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FBM 3hp question?


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  #1  
Old 05-26-2005, 03:45:06 AM
Jeff Taylor Jeff Taylor is offline
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Default FBM 3hp question?

I was just woundering if anyone could tell me what kind of mag would be on a 1927 FBM 3hp Z? Would it have had an AB33 or a R mag? And why did fairbanks offer streight or angle cut gears?
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:48:01 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

It most likely would have an "R", BUT a type "J" is a direct replacement...Either one will work...As to the gear teeth, I have never figured that out...Seems that just whatever they had the most of that particular day, they put on the engines ...I have two with real close serial numbers and both have different cut gears...It sure seems to be a random thing....Maybe someone out there can tell us more. Wendell's "FM 100 years" book doesn't shed much light on that, and I would REALLY like to know!

David M.
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:51:26 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: FBM 3hp question?

Angle cut gears are more expensive than straight cut. Angle gears tend to have less lash than straight cut (back and forth movement). Angle cut gears run more quiet than straight cut. Angle cut gears tend to wear longer than straight cut. Straight cut gears are: NOISY, HAVE GREATER LASH, but ARE EASIER TO MACHINE, and did I mention CHEAP!!! That is why FM went to straight cut gears. It was strictly a money saving issue, to produce a competitivly priced engine, and cut production costs. Some of the last angle cut gears were mixed in the production line as the old stock was used up.
Andrew
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:30:58 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mackey
Some of the last angle cut gears were mixed in the production line as the old stock was used up.
Andrew
Says who ?
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Old 05-27-2005, 08:16:34 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Yeah, Andrew....Where did you get that information from?...I can't find any reference to the angle cut gear usage by FM...Been lookin' for a while, but all I get is supposition or hearsay...I would like to find something in print about it just to satisfy my curiosity.

David M.
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:27:40 AM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

This is interesting. Seems like I read that somewhere?(may have been told) but cant find it now. Ed maybe able to answer this. I was working on a 1925 dishpan a while back and Hit&miss wanted to know what style gears it had.David what HP. and yrs. are your engines.My 1916 6hp. has straight cut gears.Let see how many FM. have angle cut gears and the yrs of them.BobRR
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Old 05-27-2005, 01:01:11 PM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

here is MY list: 334208, 1918, straight cut;...366627, 1919, straight cut;...548252, 1923, angle cut;...624602, 1925, angle cut;..627410, 1925, straight cut;... 662014, 1926, angle cut;...712053, 1928, straight cut;.. I have a friend with a 1928 three horse with angle cut;..I have several pieces of governors and cam gears that are angle cut but I have no idea what year they are off of. So during in the twenties, they made some one way and some another. the question I ask is why? Was it a special order thing? or was it really just random.

David M.
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Old 05-27-2005, 01:12:28 PM
Larry Larry is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

greenHi Dan...My'27 is Straight Teeth also, and FMJ Mag.. Larry
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Old 05-27-2005, 03:24:58 PM
David Greenwalt David Greenwalt is offline
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Jeff, I don't know if they offered it for the 3 horse, but if they did and you can get it, the Type R impulse mag is the only way to go. Makes it a whole lot easier to start. On my 6 horse you just gotta roll it up on compression, and a little push past that and she's off and running. Easiest starting engine I've ever owned. David.
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Old 05-27-2005, 04:39:51 PM
David Greenwalt David Greenwalt is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Howdy Bob, my 2hp and 6hp Z's are both 1925's and they both have straight gears. The 2hp has a Type R mag, and the 6hp has Type R impulse mag. David.
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:58:12 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

I sure wish there was a implulse on my 1916 and on my ZC52!!!!!!!!That 52 is the biggest pain to get started not that the 6hp is easy.(I usally cheat and belt it to a tractor )BobRR
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Old 05-30-2005, 01:34:04 AM
Jeff Taylor Jeff Taylor is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Well thanks for the info guys it really helps.The mag question was just too see if an R mag or an AB33 was right for my 1927 3hp. I have a spare R mag (no gear) from a 3hpZC it has no impuls can I still use it ,and can I put an impuls on it or not? My other question about the gears was just somthing that I have been woundering for a wile. Here is my list, 1923 1-1/2hp light plant has angle cut, 1927 3hp has streight cut, and my grandfather has a 1925 hit-n-miss 3hp with angle cut gears. Thanks again.
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Old 05-30-2005, 08:11:20 AM
Jason Jason is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

