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Antique Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Antique Gas Engine Discussion

playing with fuel


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  #1  
Old 03-11-2005, 10:45:54 PM
Mac Leod Mac Leod is offline
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Default playing with fuel

well, I have been wondering what the inside of my jaeger would look like after al the time I have had it running, so I pulled the cylinder head. WOW! about an 1/8 of an inch of greasy sooty junk coated the piston top, cylinder head and cylinder wall. well That was yesterday. I put the cylinder head on and put it away. Today I decided to mess around with fuel as I sometimes do to see about making cheap but acceptable. Todays mystery mix was 50/50 gas and diesel. I started it on straight gas and once warm made the jump to 50/50...and with a bit of adjusting on the mixer it ran well (smokey but well...and oily) Then I went to straight diesel...4:1 compression and no load, it was not hot enough to run well, but it did run! then back to 50/50, all of 2 ounces used. once the engine cooled down I drained the water and pulled the cylinder head... CLEAN...bit of ludge still but over all CLEAN... Any one else mess around with mystery mix fuels? (if it will ignite, try running it?)

Mac Leod
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  #2  
Old 03-11-2005, 11:32:57 PM
Sky
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Default Re: playing with fuel

i never tryed it myself but did anyone ever try and run that stuff they call or use to call white gas?.......it's the stuff they ran in model airplanes, what about high octain racing fuel?..i imagine it would run hot but clean maybee?...never tryed deisle.......think i'll just stick to kerosene and leaded gas fer these old ones,...i mean...after all,....they were desighned to run like this and depended on lead for some cushioning.


just a though
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  #3  
Old 03-12-2005, 12:03:16 AM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Skylar Wrong These engines were designed to run on white gas (coleman fuel) or unleaded.Unless you have T/G engine then you could run kerosene once warmed up.They will run on just about anything but unleaded white gas is what the hit&miss were made to run on. They didnt have leaded when these engines were built. Check the archives there has been several discussions on fuel.BobRR
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:07:35 AM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Smile Re: playing with fuel

If you decide to try mixed fuels again, use kerosesn at 50 -50. The engine will burn off most of the coke deposits if you run it loaded for a whils. Diesel and Kero burn at muce higher temps than gas, but under a severe load will knock and cause damage to the wrist pin and big end bearings. Diesel will knock because it is an uncontrolled ignition. In a Diesel engine, the fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber where it ignites and burns, the amount of fuel and power is determined by the duration of fuel injection. When you use diesel in a gas engine, all the fuel 'inhaled' on the intake stroke is ignited at once, at a temperature much higher than the temperature than gas. You end up with an explosion (knock) rather than a burn of the fuel. I used to own an IHC 11/2 M igniter style engine that was belted to a generater. It was a Kerosene burner. If I didn't use the water injecter, this engine would run hot enough that I could short out the igniter, and the engine would ron as a diesel for quite a while! The bearings sure didn't like it though, and I wouldn't recommend running your engines in this manner for any length of time. .
Andrew
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Old 03-12-2005, 09:51:31 AM
Charlie
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Default Re: playing with fuel

I've played around some with a few different mixtures & what I kind of settled down to is half camp fuel & half 100LL Av-Gas. It doesn't go dead & burns real clean. You have to get the mixture pretty rich to get much smoke.The camp fuel has a lot of light ends in it, so the vaporization is very good. The only thing is, it's pretty dry, so I always add some Marvel Mystery Oil to the brew! Charlie
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Old 03-12-2005, 10:04:56 AM
Chip Watford Chip Watford is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Skylar,As far as high octane racing fuel goes,a low compression engine actually will run somewhat cooler on high octane gas as the ignition is slower and not as spontaneous as say 87 octane .The higher the octane rating,the greater the resistance to ignition.On high comprssion engines you have to run higher octane fuel to prevent early detonation.My son raced high performance motorcycles for years and we found on engines with stock compression,that they ran better on 93 octane pump gas but once we milled the heads and raised the compression we had to run 112 or 115 octane fuel.Any time you raise the compression ratio you generate more heat and fuel actually has a cooling effect in the cylinder as anyone who has ever run too lean of a mixture can verify! Chip
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Old 03-12-2005, 07:40:00 PM
Sky
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRR
Skylar Wrong These engines were designed to run on white gas (coleman fuel) or unleaded.Unless you have T/G engine then you could run kerosene once warmed up.They will run on just about anything but unleaded white gas is what the hit&miss were made to run on. They didnt have leaded when these engines were built. Check the archives there has been several discussions on fuel.BobRR

