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What to do about blowby?


ok, on my Jaeger the cylinder was honed and the piston was put back in with the old rings (6 0f...

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  #1  
Old 12-22-2004, 03:35 PM
Mac Leod Mac Leod is offline
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Default What to do about blowby?

ok, on my Jaeger the cylinder was honed and the piston was put back in with the old rings (6 0f them) the engine ran well after the rings took a seat. after a few months running occasionaly there is a noticable amount of blow by. I see no reason for this to start now, any ideas why...what can I do?

thanks

Mac Leod
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2004, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby

I have never had any luck reusing old piston rings. I know a lot of people that do it, though. If I don't have to pull the piston out of an engine, I don't. If I have to, I replace the rings. The rings are probably one of the cheapest parts you can get for an engine. Unless, of course, you're working on something with a huge bore. If I were you, I would get a new set of rings and lightly hone the cylinder to break the glaze, if there is any, since you said you honed it not long ago. You should also check the side clearance of the rings in the grooves. If that is excessive, compression can leak around the back side of the rings.

Some engines are funny when it comes to blowby. I have a Fairbanks headless "Z" that has no blowby sometimes and other times you'd wonder if it had rings in it at all! I think there is a multitude of things going on in my engine, such as, worn piston, worn ring grooves, the cylinder probably has taper and is out of round. I did just recently renew the wrist pin, and it seems to have helped it a lot by possibly keeping the piston a little more true in the cylinder instead of letting do it's own thing due to the sloppy wrist pin and bushing. These are my experiences, take them for what they're worth.

Happy holidays!

Mike
  #3  
Old 12-22-2004, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby

there might be a lot of end gap on the rings and once and a while the end gap on all the rings get lined up with one another and the compression just blows right through the end gap.

just a thought

chuck
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:01 AM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Hi Mac,
Above post is probably spot on, worn rings in a honed cylender wear even more and faster! The end gaps are probably aligning now and then. Is oil or air blowing back in to the oiler? Is oil getting to the piston - 5 to 6 drops a minute? Is the piston wet with oil when the engine is running, or does it appear to be dry? Is oil being blown off the rear of the piston? If you pull the engine over smartly, does it blow by? Or does it only blow by at slow speed? So many questions! If the piston is wet, and the blow by is not noticeable at running speeds, don't worry about it. If it is noticeable at running speed, and or if the piston is running dry, you will have to remedy, and soon, if you want to save the piston and bore. Running dry, and hot leads to extreme wear and fast! Check your piston to cylender clearances - if the piston is too sloppy in the bore, the rings will not be able to seal correctly.
Andrew
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:33 AM
Mac Leod Mac Leod is offline
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

with six rings the gaps lineing seems a bit unlikely to me (my opinion not worth much, only had a H&M for a year now). every now and then the oiler wil have air blow back. the piston is geting about 15 drops per minute...at 10 or so the bottom of the cilinder had no oil. is too much oil possible, gummed up the rings? never does any work, have nothing for it to run. oil is not blown off the rear of the piston in any great quantity, just a puff of exhaust from the top of the cylinder/piston when it fires.

any more info needed to evaluate the situation?

Mac Leod
  #6  
Old 12-28-2004, 12:14 PM
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Exclamation Re: What to do about blowby?

