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Antique Gas Engine Discussion

How to expand steel ring??


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  #1  
Old 01-24-2005, 07:32:23 PM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default How to expand steel ring??

The governor slip ring on my Associated 8 horse is stuck to the crankshaft..I can heat it, and it will expand and turn free, but as soon as it cools off, it is stuck tight again! ...Is there any way to expand the ring and make it stay??I don't think I can get the flywheel off without causing MORE problems and I can't get under the ring to get some clearance...The ring only moves about 1/4 inch when it is working properly, and is captive between the crank gear and the flywheel...Any ideas???

David M.
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Old 01-24-2005, 09:00:18 PM
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Keith Smigle Keith Smigle is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

David~

First question that comes to my mind is what is making it tight to begin with? Is it pitted badly or corroded with rust & such? Sounds like you just need to work with it and while it is hot & loose try your best to get some lube under it.

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Old 01-24-2005, 10:22:15 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is online now
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

I had the same problem with a Fairbanks T, the collar for the governor was frozen, I didn't want to remove the cam gear. When heated it would move but would stick tight as it cooled. This collar was wide and it had rusted to the shaft. I drilled a 1/16" hole through it to the shaft, took a large bit and made a countersunk pan. While it was hot I pumped grease through it with a needle tip and the rust would flow out. It ended up floating free on the shaft, I now use the pan to oil the collar.
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Old 01-25-2005, 06:13:28 AM
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

I had a stop ring for one of the forks on my Pettibone GS-30 that was rusted stuck so I soaked it with penetrating oil for a long time. As most of you know, if it's really rusted stuck, that stuff is worthless. One day when I had nothing better to do , I cleaned the rod real good down to bare metal on both sides and then the fun began . I got the torch out and heated that ring red hot and it still wouldn't move. I tried it again with the 5# hammer and it moved a bit, but kept shrinking on the shaft. Finally after about a half hour it was loose. It's now well greased like the other side . Just need to have some patience and keep working it.
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:12:41 AM
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

I have heated and worried the ring so much, I am concerned about the strength of the metal...It has so much clearence when it is warm that it will jingle on the shaft...I have spun it, tapped on it, moved it back & forth, jiggled it sideways, melted bees wax under it, tried to force some grease under it, squrited it with oil, Etc, Etc. It will move freely until it starts cooling down...Then it locks tight! Kinda like shrinking a tire on a wagon wheel, I guess...I thought maybe some of you blacksmiths had a trick I could try to expand the metal just a tad!

David M.
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:38:57 AM
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

I know a couple of tricks to shrink metak but none come to mind on how to expand it, the only thing I can think off would be to stretch it a bit. while it is hot you might be able to peen it in a couple of places this will stretch it but the stretched spot will also be slightly thinner. I do not know if I really recomend this idea just a thought. I agree with the earlier post about finding out why it is stuck it obviously was free at one time it is after all a govenor collar. if it isn't rust or grit under it perphaps it is twisted slightly and binding when it is cool. I think I would set up an indicator and check for that. In the meantime I will check with a couple blacksmith buddies of mine and see if we can come up with anything, the problem does compound itself tho since you do not want to damage the crankshaft in the process. this is a definet puzzler

Joe M.
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:04:43 AM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Worn-out, old sloppy parts are so much easier to get un-stuck. On your parts, it sounds like some kind of crud is taking up all the clearance. Getting the collar 'out-of -round' will really make it tough.

Consider using water for a lubricant and to help "float" out the crud. If you can get any movement going while "washing" things with a pin stream spray from an old 409 spray bottle (or similar), any rust or crud particles might be floated away, gradually.

So much the better, when using heat. Water flashing into steam can have a slightly errosive effect on rust, grease, and crud. Try to keep water biased toward the crankshaft and away from the collar, which is mostly improbable, but in your dreams, it works.

If you begin to see a teensy amount of rusty water, that's a good sign that minute particles are moving out from under the collar, increasing clearance, a little at a time. Repeat this many times, patiently, and maybe it will work.

Water will not leave a deposit when it evaporates so it won't exacerbate your clearance problems. Sometimes, oil will.

When finished, thoroughly dry, then oil liberally. Best of luck.....
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:11:10 PM
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Just a suggestion. If able can you quench the ring after it is hot. By that I mean flood it with cold water after you get it good and loose. I have done this at work and it did just fine. I have worked in a gear factory , in maintenance and have worked quite alot in our heat treat department. If this doesn't work let me know and I will ask one of our metallurgists if they have any ideas. Lots of luck, Fred
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:28:26 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

I have dealt with the Associated governor collars that you mention.
In my experience, the very best thing you can do is get an old vise-grip that is not real sharp so it doesn't make deep grooves in the collar. Pre-adjust the vise grips to grip tightly not not to the point it will "crush" the collar when hot. Remove vise grips and heat the collar with the torch until you can move it. Then grab the collar and rotate it rapidly back and forth as long as you can. You may not get many degrees of motion, but you don't have to. The whole thing is rotating and it IS grinding the rust out of there. It will probably take several applications of heating and turning, but finally you will get to the point where it will still turn a bit when cold. Then you can start with some good penetrant and a lot of it while you keep turning back and forth.
Relax, if you've had it moving already, it's as good as free. You just need some more of the same. Forget using punches and stuff to drive it sideways, you will only damage it. Rotation is the key. Let us know how it goes. Kevin
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Old 01-26-2005, 12:02:36 AM
Bill Miller Bill Miller is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

With the collar being tight when cold makes me think that it has somehow gotten out of round. This can be checked by measuring the diameter in different places around the collar. Bill Miller
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Old 01-26-2005, 04:51:57 AM
BWegher BWegher is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Agree with the heating with water to dissolve crud, not oil.
You are already better off than many stuck parts in that your part will move.
Make a cup of near boiling distilled water, add one drop (only one) of Dawn detergent.
Heat your part until it moves and squirt your hot water into the joint and keep working the part back and forth as it cools. Eventually the crud will dissolve. The distilled water is better than tap water. Hot water will dissolve rust. The detergent makes the water slip easier into the joints.
After the part moves easier. Use plenty of penetrating oil.
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:26:44 PM
garry brown garry brown is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Isn't there a way to make a small container around it to rig up an electrolysis tub. That's way out there but... desperate measures for knotty problems.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:11:11 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Thanks for all the tips guys, But it still won't loosen up!...I have used a whole bottle of acetylene heating this thing up...I have worried it everyway I can think of, But it refuses to gain any clearance...I guess the next logical step is to see if I can get the flywheel to move off the shaft an inch or so. Then I would have room to slide the ring over and clean out from under it...Don't think I will have to completely remove the flywheel, just move it over a tad!
I'll keep you posted.

David M.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:57:46 AM
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M. Lyon
Thanks for all the tips guys, But it still won't loosen up!...
David M.
David:

I suppose you're going to have to bite the bullet and remove the flywheel to be able to properly fix the problem.

It looks like the ring is pretty buggered-up from trying so, if it were mine, I'd pull the wheel and use a hammer and cold chisel on it until it either splits or expands enough to slip off the shaft.

I'm sure you can get either a reproduction or good used ring from one of Harry's sponsors. That'll do it right.

Good luck and take care - Elden
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:45:45 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: How to expand steel ring??

Well, I finally got it loose...Had to heat it red hot in one spot. Then took a cold chisel and popped a "V" in the ring which gave it just enough clearance to slide on the crank..Of course I had to weld the "V" back and dress the slip ring back up, but I think it will work fine now! It really had shrunk around the crank.

Thanks to all for their responses.

David M.
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