The engines with the angle cut gears were battery & coil engines or had a Bosch AB-33/Ab-44 mags. The engines with straight gears had the Type R, RV, and J mags. I have not seen a FBM mag with an angle cut gear on it yet. I'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong on the Factory angle cut gear.
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Old 05-30-2005, 09:02:06 AM
Larry Larry is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
The engines with the angle cut gears were battery & coil engines or had a Bosch AB-33/Ab-44 mags. The engines with straight gears had the Type R, RV, and J mags. I have not seen a FBM mag with an angle cut gear on it yet. I'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong on the Factory angle cut gear.
This DOES Seem right,As All Mine hold True to this...Angle versus Straight Cut Teeth.. Larry
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Old 05-30-2005, 03:17:32 PM
BobRR BobRR is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
The engines with the angle cut gears were battery & coil engines or had a Bosch AB-33/Ab-44 mags. The engines with straight gears had the Type R, RV, and J mags. I have not seen a FBM mag with an angle cut gear on it yet. I'm still waiting for someone to prove me wrong on the Factory angle cut gear.
This maybe true but it still seems hit&miss as to when they used the angle cut gears I have had 2 1925 dishpans Battery&coil engines with straight cut gears.So far looks like all the angle cut gears seem to be in the mid 20's?BobRR
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Old 05-31-2005, 08:28:15 AM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

I think that Jason has it right...Early on, engines with AB33 mags had angle cut gears, then later, generator engines that fired from a coil used angle cut gears and used a dimple on the cam to trigger ignition...Here is a photo of a 1 1/2 with direct connected compressor with a changeover kit from the AB33 to a type "J" mag...It has an angle cut gear on the mag, but it also has an idler gear that connects it to the cam gear...It was used when FM gave up on the Bosch mags, and offered this conversion kits as a replacement...SO I guess part of this mystery is solved...If the engine used a type "J" or "R" or "RV" mag, they had straight teeth for sure. BUT If they were not magneto fired, you could find them either way.

David M.
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Old 05-31-2005, 12:10:42 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M. Lyon
I think that Jason has it right...Early on, engines with AB33 mags had angle cut gears, then later, generator engines that fired from a coil used angle cut gears and used a dimple on the cam to trigger ignition...Here is a photo of a 1 1/2 with direct connected compressor with a changeover kit from the AB33 to a type "J" mag...It has an angle cut gear on the mag, but it also has an idler gear that connects it to the cam gear...It was used when FM gave up on the Bosch mags, and offered this conversion kits as a replacement...SO I guess part of this mystery is solved...If the engine used a type "J" or "R" or "RV" mag, they had straight teeth for sure. BUT If they were not magneto fired, you could find them either way.

David M.
While some info in this thread MAY be correct, other info is likely not correct from my experience and information. Nothing is resolved, as I read it, and a lot of guessing is going on.

One of my 1920 3 hp ZA's has a cast iron governor bracket and straight cut gears. It appears that it could be the original magneto bracket, but who know's. My other 1920 3 hp ZA arrived to my shed with a pot-metal magneto bracket and straight cut gears, but I suspected, long before this thread, that the bracket was NOT original, though the straight cut gears were probably what the engine was built with. Both of these engines would be classified as early ZA's was they are in the first year or two of production of the ZA with Bosch AB-33 magnetos.

What I'm reading here so far seems to indicate that nobody has yet found a hit and miss ZA with straight gears that is factory. (I have made on with this combination!) LOL Maybe I should rivet on a custom brass plate to this effect. HAHAHA

Supposition and guess work is great to propose ideas but shouldn't be labeled as factual or conclusive. In this case, I think that saying that the early Bosch ZA's had angle cut gears is probably just plain wrong. Photos in Wendel's F-Morse book back me up on this, but even Wendel made mistakes, too.
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:27:44 PM
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Go back and read post #13... What Jason said was that if an engine had a FM rotary mag, then it had to have straight cut teeth...I have several FM hit & Miss battery and coil engines with straight cuts, but like Jason states, Havn't seen ANY engines with a rotary mag and angle cut gears!...Not trying to chisel anything in stone here, This is just a discussion and everyone can form there OWN opinion!

David M.
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:03:19 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Oh yeah, I read post 13. Makes me wonder if having ANY magneto was related to choice of gear teeth. Are there engines with angle cut gears that have an AB-33 magneto that came that way from the factory?

I "know" some of these highly competitive engine builders must have been quite cost conscious, but these gears were probably very inexpensive back in those days. Angle or straight- an outfit like F-Morse, either making or buying the gears in great volume, the cost difference would be pretty small. This suggests a performance issue to me.

For example, the 3 hp ZA hit and miss cam detent is pretty darn small. Could straight cut gears be too rough and rattle around so much as to make the ignition timer unreliable?? Maybe angle gears were a neccessity.

Did any of the factory made ZA hit and miss engines have straight cut gears? I wonder if something about the ignition timer and that stuff made angle cut gears a better choice.

Mostly I just like to see and hear the darn things run! You bet I'm speculating too but, hey, we might just figure this out!

What do YOU think???
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Old 05-31-2005, 06:20:32 PM
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David M. Lyon David M. Lyon is offline
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Default Re: FBM 3hp question?

Another thing I have noticed is that the engines that were put to the most severe use seem to be the ones with angle cut gears...Such as generators, compressors,and the like. So maybe durabillity WAS an issue...I really don't think it was cost, it might have been 2 cents difference back then, if any!...Someone mentioned that the gears ran quiter, but I don't think so..I can't tell any difference....If we keep throwin' ideas in here, we JUST MIGHT figure this out.

David m.
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