Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Articles] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Chat] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] - [eBay Tools]

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Antique Gas Engine Discussion
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Antique Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Antique Gas Engine Discussion

FM Headless Z questions


this thread has 15 replies and has been viewed 2325 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-02-2005, 09:25:39 PM
TomFG's Avatar
TomFG TomFG is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota USA
Posts: 428
Thanks: 1
Thanked 29 Times in 13 Posts
Default FM Headless Z questions

Brought home a new toy today. A 1918 FM Headless Z. Loaded it up in my van, and started driving. Didn't get too far and smelled gas. The Mixer was dripping gas steady, coming out the intake. Am wondering if it was just
because the van was in motion, or if there's something inside the mixer that's going to need fixing? Had to put a plastic bag over the mixer to catch the gas leaking..... and it drained out about 1 /2 a cup. Had to drive home with the window's cracked open for a 100 miles to keep the fumes under control.
The lady wasn't impressed !
Also, the engine is mounted on a steel frame..... didn't think it was original, but I see a photo from a parts manual online of one that looks like it's mounted on steel skids? Is steel skids original? Thanks.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-02-2005, 10:29:17 PM
Junkologist's Avatar
Junkologist Junkologist is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Avon, Ohio, USA
Posts: 3,859
Thanks: 2,737
Thanked 3,286 Times in 1,433 Posts
Images: 129
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

I don't know how gas could be dripping from the mixer, unless it had some trapped in there somehow. The engine pulls the gas up to the mixer by suction. Gas cannot leak out by gravity. The only things inside the mixer are the orifice and the needle valve. There is a check valve at the bottom of the fuel line inside the fuel tank. Make sure the check valve is functioning properly, or the engine will not run right.

The headless "Z" engines came from the factory with stamped steel skids. A factory set of trucks could also be bolted directly to the skids. Here's a photo of my engine which is all original.

Mike
Attached Thumbnails
Fairbanks headless.JPG  
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-02-2005, 11:29:17 PM
oldironcollector's Avatar
oldironcollector oldironcollector is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Blue Ridge, Georgia, USA
Posts: 676
Thanks: 267
Thanked 436 Times in 141 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

If the needle valve was open any at all the constant sloshing of gas inside the tank can cause the checkball to rise off the seat, then fall back down and after a few times it will create a syphion condition. I have a syphion hose that has a marble in the end of it and all you do is insert it into a gas tank and shake it and it will start syphioning all by itself .it works on the same line is what it sounds like you are experiencing, It is called a magic syphion. Pretty neat item, I bought it off a tool truck.

Denny
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-03-2005, 12:05:58 AM
TomFG's Avatar
TomFG TomFG is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota USA
Posts: 428
Thanks: 1
Thanked 29 Times in 13 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

Thanks for your replies. Maybe the gas was siphoning from the tank. Neat photo of your original engine mike. Will have to look at my metal skids tomorrow to see if they could be original, but I doubt it.
I don't have a hand crank for this engine. Do you think I'd be able to start it without? Might need two people..... one on the flywheel, and the other on the intake valve? Thanks, Tom
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-03-2005, 01:57:50 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Temecula, California USA
Posts: 267
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Images: 4
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

Tom,

You should be able to start it by yourself by turning it over with your right hand on the flywheel and your left hand holding the intake valve open untill the engine has completed the exhaust cycle. Then open the needle valve about 1 turn and hold your finger over the air intake and continue turning untill you hit compression. Then step to the rear of the engine and pull it over compression and it should fire.

If after several pulls it still hasn't started check for a flooded condition. If it is flooded then turn off the needle valve and continue to turn the engine over untill it starts. Then open the needle valve enough to keep the engine running smoothly. After it warms up turn off the needle valve to where it just runs smoothly. Always try to run towards the lean mixture as a rich mixture will cause your igniter to foul frequently.

