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Antique Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Antique Gas Engine Discussion

3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!


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  #1  
Old 05-05-2005, 08:35:04 PM
Rex Pyles Rex Pyles is offline
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Photo 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

How common are the 3hp Z Fairbanks Hit and Miss?
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2005, 11:08:42 PM
Meco3hp Meco3hp is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Hello,
I've heard of them, and I've been going to shows since 1994 as a exhibitor, and I've got alot of FBM books and info, but I've never seen one anywhere, even in all of the info I have. I'd call that very rare! Good find!

Thanks
Richard
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Old 05-06-2005, 08:55:57 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

I sure would like to see a good, clear, close up photo of the speed control on that three horse. And maybe even borrow it (and the mixer)to make a casting???.. .Been looking for one a Long time!..Yeah, I'd say they are fairly rare.

Or better yet! Just sell me that engine!

David M.
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:05:08 AM
Jonathan Widelo Jonathan Widelo is offline
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Lightbulb Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

David,
Hit and miss Enterprises has a mixer for sale as well as all the parts for the timer/ speed control , it is the same as on the 1 1/2 -2 hp battery equipped engine.
Hope this helps
~Jonathan
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:23:08 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

David,

I think that this engine is probably the competition red line 3HP engine. I think maybe it is the big brother to the 1 1/2 HP dishpan Hit and Miss engine.

If so it might use the same governor and ignition timing as the 1 1/2 HP engine. If that is the case then a dishpan governor might do the trick.

The mixer is certainly just a larger version of the dishpan mixer. If the governor is the same then the mixer is probably harder to find than the governor. It also looks like there is a metal battery and coil box on this engine which would further indicate that it is a Redline engine.

I can't find my Yellow book right now to refresh my memory about this engine.

Maybe Rex can tell us if the governor has the slanted gears and if the buzz coil switch contact is built into the governor. A picture of the other side of the engine would also help.

I don't know if the 3HP Redline engine had dishpan flywheels or not but if they did then maybe someone changed them somewhere along this engines life.

Anyway this looks like a great engine Rex.

Looks like Jonathan is faster than I am on the reply.

Dick
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Fairbanks Morse Governor.jpg   fm3s2.jpg  

Last edited by Dick Welty; 05-06-2005 at 11:35:14 AM.
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:30:31 AM
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Joel Mosley Joel Mosley is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Johnathan,

Are you sure that the carb and governor parts on a 1 1/2 are the same as the 3 HP? I don't have a parts book, but I do have one 1 1/2 and three of the 3 HP engines and I a fairly confident that the 3 HP parts are bigger. Do you have any parts lists to verify this. I would look at mine, but the are 100 miles away. By the way I need 2 Battery boxes for the 3 HP engines. Are they the same size as the 1 1/2 HP engines.

Joel
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:45:39 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Joel,

I would bet that the mixer is a larger version of the 1 1/2 HP mixer because the venturi on the 1 1/2 hp is only about 1/2" and that wouldn't be large enough for a 3 HP.

I have about 6 complete 1 1/2 HP dishpan engines some with spoked flywheels, none with battery boxes and only 1 with an original all metal oiler. They are great engines and good reliable runners.

Dick
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Old 05-06-2005, 02:42:54 PM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Nope! the three and six horse engines use a common governor and mixer set-up, and then the 1 1/2, the 2, and the ZC 3 horse engines use a common mixer and head...Wish they would interchange, but it just ain't so! ...I have a six horse hit & Miss Fairbanks, but I had to make my own latchout assembly from scratch, and I just use the original mixer in a fixed position....That's why I'd like to find a three horse and make some copies of the mixer and latchout because they'll fit the 3 AND 6 horse.

David M.
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Old 05-06-2005, 07:43:56 PM
Rex Pyles Rex Pyles is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Sorry guys you will just have to go to the auction up in Wisconsin this June with the 250 plus engines to buy it, and I think there was another one amongst all the pictures. There was an article a couple of years ago in GEM about them. Hopefully somebody will get them and post some info about them!!!!
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:17:56 PM
Jim McCracken Jim McCracken is offline
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Smile Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

The 3 hp Fairbanks Morse is somewhat uncommon although I personally
wouldn't call it rare.I have owned two 3 hp hit & miss in the last 20 years.
I still own one.It is red and reasonably complete.I also have two dishpan
hit& miss.The carbs& governors are of the same design,however on mine
the 3 hp models are larger as are the pushrods.I can't say they are all this way,only know mine are.Also my 3 hp has spiral cut gears.These gears were
only used a couple of years.Per Wendels Power of the past book,the spiral gear 3 hp like mine was made for a couple of years.If I read it correctly,
about 34,000 were built.
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Old 05-07-2005, 11:02:20 AM
Jonathan Widelo Jonathan Widelo is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Hi , All
I just checked in my master parts book Repair Parts List 9625c which covers every Z Series Engine from the 1 1/2 hp headless to the 7 1/2 hp style B engine the Battery Box part 929-C is the same box for 1 1/2 -3 hp engines, I do not know of anyone who reproduces them , I was able to find a nice original one on Ebay for under 80 bucks complete with everything except the coil. Dick was right in his assumption the mixer for the 1 1/2 and 3 hp engines are different according to the book. The governor assembly is different , but the timer assembly is the same according to Hit and Miss Enterprises (which is what I meant)
here are some part number I took off there web site :

HM26855 Timer Assy., Battery Model only , 1-1/2 -3hp
(Timer Assy, includes timer plate cover , 4 thin shims 1 thick shim & insulators) $ 37.50
HM2686A Timer Plate, battery model only, 1-1/2 to 3HP 3.00
HM2686B Timer Cover, battery model only 1-1/2 to 3HP 17.50
HM2686C Timer Insulator Pack (Insulators and bushing) 10.00
HM2686D Timer Shim, battery model only, .018 thick 1.50
HM2686E Timer Shim, battery model only, .042 thick, 1-1/2 to 3HP 1.50

