Copper water-jacket cosmetics

[KidDynamo]

This cylinder is from a marine engine now 'known' to be a Thrall, circa 1909. Its condition poses some interesting questions!

1. How were these copper water-jackets constructed and attached to the cylinder?

2. Can these jackets be removed and then replaced successfully?

3. Are the "plumbing" fittings in the top (sparkplug hole and primer cup hole) removeable/replaceable ?

4. How can the dents in the jacket be repaired without removing the jacket?

5. Can excess solder be removed without abrasive methods?

This cylinder appears to be in fine condition except for the solder and dents. I would appreciate any ideas for refurbishing the copperwork and hope it is of interest to others! Thanks, again....!!

[PistonRing]

Hi Kid-
I have removed these before on Dis-Pro / Arrow engines and thet were held on with a steel or iron ring over the big skirt end that looks like a piston ring but is not split. I drove the ring up with a chisel. It was on a tapered outside section of the lower cylinder. You could anneal the copper and pound it back into shape from the inside. If yout pounding skills are limited you may want to enlist the help of a blacksmith that specializes in copper pots and pans. I guess this is a coppersmith? There are special procedures for annealing copper like quenching it in water. I suppose it would shrink and stretch like car fenders too. You may want to talk to an auto body man too. The copper tops are slick looking when all done up.
Thank you,
Dave Reed
Otto Gas Engine Works
2167 Blue Ball Road
Elkton MD 21921-3330
phone 410-398-7340 http://www.pistonrings.net
http://www.pistonring.net

[Robt.]

If the ring won't come with heat and hitting you could split it with a small cut-off wheel on a die-grinder or a Dremel Tool then weld it back together. As for getting the dents out, get the jacket as hot as you dare, then drop it in cold water to soften the brass/copper. Then get your neighborhood wood-turner (lots of hyphens tonight) to turn up a block from the hardest wood you can get as close to the original inside dimensions as possible. Insert block into jacket and tap gently where necessary. Or take the annealed jacket to your local silversmith and get him to hammer out the dents. (Photo Credit: Ernie D.)

[KidDynamo]

Thanks for the good info, everybody. This cylinder appears to have a different system of fastening, as I presently see it. I am familiar with the shrink fit steel retaining rings that you refer to but don't see that here. I'm still not sure what I'm seeing.

There appears to be a copper ring, of sorts, but it is very hard to decipher. This cylinder jacket enlarges so much that a shrink fit ring wouldn't expand nearly enough to clear.

Following ideas in a marine coppersmithing tome, I have successfully removed the largest dents. To summarize, I applied regulated air pressure, starting at 25 psi, to the jacket and used a small oxy-acetylene torch to soften the copper. Gradually, by moving the heat selectively, the dent eventually worked its way out until it is essentially gone, though the pressure was increased to about 50psi.

The plan is to continue this process for a while longer and get the worst of the dents out and stop. Already, it looks a lot better.

I guess these copper-jackets are used on more than just marine engines. Arrow, Waterman, Wajax (?), to name a few. Quite a few old firepumps had copper jackets.

This work has a ways to go. It looks like I need to find a primer cup with a 7/16NC thread. Never new there was such a thing but it, and the sparkplug, seem to be integral to the jacket system. Thanks, again !!

[John Davidson]

All Cadillac automobile engines from the single cylinder of 1903 to the 4 cylinder by 1914 had individual cast cylinders with copper water jackets.

[Andrew Mackey]

I have an Arrow engine that is mounted on a fire pump. Built circa 1917, it served the town of Hainesville NJ for over 30 years. It is a 5 HP twin, with copper jackets.
Andrew

[John Drabik]

I just acquired an Arrow copper top. I just saw your post and was wondering how you made out removing the copper dome on your engine.
Mine is still stuck but I want to try to remove the dome to make it easier to adress the stuck issue. Hope fully it wont be just a parts engine when I`m done.
Thankyou, John

[Andrew Mackey]

Thankfully, I did not have to remove the jackets, on my Arrow Fire Pump. How ever, to remove them, you must remove the brass spark plug mount at the top of the cylender, and then remove the steel retainer at the bottom. then very carefully rock GENTLY with a rubber mallet, at the top edge, where the copper has the most strength. You may have to heat the bottom of the copper jacket, in order to expand it a little, but do not dis-color the copper (too hot) or it will stretch. This engine, by the way, is the same as the Waterman K-2 (Arrow bought out Waterman). The Dis-Pro is also the same engine.
Kid, you too will have to remove the brass plug mount, the fit at the bottom of your cylender is a press fit, and the plug mount maintains pressure on the jacket to base connection, to get the seal. You have to be very careful on not over heating the base, as if it stretches, you will not be able to get a good seal. If the dents are small, I would not worry too much about them, If the dents have creases, you may not be able to reduce without removing the cylender jacket. Is the excess solder hiding a split, or fatigue crack? Copper will develope fatigue cracks over time, if not stress relieved (annealed).
Andrew

[KidDynamo]

This project has been on hold for a while, just waiting for a few gaskets. I don't know what the solder is doing exactly. The priming cup fitting is an odd thread for that service: 7/16 NC and probably had a small flange and a gasket to seal it. For sure, no standard pipe thread will work. I used a bolt to seal it up to hold some air pressure when I coaxed a few of the dents.

You may be on to something with your ideas regarding the spark plug mount needing to be removed for jacket removal. I wonder if the primer cup requires similar treatment? I 'spose so.

I don't holdout a lot of hope for finding an original waterpump for this Thrall, but one never knows. Ditto for an original carb. This came with part of a little Schebler and I have since obtained the missing Schebler parts and this should suffice in lieu of original, for now. Finding a primer cupp would be nice. Heck I'd just like to know if anyone else has run across this type of thread on a primer.

I may just leave the dents alone for the time being. I can still assemble and run the engine and keep reading and learning. Any ideas on how to remove that sparkplug fitting (and the primer) ?

I like the Arrow fire pumps a lot. Seen only pictures. Quite a unit !!

Thanks...Still tuned in in Seattle......John