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Simple Way To Charge Magnets???


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  #1  
Old 02-18-2005, 11:03:09 PM
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Default Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

I was looking through some of my old Gas Engine Magazines today and found a small article about charging horse shoe magneto magnets. This is in the March-April 1968 issue. It says to wrap a coil of #6 or #8 insulated copper wire turns about 1/2 inch apart around the magnet and hold the ends for approximately two seconds on a good 12 or 6 volt car battery.

I can see how this would work, but how do you know if the polarity is right? Is there a way you can do this and know for sure what the polarity is going to be, or do I have to experiment with making some coils and use a compass to see what kind of polarity I end up with?

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 02-18-2005, 11:28:13 PM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Photo Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

I really don't know what the point of doing that would be. The charge would be so minamal that it wouldn't last long. To get total saturation of the magnet you need a good heavy duty 40,000 ampereturn magnet charger. Esp, with a low tension mag this very important.I used to have a small Allen charger and this winter built a heavy duty REX magnetcharger. The small Allen would make a good paperweight!
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Old 02-18-2005, 11:37:42 PM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Rudy,
You're probably right. Maybe it's one of those "too good to be true" things. You wouldn't want to get rid of your old magnet charger, would you?

Mike
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Old 02-19-2005, 01:10:46 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

I have some extreemly strong magnets out of modern computer hard drives. These magnets are impossible to pull apart with your hands without sliding them sideways untill the fields don't line up enough to hold them together when you pry them apart.

I mean to tell you they are STRONG.

I am wondering if they couldn't be placed somewhere on the existing magnets on a magnito where they would induce enough of a field to replace a weak field with a strong one thus effectivly suplimenting the existing field.

Either that or I was also wondering if they could be rubbed on weak magnets to stringthen them somewhat like I used to magnatize paperclips with a magnet.

An other possability would be to slice out a section of an existing magnet and insert one of these nagnets into the field.

These magnets are usually fairly thin 1/8th to 1/4" thick and about 1 1/2" long and somewhat cressant shapped. I wonder if they might be too powerful and overstress the insulation in the coil especially in a high tension magnito.

The picture shows 3 sets of the magnets 2 sets at the top are in the regular attraction position and the 2 magnets at the bottom of the picture are taken apart. On the 2 on the bottom you can see that they all have a non-magnetic backing plate that is larger than the actual magnetic material glued onto them.

These magnets are brittle and fairly easily broken if the are allowed to snap together to abruptly. Another interesting thing about them is that if you seperate a pair and bring them together with the metal backing material between the magnetic materials there seems to be no attraction or revulsion. The backing plates act kind of like a magnetic shields with regard to each other but don't effect their attraction to other ferrous metals.

Don't get your fingers in between them when you put them back together or you will get badly pinched fingers usually resulting in a blood blister. I've done it and know.

If anyone has any ideas how to use these interesting and very powerfull magnets please let me know.

Dick
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Old 02-19-2005, 02:10:54 AM
Rudy Rudy is offline
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

These powerful magnets are Rare Earth magnets. If you take a weak Bosch AB-33 mag for instance check the spark that it jumps and then piggyback the rare earth magnets against the mag magnets, you will see the result. the spark is intensifed. I don't think it will hurt the windings because the only thing that really causes the windings to fail is carbon core plug wire(high resistance) and snapping off the mag with out a load , for example no sparkplug.
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Old 02-19-2005, 08:35:48 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Smile Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Thanks Rudy,

I think I will try it on one of my EK mags. If anyone has access to high density hard drives gone bad they are cheap enough new that few are worth rebuilding. So they can be had for free. Usually if they have sensative data stored on them the disks should be destroyed by mutilation, bending or scratching will do it. No one is likly to dig them out of your trash anyway but it gives those who give you the drives a feeling of security if they know that you are aware of the data security issue and that you will destroy the data disks.

Believe me when I get through taking one apart they are destroyed.

If you get one to take the magnets out of it takes a good set of Electronic Star type wrench tips to remove the screws. I bought my set a Frys for about $14.00 but a good set will last forever and a cheap set about 5 minutes. The wrench set is good to have and will be necessary in the future for many things now come with these type screws and I have had $14.00 worth of fun showing sets of these magnets to others who can't believe how powerfull they are.

The magnets would also make good blind latch for a door as one could be epoxied or screwed to the frame and the other to the door. When closed it would take a good yank to pull the door open.

It's funny the things that amuse me. But I get excited when I find something unusual like these magnets.

Its good to be alive during a time when we can enjoy old and new technology side by side.

Dick
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Old 02-19-2005, 10:58:06 AM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

I did a little surfing ("rare earth magnets") and found, among others, the following page that might help you along in your search for magnets.

