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Antique Gas Engine Discussion

IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression


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  #1  
Old 05-29-2005, 11:46:20 PM
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Default IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

My IHC M 1 1/2 hp only seems to have compression when it wants it. I've got it back together (after all winter) to the point where I should be able to try to start it. The other day it didn't have hardly any compression, and after fiddling around, making sure the valves were closing all the way, and finding no problem, I believe It magically developed compression after spining the engine backwards for a while. Now today, when I'm getting anxious to start it, it doesn't have enough compression to run.... that is, there's no rebound in the flywheel on compression stroke....... the flywheel just kind of stops on compression... doesn't bounce back. I even unhooked the exhaust rocker to see if I possible got the exhaust out of time, but the compresssion wasn't any better......even without the exhaust valve opening. (I had made a new shaft for the cam gear, and am hoping that the shaft and gear are oriented correctly.) I ended up reusing the original cylinder, even though it was worn more than I would have liked, but the head has new valve seats, valve guide inserts, and valves. If the engine ran 20 or 30 years ago, and gave out from lack of compression, you'd thunk that with new rings and a rebuilt head, it would have enough compression to run again??? Signed Confused, and Perplexed! Any ideas? thanks!
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Old 05-30-2005, 12:32:29 AM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Strange Tom, how was the cylinder did you unglaze it? Do you have the right rings and did you check them before in the cylinder for passing and cap clearance? How is the compression when pouring oil through the oil pipe? Listen in the handhole for sissing noises. Is your breather good working to avoid vacuum?
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Old 05-30-2005, 10:12:30 AM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

John,
I honed the cylinder, new rings were checked for end-gap. I squirted about a teaspoon of oil down the oiler hole yesterday to no noticeabe difference.
I don't have a breather yet, so I don't think that's the problem. I will look again this morning. Perhaps the dawn of a new day will shed some light on this problem! Thanks, Tom
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Old 05-30-2005, 10:21:14 AM
DICK STAATS DICK STAATS is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Tom,
Are Your Ring Grooves Worn Out? Compression Might Be Leaking By Under The Rings. Just A Thought Here In The Bitterrrot Of Western Montana.
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Old 05-30-2005, 10:36:22 AM
JKKD JKKD is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

There are only so many places you can be lousing compression. Listen in the hand hole for blow by, listen in the hopper opening for a cracked sleeve, listen by the muffler for a leaky exhaust valve, listen by the choke plate for a leaky intake valve, listen around the head gasket area or spray it with something like Windex and watch for bubbles. Is it an igniter model, if so listen around it for leaks. You said it has new valve guides & seats. Did you lap the valves after you got it back? I've had 3 different places do valve jobs and none of them sealed right until I lapped them in myself. The worst one took an hour of lapping to get it to seal. Also make sure the intake valve moves effortlessly in the new guide. Even if using a new intake spring it doesn't take much resistance for it to stick open. Since you're having an intermittent problem I'm betting on the intake valve sticking open.

Good luck,
Jamie
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Old 05-30-2005, 10:46:36 AM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Tom-
I think that Dick is onto something here.
It seems that when most people fix up an engine:
They almost always replace the rings.
They often clean up the cylinder.
They most times check the end gap on the new rings.
They almost never check the side clearance on the rings.
They are caught up in the mystery of "Why don't I have any compression?"
If the engine and cylinder has appreciable wear then it is a safe assumption that the piston has wear on it too since the piston is what was in the cylinder wearing it out for all of those years. Check the side clearance if you want compression again. Most times this is where the problem lies. One to Five thousandths of side clearance you can live with. Six or more means a trip to the lathe. The top groove always wears the most. See the detailed information at: http://www.dol.net/~dave.reed/tips.htm . Contact me if you have any questions.
Now I am off for the small show at Bob Lefever's place. Time to look at some real iron.
Thank you,
Dave Reed
Otto Gas Engine Works
2167 Blue Ball Road
Elkton MD 21921-3330
phone 410-398-7340 http://www.pistonrings.net
http://www.pistonring.net
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Old 05-30-2005, 02:39:01 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Thanks once again for all the suggestions. I only eyed up the side clearance of the piston rings... they didn't seem too bad. Now I wished I used a feeler gauge. I didn't think to lap the valve to check their seating. Didn't think I'd have to after having new valves, seats, and guides put in by an engine rebuilder. Now I wish I did that as well. Really wished I would have found a better cylider sleeve. Thought I bought one, but turned out to be for an ignitor fired engine.. and of course, mine is the larger bore, spark plug engine.
My engine definitely worked for a living... everything was worn out, and there was a noticeable ridge in the cylinder, as well as pitting in the bottom side. I squirted a bunch of oil in the spark plug hole this morning.... that did make a difference...I did have "rebounding" compression... for a while. I tried some yesterday down the oiler hole, but imagine that mostly washed out the back side of the cylinder. I did get it to fire twice...... out of many spins of the flywheel..... compression went down hill, my wico quit sparking again, and I got tired of looking at it. It's now off the work bench, heading for a corner of the garage, so I can work on my 64 Chevy Pickup, and gather up a better cylinder sleeve, and check out the piston better. Thanks! Tom
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Old 05-30-2005, 02:56:13 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Tom We have 2 1 1/2 M's that are low on comp. but run good and start easily( helps with low comp. )I dont they would like going back to work but for show are just fine. On both, the cyl. are worn out of round. Sounds like your mag maybe your big problem since it sounds like it is firing when it wants to! Have you tried cleaning the points?then setting timing(valve and ign.) by the manual? BobRR
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Old 05-30-2005, 07:26:11 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

