed Sattley's, did they also make hit-n-miss engines?


Erik Grund

[Len Koehler]

In addition to what Frank said, get out your digital camera and take a zillion pictures before and while you dismantle parts from the engine. Use 'baggies' to keep small associated parts together and slip in a 2x3 note pad page identifying the parts and any critical measurements from the assemblies. Good luck on your restoration and have fun.

[smtwins]

Be carefull the first engine is easy to convince the wife but when the engine bug bites it's the next engine you buy that makes it a challange to convince her. Welcome to the engine wourld. Good luck!

[Chris Kirk]

One thing I forgot to mention on my earlier post - search the archives for electrolysis. It's a really neat process that for removing rust and freeing stuck parts that will prove invaluable. Also, check out these links for more information.

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/Electrolysis.htm

http://www.owwm.com/FAQ/electrolysis.asp

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/ru..._derusting.htm

[Bill Decker]

Sattley Gov System

Originally Posted by Len Koehler

In addition to what Frank said, get out your digital camera and take a zillion pictures before and while you dismantle parts from the engine. Use 'baggies' to keep small associated parts together and slip in a 2x3 note pad page identifying the parts and any critical measurements from the assemblies. Good luck on your restoration and have fun.

I made the mistake of not doing this when I restored my John Deere LA tractor. What a mess, not to mention the time it took to look for some parts. Still looking for some

Parts shouldn't be too hard to find. I lucked out on my Sattely I purchased at auction. All it needed was the head reaplaced.

[Ralph Leonard]

Bill, do you have a patent on that cart?

Ralph in NC

[Bill Decker]

Originally Posted by Ralph Leonard

Bill, do you have a patent on that cart?

Ralph in NC

No, no patent on the cart That's the way I bought it at the auction. Now, had it been my idea... there just may have been one

[Rex Dart]

I'd like to thank everyone that threw in advice. Right now it looks like a 75% chance that I can try to pull this off. My grandfather in law is behind it. My wife is reluctently behind it (and that cost me an ipod). I bought both the engine and EK manuals and make copies so I could mark them up. The only thing that looks like it's missing is the crankguard, and I can buy that online.

The thing in the way right now is workspace. My wife and I can get a $500k loan, and in scruz that can get us either the condo were renting now, or an 80 year old shack that was a combo chicken coop and termite buffet.

I'll be back over there over the holidays, and I hope to give it it's first squirt of oil in a few years, and take some photos. Although it looks like the one that was posted upthread (w/o the cart). I just have to keep reminding the wife that she should be glad I saw this first and not the AC tractor in the garage...

[Rex Dart]

On the road for seven days over the holidays, including 3 in Fresno. After a long stop at Nina's Armenian Deli (mmmm, kuftas...), my wife and I headed out to her Grandfather's. I was able to get another quick look at the engine, and was also able to fire off a couple of quick photos. Not the best shots, it was too dark to see what I was aiming at. and then the camera battery crapped out. Hopefully I can get them posted.

After spending time pouring over the manuals, and all the well spent time researching here, it was more "ah!" as I looked at it instead of "huh?" I was also able to hit it with a can of Blaster oil while I was there. Let the healing begin.

Edited to add, for some reason, I couldn't get the photo of he crank end small enough to post. At least I was able to get the side view up.

[Brian Henderson]

I've got one of these out in my storage container. Still has some (not much) original pinstripping, and the original decal is still visible.
Which brings up the point of "to paint or not to paint". There is a growing trend to just clean up these old engines and to maybe coat them with linseed oil or whatever your favorite preservative concoction is. Lots of info on this treatment here on Harrys. This is contrary to the natural inclination a lot of us have which is to wire brush, sandblast or whatever, and then paint the old girl. Just be aware that many collectors value an "original" engine more than a nicely painted one. It's a tough call, especially if there is still some original paint or detailing left.

[Bill Decker]

Hi Rex,
A crankguard can be purchased from Hit Miss Enterprises. That's where I got mine.

[Kevin O. Pulver]

Rex, from your original post describing the governor and other parts, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. You sound fairly mechanical to me. These engines are very simple.
There are no multitude of high dollar computerized sensors to wonder about and check. It won't take you long to understand all the functions of the thing perfectly.

I don't believe your engine is particularly rare, but the family history and your living Gramp-in-law to see it run again is without price!
Also, none of them are exactly common or easy to find anymore, but it should be relatively easy to find any needed parts.

PB Blaster is excellent to loosen things up. It doesn't seem to stay on very long, so you need to reapply it often it seems.
For long term rust protection I like WD40 or CRC5-56. (personally, I think the latter has a more manly scent. LOL)

It feels REAL BAD to break a piece of old cast iron. I started when I was little and learned the hard way. I've broken pieces more recently than I'd like to admit through getting in a hurry. Generally speaking though, you can tap things with a tiny ball pein hammer or I also like to use just the handle end of the hammer. The wood is much more genter than the hammer head is. If you can get something to move a tiny bit, stop and move it the other way, and use lots of penetrating oil. If it moves at all, you've won the battle, just go back and forth a lot. I would start by removing the cam gear, crank and flywheel assembly, head, and then you can put a carved down 4X4 or even 2X4 if it isn't too bad, and gently tap on it to see if it moves after soaking. You should make note of the timing marks, but there's no guarantee that they're correct now either. Someone could have "worked on it" years ago, though I doubt it.
From the looks of it, I doubt it is stuck very badly. You might even find that the external parts are causing most of the friction and when you remove them the piston will easily move. Get it running good, and you can always paint it later. It's no fun having to rework something and scuff up the paint. Get with it! I've read stories about people waiting years to finish, and then wishing they'd done it when Gramps could have watched. Have fun. Kevin

[Rex Dart]

Just got the photo of the crank end small enough to post. Hopefully there's still enough detail to look at. It's sad, but these two photos are the best look I've gotten of the engine. It's DARK in the barn.

Giving it a closer look, it looks like there's little rust. The engine has been indoors for decades. I need an expert's call on this, but it looks more like the grime of ages on it. Frankly, I'm itching to find a place to live where I could start working on this. Again, I'd like to thank everybody that has given advice and encuragement. I'm sure I'll need more of both in the future.

[David Greenwalt]

Rex, in my opinion the best thing to do with your wife is to get her involved. Tell her you need her help. There is nothing more enjoyable to me than working side by side with my missus and going to shows together. You might be surprised how willing the other half can be if they are involved instead of sitting on the sidelines. Just my opinion, others may look at it differently. We've done everything together for the last 26 years and it has worked for us. David.