3 hp hit and miss engines were only available with spoked flywheels , according to everything I have read on the subject. David, I never heard of a 6 hp Fairbanks hit and miss , do you have any pictures , I have never seen one in any gas engine book , they must be super super rare

~Jonathan
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Old 05-08-2005, 09:24:17 AM
Warren Pennington Warren Pennington is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Jon... I have a 6 hp FMZ ignitor model thats a hit and miss. Its also webster fired so imagine its a Canadian engine....at least thats what Ed at HitnMiss thinks. Heres a couple pic's of the linkages. Wish I knew someone with a parts book covering the Canadian engines...In the top view you can see the lock out blade sliding by thr catch block....the side view shows the linkage in the "lockout" position.....warren
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Old 05-08-2005, 01:21:36 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Warren thats very interesting. What yr. is it? BobRR
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:37:46 AM
Warren Pennington Warren Pennington is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Bob....its a 1918.....really a good runner but it has the poorest castings of the crankcase and flywheels that I've ever seen. I guess in those years "quality control" was in its infancy.......warren
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Old 05-09-2005, 05:52:48 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Warren Does it use the carb. with the fuel pump in it. I know what ya mean about the castings my 1916 is a little rough too.Be interesting to see if I could make mine into a hit&miss! With the webster probably starts pretty easy too.?BobRR
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Old 05-10-2005, 01:38:43 PM
Warren Pennington Warren Pennington is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Bob...it doesn't have a carb but looks to be a fabricated mixer. ( I'm at work now so that means no pictures) Don't see why you couldn't use the carb if you made a hit & miss. If you want I can email some pictures of another FMZ I own that has been converted to hit and miss and it will give to a idea of how to built a linkage. This one I've shown pictures of looks to have most of its linkages drop forged and is pretty elaborate....warren
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Old 05-11-2005, 12:29:11 AM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

The 7 HP is a rare bird, I have only seen 2 in the 45 years I have been looking The timer on the redline engines is the same as used on the special electric engines, although the coil arangement is different.
Andrew
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:14:32 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

Jonathan, I finally remembered to take my camera home and get some shots of the six horse hit & miss governor. It is a custom made latch out, but works very well, and the big six makes quite a thump when it hits...Also have a 3 horse ZC hit & miss, a heavy flyhweel 1 1/2 hit & miss, a two horse spoke flywheel hit & miss with magneto ignition, and a 2 horse eclipise hit & miss... I obviously like fooling with Fairbanks Morse stuff!

David M.
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FM 6 HP GOV S.jpg   FM ZC GOV S.jpg   FM HEAVY 112 S.jpg   FM 2 HP SIDE S.jpg  
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:17:42 AM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

I bought a 3/6 hp ZA hit and miss Fairbanks governor a few years ago. It had been "soaking" in a bucket of water, but electrolysis and elbow grease salvaged all pieces except the springs. It had the angle cut gears on it and the governor gear was in poor shape. None of the timer switch stuff was included.

Later, I bought a 3 horse ZA with a busted pot-metal mag bracket so it seemed that I might be able to do a little combining. My thinking was that I would use an AB33/34 magneto, change the governor gears to the straight cut gears, use the timing pin/ early-late device on the original governor timing gear, and not use the hit and miss cam. If this all worked, I would not have to come up with the timing switch parts and I wouldn't have to change out the crank gear on my engine.

As I proceded, I noticed that if I drilled and tapped one hole in the hit/miss governor bracket, inconspicuous at that, I could mount the throttling governor arrangement onto the bracket, temporarily, instead of the latch-out parts. This would allow me to get the engine running for a first time using my throttling carburetor and I don't yet have a hit and miss 3 hp carb, so I made the tapped hole and mounted the pieces.

I had never known how the hit and miss latch-out worked until I tried to install the original pushrod. The hole in the bracket was too small to insert the rod. Aha !! I am guessing that the hit and miss pushrod is turned down on the governor end to provide a "shoulder" for the latch-out lever to hold the pushrod when the governor is in the "miss" mode.

Okay, fine...I fabricated a workable pushrod and then began to look into mounting the mag only to belatedly realize that the hit and miss governor bracket is not machined and drilled to mount any magneto. I didn't want to drill any more non-original holes, either. A little thinking has led me to the idea of mounting up a very sweet early Robert Bosch oscillating magneto by making a custom mount that won't require any more machining, drilling, or tapping into the bracket. I made a test mounting but it needs some changes.

As I was switching the gears around on the bracket, I found that the hit and miss cam/shaft that has the ignition timing detent locates the timing gear with a woodruff key, whereas the throttler gear was located just using a drilled and tapped set-screw into end of the shaft, part in the gear and part in the shaft. This means that I won't be able to easily use the cam with the detent, but it isn't in my plans anyway.

Of course, I am too busy trying to make a buck to work on this engine straight through to "completion" but it is handy for the moment. I will try to post some photos as soon as I can that will illustrate what I have learned about the ZA hit and miss governor.

In the meantime, I keep my eyes open for a 3 hp ZA hit/miss mixer and if I find two, I'll give David a call.
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Old 05-14-2005, 05:46:41 PM
DanR
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Thumbs up Re: 3hp Fairbanks Z HIT AND MISS!!!!

I guess I didn't know that the FM 3HP was not a common engine. I have just finished one, my first, and know where some others are. I have loked at some other ones and none are like the one I have. By the s/n it is 1916. I'll be glad to share what I know about this engine and do have pictures if it will help. Regards, DanR
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