You will notice a 3/8" verticle hole next to the top bolt that holds the mixer/intake valve cage onto the engine. That hole has a very small hole in the bottom that feeds into the intake valve chamber. I assume that the hole is for priming the engine although I have not read that in any literature. Most of the engines I have seen seem to have that hole plugged with dirt or paint.

You might try to prime the engine with a squirt of gas in that hole if it isn't plugged up. In that case I wouldn't choke the engine initially but would just open the needle valve.

The original instructions say the needle valve should be opened about 1 turn, but I find that with original well used needle valves somewhat less is usually better.

I see that you have experience with old engines but for those that read this that are new to this check the grease cups, oilers and oil everything that looks like it could possibly need it before starting any new engine.

Good luck starting your new old engine.

Dick

Last edited by Dick Welty; 04-03-2005 at 02:03:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-03-2005, 09:35:24 AM
TomFG's Avatar
TomFG TomFG is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota USA
Posts: 428
Thanks: 1
Thanked 29 Times in 13 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

Thanks for the starting instructions Dick. Although the engine came with a supposed rebuilt mag, it also still has attached a low tension coil, with alligator clips to hook up to a battery, and a small clip to hook onto the igniter. My question is, will I do any damage to the Sumter Magneto if I hook up the low tention coil to a battery to make it start easier? I would unhook the low tension coil after it started, to see if the mag would take over.
Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-03-2005, 09:58:31 AM
Elden DuRand's Avatar
Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Port St. Joe, Florida USA
Posts: 6,897
Thanks: 10,490
Thanked 6,176 Times in 2,454 Posts
Images: 6
Exclamation Re: FM Headless Z questions

Do NOT hook up a battery and coil (low tension) with any connection to the magneto! If you do, you could demagnetize the magnets of the mag.

One thing you could do is to rig up a double pole (center off) switch so the ignitor is connected to the center of the switch. Then hook the ignitor end of the battery coil to one side of the switch and the magneto output to the other.

That way, there's no chance the mag can be harmed. Switch to battery and start the engine. Once running, just switch to mag.

Take care - Elden
http://home.cybertron.com/~edurand
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-03-2005, 12:42:06 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 85
Thanked 437 Times in 316 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

I start mine just like it says in the Fairbanks instructions for this engine and, so far, it is the only engine I have that I start using the handcrank. Since this engine is "handy", I'll go out and try to start it without the crank and report back.

I also got mine running first on a low tension coil with battery just to make sure I had a working engine, then tried the magneto. I never allowed the battery current to cross over to the magneto!!!!

Unsuccessful at running on the magneto, I read the archives extensively, searching headless, sumtor, ignitor, low tension, etc, etc.

A very helpful tip for me was to remove the inlet valve assembly and observe the ignitor directly, while cranking the engine. If you crane your neck around, you can look in and see if the ignitor is sparking. If you don't see a spark, then it ainta gonna run.

I went through a bit of an ordeal getting my magneto to sustain output and then found that the timing marks for the magneto were just not correct anymore. I had corroborated the location of the timing marks and followed the Fairbanks instructions, to the letter, and found the exhaust valve timing was correct but by observing the ignitor points directly (with a magneto that now had good output), I could not see a good spark.

I figured that I would start advancing the magneto gear one tooth at a time and see what I got. I started with the marks aligned as per factory and got little or no spark. I then advanced the magneto gear one tooth clockwise and saw a good spark! Advancing the gear one more tooth obtained a weak spark and one more tooth resulted in no spark. Hmmmm....

I reversed the teeth one at a time and got exactly the same results, at each tooth setting, so I left the magneto gear timing at one tooth clockwise from "factory" marks and the rest is history! Starts and runs reliably!!

There were certainly a lot of step I'm leaving out but taking off the inlet valve assembly and watching for spark at the points was a key for me, as was checking that the magneto has at least 7 volts a.c. indicated.

