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Antique Gas Engine Discussion

Webster mag trip angle


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  #1  
Old 07-12-2005, 03:48:47 AM
Roo Roo is offline
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Question Webster mag trip angle

Hi everyone,
Im going to use some of my own termanology here so please bear with me.

I was just wondering at what angle should the face of the trip arm actually engage or hit the webster L shaped trip to make it flick more or less the point of first contact before it travels through the path to make the spark

For example should the face of the trip arm hit the webster flush (total suface makes contact evenly) or at some what of a point (part of the surface makes contact)

This is my first ignitor engine and I honestly have no idea how this is set up or if infact it has any after effects?

Thanks so much,
Roo
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Old 07-12-2005, 05:01:31 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: Webster mag trip angle

Before engagement, the trip should just touch the igniter. The igniter points should be closed. The mag should wind up appeoximately 45 degrees before latching off. As the mag latches off, it should trip open the igniter just as the mag is at even with it's resting position - dead even across, as I see it. Make sure that the springs are both of equal tension, and that the spring mount rollers are free and turn easily on the mounting posts. An inequal spring tension or bent post will cause the mag to bind, and will cause increased wear and weak spark.
Andrew
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Old 07-12-2005, 06:41:10 PM
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

Hi Andrew,
thanks so very much for your great reply there are some really great tips there!!!

I dont think im on the same page as you yet!

Forget the ignitor for a moment on the engine a push rod is on an ecentric which moves up and down in sync with the cycle of the engine to create the trip of the webster. It is this face of this push rod which strikes the "push finger" which is the L shaped bit of metal keyed to the shaft on the Webster.

My question is at what face angle should the push rod that trips the push finger of the webster be at when they first engage or touch? Does it mater? or is it what ever gives the 45 degees movement during the strike as you mentioned?

Thanks so much for your paitence and help,
Roo
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Old 07-12-2005, 06:57:27 PM
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Jebaroni Jebaroni is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

I'm no mag expert by any means but there are a few things that are universal. First, in this case, the webster mags internal components must rotate 45 degrees prior to springing back in order to generate enough "juice" for the ignitor to spark. So long as the mag rotates enough and the magnets are strong and the coils are not shorted, the mag should work. As Andrew said, the rocker arm that is attached to the websters shaft should hit the ignitor causing it to open right when the webster has reached "dead center" or it's normal stationary position. If you've got those two, then the mag and ignitor are timed to each other properly.

Moving on to the latch-off lever (the arm that trips the mag), it can be adjusted so as to be longer or shorter. Doing this is basically what adjusts the engine's timing. Generally, a longer rod = advanced timing and a shorter rod = retarded timing. Depending on how fast you want your engine to run and how much power it is currently putting out, you would adjust this length to get the best performance. Hope this helps and that I haven't said anything incorrectly!

Jeb (still learning about ignitor engines myself)
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Old 07-12-2005, 07:22:10 PM
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

Hi Jeb,
Mate I agree with you 100% and what makes it even better Im a similar age to you so I know we are speaking the same language here!

BUT is there a specific angle (as in degrees) of which the "face" of the (what you call) latch off lever initially touchs or engages the push finger of Webster??? assuming the push finger is at 90 degrees or dead centre???

Does this make sense?

Thanks so much, Roo
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Old 07-12-2005, 09:11:01 PM
Chip Watford Chip Watford is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

Roo,I believe I know what you are asking.The face of the trip rod is a flat 90 degrees.The latch-off is adjusted by the movable ramp. Chip
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Old 07-12-2005, 09:22:40 PM
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

Hi Chip,
Yes that is correct so therefore does the trip rod with the 90 degree flat face hit the "push finger" at 90 degrees when the ramp is set to give the 45 degree "throw" movement?

And what are the effects of the face of the trip rod having say 120 or 75 degree angle when hiting the push finger??? which is best???

Kind regards,
Roo
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Old 07-12-2005, 10:49:18 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

It might help a tiny bit if you could tell us all what type of Webster magneto you have, if possible, and what engine you're working with. That said, here is one way to adjust many of the old style M, MM, K, and L Websters and maybe others too.