not to be offensive but i wasn't talking about flywheel engines, though id love to have one, but the 20's 30's 40's and 50's engines, car engines, briggs & Strattons and stuff, the lead in the gas also cushioned the valves on them, thats were i say they depended on that lead,..as for kerosene, i know they ran that cuz back then it was cheaper, i never did experiment with mixing diferent feuls and stuff, i just put something up here cuz the mixing the fuels was just a thought, never tryed it,........but to keep it simple, like i say,..i'll just stick with gas lead and kerosene,....itell i get that flywheel engine i been dreaming about!...
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Old 03-12-2005, 08:07:40 PM
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Fred Van Hook Fred Van Hook is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Really the lower the octane the better. Before WWII octane of gas was 40 or lower. Coleman fuel octane is 55. Older engines had low compression ratio, usually about 4 to 1 or lower. So 87 octane is like running premium in them today. If your engine runs fine on regular gas that is what I would run. I do use a lot of Coleman and a small amount of Marvel Mystery oil or WD40 for some calories and upper cyl. lube. If you are having a soot and carbon problem you might try running Lantern fuel and see what happens. Let us know what your results are. Have fun. Fred
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Old 03-12-2005, 08:19:18 PM
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Craig A Craig A is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Unless it is a high compression engine (unlikely) I wouldn't waste my time screwing around with anything but regular gasoline or white gas unless you LIKE carbon chunks, diluted crankcase oil, carboned up valves and stuck rings. They NEVER run hot enough to burn heavier fuels decently anyway and even if they DID they STILL don't burn the heavy fuels the way a diesel does. I DO run a 60/40 gas/diesel mix in my Rumely but that IS a comparatively high compression engine, it likes that mixture and I can burn it without having to mess around with water injection. And I DO work it.....HARD sometimes. If it WON'T work, it's not MINE.....
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Old 03-12-2005, 11:09:47 PM
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kerogas kerogas is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

I have used a lot of white gas in my hit and miss engines . Word on the street is it now has a bunch of methanol which will rust out a tank pretty quick . Havent investigated this . The cool thing about the coleman fuel, or white gas , is it keeps forever almost as long as drip gas . Thats why aI was originally using it . no gummy mess in my check valves and tank .

Chuck Balyeat
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Old 03-12-2005, 11:12:53 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylar King
not to be offensive but i wasn't talking about flywheel engines, though id love to have one, but the 20's 30's 40's and 50's engines, car engines, briggs & Strattons and stuff, the lead in the gas also cushioned the valves on them, thats were i say they depended on that lead,..as for kerosene, i know they ran that cuz back then it was cheaper, i never did experiment with mixing diferent feuls and stuff, i just put something up here cuz the mixing the fuels was just a thought, never tryed it,........but to keep it simple, like i say,..i'll just stick with gas lead and kerosene,....itell i get that flywheel engine i been dreaming about!...
I wasnt referring to just flywheel engines! They didnt put lead into gas untill at least the mid to late 20's and that was a antiknock compound for higher compression engines in big cars!Where you getting leaded fuel? Briggs and stuff not! I think even in the 60's-70,s briggs recomended nonleaded fuel and they never were made to run on kero that I know of??How do you figure adding something to the mix is going to be cheaper? Model airplanes didnt run white gas. It is a mix of nitromethane?Really makes a 2stroke hum used to run a mix in my dirt bike! Just better do it right BobRR
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Old 03-13-2005, 01:05:21 PM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

In Mac Leods original post he said that after running his engine for some time it had a lot of build up of unburnt stuff. Probably a combination of fuel and lubrication oil that got past the rings. He then stated that after running it with other combinations of fuel that it had a bit of sludge but was over all clean.

I believe that the operative factor here was the amount of time that he ran the engine. The first being "after all the time I had it running" the second after several short duration tests with different fuel combinations.

I believe it takes a little time for the first acumulation of soot and oil residue to start to build up in the combustion chamber of a well running engine. After the process starts the contamination starts to coke up. Then the contaminates start to build up on each other at an excellerated rate. Some times some of this carbon will break loose and be seen as sparks flying out of the exhaust pipe.

Anyway I don't think that there is any clean fuel other than hydrogen which exhausts as water. Even hydrogen might leave a build up from the oil that passes the rings unless the combustion temprature is high enough to burn it away.

I like to play with fuel too but in a different way. I like to either mix a small amount of castor oil with the gas or put some in the cylinder oiler. This produces a very pleasant smell that I call engine perfume.

When I was growing up in the early 50s in Long Beach Cal. my father used to take us to the Boat races at Marine Stadium, Built for the 1932 Olympic Water events. The boats racers used castor oil probably to lubricate the upper end of their engines because many of them used nytro methanol in their fuel. We also went to the Long Beach Memorial Stadium where they some times staged motor cycle, sprint car and midget race car events. They also burned castor oil.