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=11

I've thought about rare earth magnets for magnetos for a while but, since I don't have anything that uses a magneto (besides my -yuck!- lawn mower), haven't done anything about it.

I think if I had a Wico EK, for instance, I'd remove the original magnets and replace them with some mild steel dummies, milled out to fit an appropriately sized rare earth magnet at one end. That should do the trick.

On a horse shoe magnet magneto, you could have a horse shoe bent out of steel and mill one end for the r.e. magnet.

I'd not want to destroy an otherwise good original magnet for this experiment. Also, the original magnets are usually very hard steel and you'd have to draw the temper before you could machine 'em.

One caution - especially with a high energy field do NOT flick the mag without a safety spark gap across the output. It would be easy to arc within the coil and ruin it. Also, you may need to replace the original condenser, as the higher voltage may cause a marginal one to fail.

Good luck!

Take care - Elden
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Old 02-19-2005, 12:50:40 PM
Roger Kirschenman Roger Kirschenman is offline
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Question Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

[
I can see how this would work, but how do you know if the polarity is right? Is there a way you can do this and know for sure what the polarity is going to be, or do I have to experiment with making some coils and use a compass to see what kind of polarity I end up with?

Thanks,
Mike[/QUOTE] Mike did you get a sulotion to this ????
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2005, 02:43:12 PM
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Default Re: Rare Earth Magnet

Here is a pic of one of 30 rare earth magnets that I bought on eBay for $10 + shipping. This one tiny 3/8 x 1/4 x 1/16 magnet is probably 10 times stronger than any horse shoe magnet on a low tension magneto. This tiny magnet, if it had a handle on it you could probably pick up 7 to 10 Lbs of iron with it. These tiny magnets may be just the answer to a weak magnet. It is so tiny you probably would never notice it on a magneto, especially if you painted one black. Do a search for "Neodymium N48" The N48 is the strength and these magnets are extremly strong!
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Old 02-19-2005, 02:46:06 PM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Well.... I experimented with the coil of wire Idea years ago when that article appeared in GEM. And yes there was a problem with the polarity. There is a method to determine polarity by holding the coil and which way you thumb is pointing but I can never remember it. While there isn't many turns there will be a very High current flow and you would be surprised at the amount of magnetism you can generate.

I built a Quick and Dirty charger using the field coil out of a large DC welder as I never seemed to have the time to make a decent one and it does work very well. I sawed off a piece of 2 X 6" mild steel for the core and used a couple pieces of 6" (I think) angle for the pole pieces. With 24 or 36 VDC you better keep your compass a Safe distance or you will reverse it. I had a picture of it in Puter and if I can find it I will add it.
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Old 02-19-2005, 06:49:41 PM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Could a rare earth magnet harm a magneto in any way if you stuck one on it to give it a boost? Would you be able to accidentally demagnetize the magneto magnets?

Mike
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:07:17 PM
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Smile Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Mike:: If you ever had any Rare Earth Magnets.. They will Mash your fingers..The ones I have are about 3/4" round by 1/8th thick .. I don't think you have a choice on polarity.. They will flip and seek there own N~Sth.. Don't think they would ever falloff.. A Buddy put some on his Bosch that was weak.. It runs all weekend now..Cheap Fix...Byron
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Old 02-19-2005, 08:45:17 PM
Rick I Rick I is offline
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Welty
I think I will try it on one of my EK mags. ...
Dick
Please let us know how this actually works out! I had a dead EK a while ago, and was considering this (using supermagnets) as I didn't know anyone that had a magnet recharger. I eventually figured out that my problem wasn't the magnets, and fixed the mag before I got to try them.

I have bought some of these magnets in the past from
http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/, and the magnets are
indeed incredibly powerful.

-Rick
my Taylor: http://www.oldengine.org/members/inzero/
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Old 02-19-2005, 09:40:35 PM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron Roberts
.. I don't think you have a choice on polarity.. They will flip and seek there own N~Sth..
I don't know what to make of this exactly. Remember that when assembling a magneto that has nested magnets, like Webster K & L models, the magnets nest with like polarities together, that is, all Souths with each other and all Norths together.

As I recall, the magnets don't really want to set themselves up in that manner but need a little coersion. I don't know how a rare earth magnet would be properly "fitted" on the magnet.