It sounds a lot like the simple fact that a piece of carbon may be on a valve seat or on the head of the one of the valves. Why do I think this may be the trouble? compression just don't come and go as you said yours doe's One small piece of carbon holds a valve open enough to allow all the compressioin to excape. Just though about something that I have seen happen many times in 23 years of working on this old iron. I hope this will help a little. Joe Morris
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:53:48 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Joe, the head was newly rebuilt, and it hasn't run yet, but I think I will take it back off and check the valves, as I never thought to check the new valves and seats for seating with lapping compound. I do want to find a better cylinder sleeve though. They look too thin to be re-sleeved. Has anyone had that done on on IHC M 1 1/2 hp?
thanks
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Old 05-31-2005, 06:17:17 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Are you trying to start this engine or just worried about the comp.not being enough to try?? If you got better comp. with oil thats the rings not sealing not the valves even though wouldnt hurt to lap them but not your problem.Good luck finding a sleeve if ya find more then one let me know BobRR
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Old 06-01-2005, 09:40:15 AM
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Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
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Exclamation Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

The easiest way to check the valves is to turn it over compression while listening at the intake and at the exhaust. If you hear -any- leakage, you need to take another look at the valves.

Do the same thing at the hopper. This can tell you if you have a bad head gasket joint or a crack somewhere.

Good luck!

Take care - Elden
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:19:50 PM
Randy L Peterson Randy L Peterson is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

If you have another engine I would belt it up and see if it will start..What part of Minnesota are you from.. I live in Flandreau SD about 15 miles from Pipestone MN... Good luck hope you get it running..
Havin a blast preservin the past
Randy L Peterson
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:18:22 PM
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Randy, I live in North Central Minnesota... the land of 10 trillion misquitos. I haven't touched the engine in two days.... had to get away from it for a while and get back to work on my rusty Cheverolet. I was trying to start the engine, and did get it to fire a couple of times, but noticed toward the end, that it was lacking spark.... and then not much compression after the oil I sqirted in finally worked it's way out the exhaust. First it's back to Wico EK 101, before I try again.
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Old 06-01-2005, 11:04:50 PM
Randy L Peterson Randy L Peterson is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Well I have confidence you will get it going.. Some good spark should help... Sometimes they wont give up right away but it will give up being stuborn and run..LOL Been there a few times...
GOOD LUCK
Havin a blast preservin the past
Randy L Peterson
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:19:14 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Default Re: IHC M 1 1/2 hp compression

Tom,

I think if you get the Mag fixed and put some oil into the cylinder to get it running it will fix it's self.

I have restored to running about 30 similar size engines of various makes and many of them had poor compression when I first put them together but after running for a time the rings seated and they started running better each time I started them.

If you get it started and running steady try running it under load for about 15 seconds then let it loaf for 45 seconds then repeat the process untill the engine gets hot. This seems to force the rings to seat faster.

I use an old piece of oilrag towel on the flywheel to put it under load. Be sure to keep your fingers from being intangeled in the rag and be sure that the rag dosn't have strings hanging that will get in the gears or around the crankshaft. The last thing any if us needs to do is to lose any body parts while working on an otherwise pretty safe hobby.

I usually shut the engine off after it gets hot and let it cool down completely.
Then I see if it will start without the extra oil in the cylinder.

One way or the other I repeat the process untill the engine starts and runs normally.

I have only had to sleeve one engine a Fairbanks Morse 1 1/2 hp. The sleeve job cost me more than a good used block would have and I had the hardest time getting it to wear in of any engine I have ever worked on.

I had to belt it up to an electric motor and get it spinning fast to start it the first time. After the under load break in sequince was repeated several times it did run fine.

Dick
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