When I have run castor oil in one of my engines I have had many other engine men and spectators walk by and then return to ask what fuel I burn in my engines. I usually joke with them telling them it's nitro methanol. Then I tell them the truth about the castor oil that I am burning.

Many of them say that it brings back memories of when they were young and smelled that same smell. Its funny how much better our memories are with smell than with our other sences.

I have run the castor oil in spark plug engines but have not yet tried it in igniter engines. I suspect that it might be a little more problematic in an igniter engine causing the igniter to foul after sone running time.

Most original engine handbooks recommend removing the head and cleaning the carbon deposits from time to time.

I for one don"t mind removing the head or igniter on most of my Hit and Miss engines as it is such an easy process. I usually put grease on at least one side of my head or igniter gaskets to prevent them from seperating or being damaged during this process. Draining the cooling water is the only real pain involved in the process. So removing the carbon and cleaning the head and piston or igniter when it becomes necessary is just more of the fun I have with my engines.

Have fun with your engines. Dick

Last edited by Dick Welty; 03-13-2005 at 01:17:45 PM.
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Old 03-13-2005, 11:18:40 PM
Sky
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRR
I wasnt referring to just flywheel engines! They didnt put lead into gas untill at least the mid to late 20's and that was a antiknock compound for higher compression engines in big cars!Where you getting leaded fuel? Briggs and stuff not! I think even in the 60's-70,s briggs recomended nonleaded fuel and they never were made to run on kero that I know of??How do you figure adding something to the mix is going to be cheaper? Model airplanes didnt run white gas. It is a mix of nitromethane?Really makes a 2stroke hum used to run a mix in my dirt bike! Just better do it right BobRR

This is what im trying to say, then, most everyone knows kerosene was cheaper than gas back then, so they started on gas, then switched to kero, on SOME engines, heck, you probably know that, everybody collector or non collector knows that,well, almost everyone, if old enough, even some tractors, you can run leaded gas in these old ones, and briggs, it does help the valves, from ware, and also yes, as an anti knock compound, doesnt hurt them, matter fact, they run just fine, i get some of that lead substitute even to do this mixture, i noticed it does help these old engine, through being a machanic for 15 years i know what im talkin about,, done too many tune ups and rebuilds,...have also seen lead deposits on these Briggs, but i noticed on these old ones that i have ran, with lead, and ones without lead, some engines have proven to me the one with lead has a little less valve ware than just the straight gas, even diaphram carbs have proven to me, run one on lead, your diaphrams last longer, for instance, 2 cycles nowa day's, diaphrams dryed hard as card bored in a year or 2, one with lead, lasts 4 or 5, this has happened to me,, i wouldnt feel safe me saying that all these 20's 30's 40's and 50's briggs engines has not been run on leaded gas, it has been done, for a fact, i know.
and why, if these small engines were not ment for leaded gas, does the book i have show me small engine spark plug pictures of lead deposits, and carbon soot and so on, they have been run on lead, todays engines..NO, yesturdays, ya., so it prooves on the old ones you can run them with leaded gas and it does for a fact, help the valves, and so on...im not saying boy im smart, and not being a hotshot, im just saying i have seen to many things to not be true.....never treyed gas with kero though, well, maybee once, but as of the oldy's, i stick with lead and gas, the new ones, todays, i run straight gas, the diference between todays and yesturdays are 2 diferent thing, what they can and cant run on.........lead does help.... ....and i did menchine kero was cheaper than gas back then didnt i?....i didnt say nothin bout no mix.,...just gave the menchineables, thats all.
second though,....if i knew what this was gonna bring, i wouldnt have posted in the first place...sheesh again, this all was just a thought in the very first post, i didnt say to actually TRY IT, but again, on old engines, i do run a mix with partially lead with gas.......and no it dont give ME, any huge chunks of carbon eaither,....and the engines dont put up a fit cuz i do this, they run smooth as a sowin menchine....
but 3erd thought....lead is an option.....i do it cuz i know it helps.
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Old 03-13-2005, 11:33:25 PM
Sky
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Come to think of it, i have a picture of a briggs & Stratton with a split tank, one side with gas the other with kero....also have a pic of one with gas and other side of propain?..i think it is,...with conversion valves and what not.....propain burns clean too!...though i never ran that stuff eaither, i dont like the chance of an engine maybee getting to hot from my concoction or too much of something cousing misfires or what not,...naw, i definitly stick with gas and lead and maybee kero.

hope my posts dont bring any hard feelins to anyone, i didnt mean that to happen...believe me, thats the last thing i want,...i got enough troubles as it is! well,...anywho
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Old 03-14-2005, 12:39:29 PM
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Default Re: playing with fuel

It says in every Briggs manual I have ever read to use unleaded gas. And these are the originals that were printed back in the 1940's and 1950's. Leaded gas in a small engine will just cause more deposits to build up in the cumbustion camber and that is the last thing you need. Why do you want to use lead when the maufacturer tells you not to?