Perhaps they are powerful enough to overwhelm the original charge on the magnet so that even if they "self-orient", which will only be South to North, it still works. I can't intuitively tell what is going to happen. I can say that original magneto magnets that have their fields reversed can be troublesome. They may not hold a charge very long when in service and this can be a little hard to diagnose because you're taught not to reverse the field but in this case, that is the cure.
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Old 02-19-2005, 10:46:06 PM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

KidDynamo,

After going to the magnet web site listed earlier in this thread I saw enough sizes and shapes that I thought I might try to remove the magnets from an EK and cut some steel stock that has a similar cross section to a length just the less the thickness of 1 of the rare earth magnets. Then I will epoxie the magnet on one or the other end of this steel bar and reinstall it in place of the original magnet. That way I won't destroy the original other than loosing its' magnetic charge. The worst thing that can happen is that I will have to have it recharged.

These rare earth magnets aren't going to loose their charge unless they are heated to a tempreture that would destroy the magneto anyway.

If this method works I don't think I am such a purest that I would not do the same to other magnitos, even to the extent that I might just grind down the original magnet on the end and epoxie on one of the rare earth magnets and be done with it. I'll also probably also install a new milar film capacitor. I'll put black friction tape over the capacitor to cover the bright blue plastic in case some one takes the cover off the mag. What am I talking about no one is going to be in there except me anyhow.

Some of the purest don't want any new technology on any of their engines and thats fine with me thats why we all have our own engines.

The farmers that originally owned most of these engines used what ever worked to keep them working. I have had to reconvert some back to igniter and clean up some of their repairs but I don't mind because they needed to get those engines to run with what they had.

I don't think someone in 80 or 90 more years is going to be mad if they remove a mag cover and see that I inserted a more modern magnet in the mag. The original electromagnetic principals will still be in effect, the outward appearance will be the same the mag won't have had to be recharged several times. I will have gotten a better spark.

If they do have a problem with it they can take it up with me then. Doubtfull I'll be around then at 120 or 130 years of age. But if I am I'll have probably fogotten all about it anyway. I'll probably just say "What is a gas engine?".

Dick
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Old 02-19-2005, 11:26:36 PM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Well.... I have seen some Electrical Wizards stick magnets all over magnetos... Which really doesn't do any good unless you have a return path for the magnetic flux as Eldon has suggested. No reason it shouldn't work if you replace the magnet with mild steel to maintain the magnetic path to the other pole piece. Or you could even put one on each side with the correct polarity of course. If anybody trys this keep us posted...
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Old 02-20-2005, 01:54:25 AM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

I saw an article in Strictly IC mag, where someone used Neodymium magnets in a miniature magneto. the thing was about 1-1/2" high, for a mini aircraft engine of some kind... All you guys messing around w/powerful magnets, be sure not to let them get in close proximity to your wallet, or wherever you keep your credit cards. I was in a machine shop once, the owner was demagnetizing a crankshaft after Magnafluxing it, & he took his wallet out & put it in his toolbox. Somebody asked him wat he was doing, & he said the machine will wipe out your cards...I suspect one of those powerful little guys would too, if you stuck it in your back pocket.
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Old 02-20-2005, 03:47:35 PM
Al Steppich Al Steppich is offline
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Does anybody know how magnets were originally made? Can you bend or cast a piece of iron into a horseshoe shape and then charge it? Sounds like we have to reinvent 100 year old technology here.
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:39:32 AM
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Default Re: Simple Way To Charge Magnets???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Steppich
Does anybody know how magnets were originally made? Can you bend or cast a piece of iron into a horseshoe shape and then charge it? Sounds like we have to reinvent 100 year old technology here.
Al:

Mild (soft) steel doesn't hold magnetism very well and will only make a weak magnet. However, it is a good conductor of magnetism.

I believe in the old days, magnets were bent/machined into shape, heat treated to harden them then ground to a final finish.

If you get rare earth magnets, make sure they are magnetized through the plane you intend to use, usually through the thickness.

If you make your own dummy magnets out of mild steel, you don't have to worry about getting polarity correct. The magnets will do that job for you. Just stick a magnet on the dummy and line it up mechanically as you want it to be. If you use a second magnet on the other end of the dummy, it will let you know when it's happy. Try to make it go the other way and it will fight you tooth and nail to go back.

When you mount the whole works on the magneto, don't worry about polarity. The magneto doesn't really care as long as there's a south pole on one side and a north pole on the other.

If you don't care how the magneto looks, you can probably leave off the dummy magnet altogether. Use two of the rare earth magnets - one on each face where the original magnet contacted the pole pieces. Of course, it will work better if there's a conductor for the magnetism between the sides of the magneto but the rare earth magnets are so strong, you'll probably get a very good spark without it.

The only danger using rare earth magnets is that, if you trip the mag with the plug wire disconnected, you may ruin the coil. This can happen with the original magnets, too.

Let us know how this comes out.

Take care - Elden
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