Obtaining and sustaining voltage with the Sumter No. 12 is another story. Searching in the archives is great fun and very productive!! Thanks to all who have contributed to my success and fun!!!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-03-2005, 03:27:58 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 85
Thanked 437 Times in 316 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

I tried starting my Fairbanks headless without the crank and was unsuccessful despite repeated attempts. I then used the crank and it took right off.

My method with the crank more or less duplicates what is in the Fairbanks headless instructions: Open the mixer needle valve 1/2 turn, hold inlet valve completely open and spin engine briskly while simultaneously sliding my fingers about 2/3's across the air inlet through one suction stroke and hearing the gas suck into the mixer.....then release "choking" fingers and release inlet valve while continuing cranking....off she goes.....then adjust needle valve on mixer.

If I flood the engine drastically, it won't start, so I close mixer needle valve, open inlet valve and crank briskly to air things out. Then I go through the starting sequence all over again. This has never failed for me.

My engine is an all original one, including paint and trucks but it has never been "restored". All attention to this engine has been about conserving originality of parts and paint. After it sat in pieces for a few years, I decided to put it together so it didn't get "lost" if I got hit by a bolt of lightning or something.

Even though the inlet valve and seat were well worn, and I never pulled the piston to examine the rings, etc; I thought I'd give it a try, as was. Ditto on the ignitor. It ain't purrrfect but it works fine. Compression was good and it ran, so left it alone.

Perhaps a very tight engine with a bit hotter magneto might start by priming and then flipping the flywheels on cue, but not mine.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-03-2005, 08:22:56 PM
TomFG's Avatar
TomFG TomFG is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota USA
Posts: 428
Thanks: 1
Thanked 29 Times in 13 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

I got the new toy running!.... with no crank. But I cheated... I used the low tension coil and battery. Didn't have enough hands to mess with the intake valve, so I just pulled the engine through a couple of intake strokes with my fingers over the intake, until gas dripped out, then wheeled it up to the compression stroke... and pulled it through. Away she went. After running it a minute or so on the coil, I did a switch-a-roo to the Sumter mag, and it ran fine. Some day I'll try, but wouldn't bet that it would start on the mag without a crank to get it wheeling a little faster.
Interesting about what was said that you can watch the ingniter spark by taking the intake valve assembly out. Thanks all.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-03-2005, 09:29:17 PM
Rich Martz's Avatar
Rich Martz Rich Martz is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Peotone, Illinois, USA
Posts: 540
Thanks: 635
Thanked 523 Times in 123 Posts
Images: 23
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

Sounds like you need to charge the magnets.....I had the same problem.....now I pull mine through once with my finger over intake......then it starts on the first turn of the wheel.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-03-2005, 11:13:13 PM
Junkologist's Avatar
Junkologist Junkologist is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Avon, Ohio, USA
Posts: 3,859
Thanks: 2,737
Thanked 3,286 Times in 1,433 Posts
Images: 129
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

I have never been able to start my engine on the mag. I have spun it as fast as I can with a crank and not even a pop out of it. Runs fine on the mag once I get it started with a battery and coil. Just recently I had the magneto charged and thought I had the problem licked, but it still acts the same way. I am going to try KidDynamo's approach and see what happens.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-04-2005, 12:56:46 AM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 85
Thanked 437 Times in 316 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

My first startups were with a 12 volt car battery and a Thordson low tension coil. This setup had such a hot, hot spark that I do believe it kicked back on me a time or two, just rolling it over by hand but I was leery about the crank and it never got me! I could switch to mag and it would run but never would start it on magneto until going through all the charging, etc.

During my saga of Sumter magnetos, I noted that I got about 7 to 7-1/2 volts a.c. from my No.12 but got about 14 v.a.c. from my No.22, and about 22 to 24 v.a.c. from my No 30. Seemed logical- the bigger the mag, the higher the output.......

On the No. 12 for the headless, I charged the magnets both on the magneto and removed (with keepers, always and with index marks for accurate magnet re-install). My best voltages, peak and average, were obtained charging the magnets while removed, but I can't say I had the best arrangement for charging with magnets on. Also, as I recall, my 7 to 7-1/2 volts were a bit lower than what I had hoped to achieve. Oh well.....