There was a kerosene conversion for some of the Briggs engines that used a split tank and an extra head gasket to lower compression. There were also propane conversions.
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:12:12 PM
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Forrest A Forrest A is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Lead was added as a lubricant. It wasn't till the late 70's when catalitic converters were being made and installed that unleaded fuels were required (to prevent plugging of the cat. conv.). (It's hard to believe that the health factor wasn't an issue first!)

The reason you shouldn't run unleaded fuels in your pre 1970 engines is that for the most part the valve seats were soft and the lead made them last a lot longer. Remove the lead and it wont be long until you will need a valve job.
I found another use for using a lead aditive in my old engines, it some how prevent the plugs from fowling. I had problems up until I stated using a lead substitute.

Forrest
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Old 03-14-2005, 03:19:07 PM
Chris Curtis
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Hey Skyler, calm down and turn on your spell check, everybody is here to help. As far as high octane racing fuel, I let someone talk me into using that in my Hit and miss engines and I had nothing but hard starting, cold running sputtering engines. The fuel was 115 octane and DID have lead, you can still get it for racing/ offroad use for about $5.00 a gallon. I found my engines run their best on 87 octane gas that has sat in the barn over the winter, now figure that one out!
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Old 03-14-2005, 08:11:48 PM
Sky
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Default Re: playing with fuel

im calm, this rilly would have been alot simpler if i just had explained why i use lead in old engines like Forrest did, about the valve seats and valves, this is what i ment, or should have said in the first place,..i dont mean any hard feelins for anyone, i just tryed to explain why i use lead in long story form, when it should have been short, guess i didnt say the whole thing right, or didnt have the words for it........anywho, this is why i use lead, for the old engines, the newer ones ya dont hafta worry about cuz there so.......oh....how would ya say it?.....complex,....that explains why you hafta have a special tool for just about every thing today,.....not simple and easy like yesturday....


well, i explained all i wanted to and didnt know it would be THIS serious and i apologise for that..........nuff said from me anyway....


Sky
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Old 03-14-2005, 10:07:42 PM
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Keith Smigle Keith Smigle is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Now here is one for you!

The fellow I bought my 4HP Associated off of had a small Briggs engine (I have no idea what model, the only ones I recognize are the Y, FH & WMB) and it looked like any other old briggs except that he had removed the spark plug and replaced it with a hot tube set up. He started it up for me and it ran great!

Now hows that for an interesting project to build!
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:38:32 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: playing with fuel

Keith,

I think that it would be fun to try to get a hot tube to work on a Briggs and Stratton just for an experiment.

At the Tulare Antique engine show a couple of years ago I was talking to someone about hot tubes. I think it was Bill Baldwin who showed me a hot tube ignition on one of his early engines maybe a Western. Anyway I asked him where he got the hot tubes and he told me. I don't remember where he said that he got the ones he was using, but I think he suggested that you could just use non galvanized 1/4 3/8 or 1/2 inch pipe cut to various lengths and welded closed on the top with a good deep pocket weld.

He suggested various lengths because each different engine needs to be played with to get the best ignition on hot tube. I have never played with one but I think I if I wanted to make a hot tube Briggs and Stratton I would start with a cast Iron engine that runs well and is easy to start on spark plug ignition.

I would brake out the center electrode and ceramic insulator of a spark plug.
I would then make a hot tube out of a piece if 1/4" pipe about 6" long by welding it to the spark plug base. I would then Weld up the other end of the pipe making sure that I did a good job so that the weld couldn't possably be shot out like a bullet.

I would then start the engine on the original spark plug to get it hot, then I would remove the spark plug and hook a wire with a large allagator clip around the threads and ground the other end of the wire to a bolt on the engine. This would prevent damage to the mag coil while the engine was running on the hot tube.

I would then screw the hot tube into the sparkplug hole and heat the tube about half way up using a propane torch. When it got red hot I would try to start the engine. I think that with some experimentation moving the hot spot up or down the tube or adjusting the tube length, the engine could be made to run that way.

I don't think that any thing would happen if the Homemade hot tube split or burnt through after a while. I think that it would just spit some and stop running.

If anyone tries this please let us know if you have any luck.

Dick
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