Hi Mac-
When you honed the cylinder you forced the old rings to get about 20 years of accelerated wear in a days time. By introdicing this much wear you most likely wore the rings much past the point of working "acceptably". Had you not honed you could have probably gotten away with it. In any case there has been a past compression problem with your engine. Having 6 rings in it tells me that some past owner was trying to get better compression than he had by doubling up. Usually doubling up doesn't work any better or worse than single rings and is only a desirable solution where the proper width single ring is not readily available. Check your ring side clearances. This is likely your problem area. Expect to see an extra 1.5 thou of clearance due to using the doubled rings. With 2 per groove you should have 3 thou when new, and 6.5 thou is the max. Seven or more and you need machine work. The top groove always wears the most. You need a set of three rings 3 1/4" x 1/4". And probably three .030" spacers to go on the top side of the rings. Measuring with feeler gauges will tell the story. When the rings are not held tightly enough in the ring grooves due to wear the rings can turn in the grooves. The force gravity makes the gaps all line up at the top in a horizontal engine much like a marble finding the bottom of a punch bowl when released. Maybe not quite this fast but faster than you might imagine. In any case the compression doesn't escape past the lined up gaps. 95% of the leakage is by the sides of the rings where they don't lay flat against the ring land. End gap means very little in the business of sealing compression. It can however indicate a ring that is not the proper size for the cylinder and tip you off that the ring may not be round for the desired cylinder diameter.
The two big problem areas today are:
#1. The thing that is way overdone to engines is honing. If you want to save yourself a lot of headaches skip this step. If the cylinder is not rusty or is not a newly bored cylinder you are better off not to hone.
#2. NOT checking the side clearance in the ring grooves. 5 thou is the max acceptable. Any more and compression problems are coming to your neighborhood shortly.
Recommended reading: http://www.dol.net/~dave.reed/tips.htm
Good luck in your quest for compression. Give me a call or email and I will be glad to help.
Thank you,
Dave Reed
Otto Gas Engine Works
2167 Blue Ball Road
Elkton MD 21921-3330
phone 410-398-7340 http://www.pistonrings.net
http://www.pistonring.net
  #7  
Old 12-28-2004, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Well..... If the cylinder/rings/piston is worn at all it will depend on oil to help Seal the rings. AND if you flood the engine when starting it once oil will be washed off and once it starts to blow by it will keep the oil from getting to the proper place. Sort of a No Win situation. Does the oiler have a Check Ball in it.???? Sometimes blowby will keep the oil from going down the pipe to where it is supposed to be.

If the piston is worn too much or the cylinder is tapered the piston will Cock in the bore and the rings will not seat. If you have good compression when turning it one way and much less when turning it the other way I would expect to find excessive wear.
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Old 12-28-2004, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

My FMZ Has a massive amount of compression, but at tdc it has a bit of blowby. My Novo is the same way. Granted, the FMZ only has about 2 hrs on it since honing... I put new rings in it, I think the rings were $5 each and the engine uses three. For the amount of trouble they can cause it is really easier to just put on a new set of rings. If you do this, then honing to break the glaze is a good idea. I run this engine with the oiler up as high as I can without smoke coming out the exhaust, not surprisingly it is just a few drops per minute over what Fairbanks recomended.

The simple serf
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Old 12-30-2004, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Hello fron Wisconsin!!!
All replays are excellant, The only thing that I would use instesd of a hone is a bottle brush type hone, you know the one with the little balls. They break the glaze but do not change the size and never chatter. Also will follow the taper or out of roundness of the cylinder. I like using them!!!!
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Old 12-30-2004, 05:40 PM
Mac Leod Mac Leod is offline
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

I still see no reason for the rings to seat so well and then have blowby a short while later other than the ring gap lineing up...seems to have compression when I turn it over backwards, very little blowby

Mac Leod
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Old 12-30-2004, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Leod
I still see no reason for the rings to seat so well and then have blowby a short while later other than the ring gap lineing up...seems to have compression when I turn it over backwards, very little blowby

Mac Leod
Well.... I can't see the rings traveling that much that fast. Also if the rings aren't pinned and you reused them you are fighting an uphill battle as they were worn to the cylinder and now they are probably in a different place. I would suspect you are washing the oil off the piston/rings either when starting or by feeding too much fuel. Try feeding more oil and see if that helps. The engine on my saw rig will lose compression ( Has lots Miles on it) if I don't feed enough oil but with enough oil feed it runs Just Fine.... This engine don't just sit there and Put.... It gets worked Hard about 20 to 30 hrs a year.. Yup, one of these days I will have to clean up the ring grooves and get some new rings...
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Last edited by Ken Majeski; 12-31-2004 at 11:58 AM. Reason: typo
  #12  
Old 12-30-2004, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Running at idle or very low RPM ?? This can cause rings to unsettle. Possible carbon interfering, also.
Try running at highest speed allowed for a while. Put at least some load on, and vary it while running high RPM. After a while of that, vary speeds up and down with load. then back to highest RPM.
  #13  
Old 12-31-2004, 01:22 AM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Loose ring lands will let a rings line up the end gaps in less than a hr. of run time.I wish I could find the pict to prove it but wouldnt matter cause ya cant see the engine in that pict. BobRR
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Old 12-31-2004, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: What to do about blowby?

Well, I have never had the problem of the ring gaps lining up... I do know that the reason they pinned the early rings is because they were made much thicker on the side away from the gap and gravity would actually cause the heavy sides to end up on the bottom and cause the gaps to line up. But modern rings are no longer made that way. How many pinned rings have you ever seen in 2 cylinder John Deeres? and they were certainly successfull. I have removed lots of ring pins and have had no problems. Any compression problems I have ever had have been traceable to wear or lubrication issues.
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