Someday, I'd like to get the magnets charged by an expert using a charger requiring a forklift to move it, but for now, at least, I don't worry too much about the crank whacking me on a backfire! Good thing, because I'm breaking all the cranking rules- got my thumb wrapped 'round it and I'm cranking fast, full turns like I'm raising the well bucket!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-04-2005, 04:02:44 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Temecula, California USA
Posts: 267
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Images: 4
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

Tom,

I glad you got your new toy running.

Have any of you other guys ever had any experience using the priming hole on the headless or Eclypse engine? They both seem to have a hole about 3/8" with a pin hole in the bottom that allows a shot of primming gas to be introduced at the intake valve.

Dick
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-04-2005, 10:14:04 AM
TomFG's Avatar
TomFG TomFG is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minnesota USA
Posts: 428
Thanks: 1
Thanked 29 Times in 13 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

KidDynamo - I was curious on how you tested you Sumter No. 12 Mag for voltage. On or off the engine? Spinning the flywheel with the intake valve held open? On a bench with a drill motor? I'd be interested to see what mine mag puts out under the same circumstances, as I was told it was rebuilt.
I can hardly feel any magnetism when I put a piece of metal across the bottom side of the horseshoe magnet. Is this because the mag is all "together"? Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-05-2005, 03:11:22 AM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 85
Thanked 437 Times in 316 Posts
Default Re: FM Headless Z questions

I use a 1/2" Magnum Holeshooter Millwaukee Drill motor. I can't read the rpm tag and suspect the drill turns faster than the magneto would be spun by the engine but it is a repeatable test, thus comparable, at least in my shop.

I dismount the magneto and test it on the bench. The drill chuck is big enough to handily grasp the magneto drive gear nut without bodgering it all up. With test leads attached, I just hold down the mag with the left hand and work the drill motor with my right.

If you have a digital v.o.m. that has a peak hold feature, you can hand flip the gear to get peak readings but it's hard to tell apples from apples and the 'old thumb and fingernail can get mighty sore after a couple hundred flips, or so.

Almost every magneto I encounter and test has bone dry bearings, either from recent cleaning, last lube job was an eon ago or both. I alway make sure I oil the bearings or bushings before spinning the mag. It is easy to forget and the drill motor (or engine) can spin dry bearings without effort but at what cost to the bushings?

Other mags besides the Sumters have been turned by my drill motor but not always at full speed by the drill. I think my drill maxes out at about 1000 rpm or less. I've found this speed is compatable with the Sumter mags I tested. Other mags, like Webster and Wizard oscillating mags, I don't recall how fast I turned them- I think a bit slower.

I have ignitors and starting levers for testing some of those magnetos. Cock the mag with the starting handle, dim the lights, trip the mag, and see a hot blue spark at the ignitor points is an awesome event but that's kind of hard to do with the rotary mags.

I can state unequivocably, though, on my headless, if you hold open the intake valve, place your finger on the ignitor power lead, and crank the engine round real fast, when the ignitor trips, if your magneto has some juice, you'll feel a strong shock in your finger- a definite power spike when the points open. You may still not have running condition though- I got a lot of these shocks and still didn't really have sparking points, yet.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
FM Headless ErikG Antique Gas Engine Discussion 12 04-11-2006 04:13:07 PM
Fairbanks Morse Headless Engine Questions Jonathan Widelo Antique Gas Engine Discussion 35 09-11-2005 08:12:58 PM
FM - Headless ErikG Antique Gas Engine Discussion 9 05-19-2005 10:22:05 PM
1-1/2 hp Headless fairbanks questions Rich Martz Antique Engine Archives 5 12-03-2004 06:21:09 PM
HELP!...FM Headless..... Warren Pennington Antique Engine Archives 3 04-23-2004 06:33:09 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:31:08 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277