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Antique Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Antique Gas Engine Discussion

cracked fairbanks


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  #1  
Old 06-24-2005, 07:20:06 PM
Larry Harding Larry Harding is offline
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Default cracked fairbanks

i am trying to revive a late (47) fairbanks z for someone. this is the type with enclosed crankcase, impulse mag, and no botton drain in the water hopper. there is a bad break at the rear of the water jacket under the cylinder that dumps the water right into the crankcase. it has been welded before and cracked again. i am thinking of useing something like labmetal or j b weld to fill up the break from inside the water jacket. i don't think i can weld it good enough to hold. if this were my engine it would become a mailbox stand or better yet a boat anchor, but the owner wants it running at any cost. suggestions appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2005, 10:04:42 PM
Kevin O. Pulver Kevin O. Pulver is offline
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Default Re: creacked fairbanks

Larry, if the cast welding on this application is beyond your scope of expertise, I recommend that you ask around and find the best cast welder in your area and get them to do it. On that note, you might find some information if you do a web search for Henrob or Cobra torches. Call them and ask if someone in your area who owns a welding shop has bought one. Then call them and ask them about welding cast.
I have one of their special torches and they do a wonderful job of welding cast iron. Of course there is a lot of technique involved also, but there are guys out there that can seemingly weld anything. That seems to me the only solution you have. Let us know how it turns out. Kevin
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Old 06-25-2005, 02:10:36 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Smile Re: creacked fairbanks

Larry, JB Weld makes several products and they can be used in tandum.

You might consider using either the standard or the quick set for the structural cold weld then use the water weld over the top of the cold weld to insure that it will be water tight.

You also could just use the water weld alone I have had great sucess with JB Weld products.

There is a great Website with testimonials that is of course sponsered by JB Weld but some times if you don't blow your own horn no one else is going to blow it for you.

Anyway I always blow their horn because if you use their products as directed on the materials that they suggest using them on and if you use common sense they will serve you very well.

They work best for sealing and for compression strength but if keyed in they will work reasonably well in tinsel and can be reinforced by tapping and screwing in threaded stock.

In your case it sounds like all you have to do is patch and seal and in that regard I think if the area is properly cleaned prior to application of their cold weld you should be successful in providing a permanent solution to the problem.

More Free Advise.
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Old 06-25-2005, 09:40:59 AM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: creacked fairbanks

Is your engine full sized (ZC), or of the 'salt block' style (ZA)? There are problems with the area that has broken. First the area is oil soaked - the cast iron has probably been saturated with oil. This will make it difficult to weld effectively, because of the contamination. You might have a hard time getting JB Weld to stick effectively for the same reason, 2nd, the area is subject to thermal expansion differentials - the cylender is hot, the water jacket is comparatively warm, and the block (the rest of the engine) is cold. Another possibility, is that it was a good weld, and the engine was allowed to freeze a second (or more time). When ice forms in the F-M Z type engines, it freezes where it is thinnest first. It is at this point that it provides the most pressure against the cast iron, therefore the cast splits. If the slpit is more than 1/8" wide, it may take several attempts with JB Weld to seal the hole. Also, there is the possibility, that due to rust in the hole, that the crack is spreading. That will be tough to stop as well.
Andrew
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:06:12 AM
Dick Welty Dick Welty is offline
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Smile Re: creacked fairbanks

If someone could see the break to weld it then you should be able to get a small air grinder in there to grind down to fresh metal. You also could possibly drill some small holes into the surrounding metal to lock in your weld.

Break or cut off an appropriate amount of the stick and knead it for the prescribed time and push it into the cleaned out hole and and the cleaned off surrounding area. Then let it set.

Waterweld is good up to 300 degrees F, has a compression strength of 12,000 PSI and a tensile strength of 6,000 PSI.

See www.jbweld.co.uk/files/prodb.html

And see Features and Benefits.

More free advise.

Last edited by Dick Welty; 06-25-2005 at 11:35:00 AM.
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Old 06-25-2005, 06:10:17 PM
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ssimntih ssimntih is offline
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Default Re: creacked fairbanks

You might also check into thermal spray. One of the machine shops around here doesn't weld cast anymore, they spray it. I certainly wouldn't use it for a yard ornament if it can still run, they are many solutions to that problem. If nothing else, you might try to braze it, since cast is somewhat porous, brazing seems to work pretty well and since its not gonna be really hot, it is an option. Good luck,
Justin
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:24:36 PM
BobRR BobRR is online now
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Default Re: creacked fairbanks

To stop the cracks you want to drill a small hole at each end. BobRR
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Old 06-26-2005, 08:12:27 AM
Larry Harding Larry Harding is offline
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Default Re: creacked fairbanks

the engine is a 6/7 hp z c. it has a sealed crankcase and splash lubrication for the timkin main bearings. the crankcase tunnels some 4" back under the water jacket. the difficulty with welding it is not so much ability as accessability. at the corner just below the bore the crack is 1/8" or more, so i know there is damage up in the tunnel area. this is why iam considering using something inside the water jacket to fill the rear part of the jacket and hopfully seal all the damage. i don't think loosing a little of the cooling in this area will hurt for show running. the thing is it would take several packs of j b to do it. i am wondering if there is some product that comes in more bulk that might work. i have steam cleaned the block so i don/t think oil will be a problem in adherance.
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Old 06-26-2005, 09:36:45 AM
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Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
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Exclamation Re: creacked fairbanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Harding
i am wondering if there is some product that comes in more bulk that might work. i have steam cleaned the block so i don/t think oil will be a problem in adherance.
Larry:

Steam cleaning will get most of the oil off the iron but, before using epoxy, thoroughly clean the bonding area again using something like lacquer thinner. Keep cleaning 'til you get no more "color" on the rag, q-tip, etc.

Now, just before you apply the epoxy, take a propane torch and go over the bonding area. Get it hot enough to evaporate any moisture so the epoxy will stick.

Look around industrial supply houses for products by either Devcon or Belzona. Get the iron-filled type. I know that Devcon has some that is putty-like and may work best in your area. Make sure to trowel it firmly onto the parent metal to gat a good bond.

Hope this helps!

Take care - Elden
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  #10  
Old 06-26-2005, 09:39:28 AM
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oldironcollector oldironcollector is offline
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Default Re: creacked fairbanks

Larry,

I have had good sucess with a product called Devcon, comes in a liquid form and it is also available in an almost putty consistancy. It is a lot like JB weld but it is an industrial grade epoxy. It is available in bulk but can get pricey. I buy mine from a company called Enco. They have a website I believe it is useenco.com


Denny
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  #11  
Old 06-26-2005, 09:41:32 AM
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oldironcollector oldironcollector is offline
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Default Re: creacked fairbanks

Man, I was sitting here typing my post and before I could click the post reply button BAM!!! and it looks like Elden beat me to the punch !

Denny
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Old 06-26-2005, 11:12:36 AM
David Greenwalt David Greenwalt is offline
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Default Re: cracked fairbanks

Hi Larry, if as bad as you say my opinion would be to strip off everything else and replace the block. There is an oilfield company in Logan, Ohio that has a yard full of those engines. I don't have the info of the company here with me, but if you would like to go that route, let me know and I can get it. Check with some of Harry's sponsors first, though, and if they don't have one send me an e-mail. David.
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Old 06-26-2005, 11:58:28 AM
BobRR BobRR is online now
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Default Re: cracked fairbanks

Sounds Like David has a good idea if you still rather fix it there is also a product called lab metal comes in a pint can no mixing required.Using their thinner it can be thinned to any cosistancy.Can be bought at a welding shop.BobRR
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