The magneto has a keyed on piece called a push finger. It is wound up against springs by a push rod. The push rod is generally attached with a hinge pin to the valve rod clamp which is attached to the exhaust rod.

When the exhaust rod actuates, the push rod moves over the push rod roller, engages the push finger and winds up the magneto until the push rod wedge ramps up the roller, causing the push rod to rise and become disengaged from the push finger.

When the push rod disengages from the push finger, the magneto springs cause the magneto to "unwind" rapidly where upon the back side of the push finger strikes the electrode arm screw with a whack, causing the ignitor points to open. If all this happens correctly and your magneto is "hot" and your ignitor functional, voila, a spark ensues!

Now, the electrode arm screw is screwed into the moveable electrode arm and held in adjustment by a lock nut. This adjustment is made with the magneto "at rest" or in the "neutral position" and the ignitor points held closed. Then, the electrode arm screw should be screwed in until it just barely contacts the push finger and then tighten the locknut.

Now to time the magneto, et al. Rotate the engine into firing position. What is your firing position supposed to be?? Consult your engine literature, which can be obtained, in many cases, from a sponsor. Doc Schuster, who I liberated all of this info from, says it is generally 8 degrees for every 100 r.p.m. of engine speed. Note also that this timing instruction requires that the adjustments be made with the advance lever in the full advance or "run" position. Some engines, like the 1-1-1/2 hp Alamos don't have an advance mechanism so the timing cannot be retarded to start.


Before adjusting the exhaust rod clamp and the wedge, make sure that the push rod slides freely, centered within the roller groove without binding. If needed, shim it to make it thus. Preferably using a starting lever (that you can buy from one of Harry's sponsors), cock the magneto into the 40 degree position from horizontal.

Slide the wedge clear back towards the push rod "hinge so it is out of the way. Loosen the valve rod clamp and slide the valve rod clamp forward on the valve rod until the tip of the push rod is about 3/16" short of the magneto inductor shaft centerline. Tighten the valve rod clamp bolt(s).

Then slide the wedge until it is just into the roller (the push rod will be laying on top of the push finger). Tighten the wedge lock screw. Chalk mark the flywheel rim in-line with the exhaust rod for a temporary reference.

Check timing by turning engine backwards until the push rod drops into the roller and a bit more. Then begin to turn the engine in normal rotation, very slowly. If timed correctly, the magneto will wind up to 40 degrees beyond neutral and the trip finger will trip just as the chalk mark lines up with the exhaust rod.


If you do not have a starting lever, get one. It will make this all much easier. If you don't have a starting lever and all the stuff it needs to work, you'll have to just go by trial and error until you get the correct results, but no matter what, watch out when you first try to start and don't get clobbered and hurt by an improperly timed engine !!! Or one that is timed correctly !!

You originally asked about some kind of angles to various parts. I couldn't figure out what the heck you were asking, exactly. Most all of the angles are inherent in the design, in particular, of the wedge. Are you missing the wedge??

Also, not all push fingers are the same. They vary in size, shape and length and there are left and right push fingers. You can't neccessarily interchange these things and have it all work. There are left and right magnetos, too. Plus, the magneto inductor must be installed correctly. It is possible in many circumstances to re-orient a left hand magneto into a right hand magneto but the push finger will likely be all bass-ackwards. I've been down these roads before. Luckily, I had the push finger I needed. If you end up with an incorrect part or two, you can probably find someone to trade ya'.

This is how one expert says to time a Webster engine. Myself, I bought a bunch of starting levers when they were on sale. I compared Ed's reproduction levers to a perfect original one and they are exact copies. They wind up the magneto inductor shaft to the correct number of degreees so they are a real plus to have for these adjustments. And for bench testing magneto/ignitors, they're unsurpassed, in my opinion.

Watch out for yourself !! Be safe. I know the website owner won't be held liable for any use or misuse of this information, correct or not. Neither will I, but then you can't squeeze blood from a turnip anway. Good luck. I hope this helps. If I have misread or mistyped or got it wrong, somebody please correct this. I expect there are a few short-cuts that others can provide.

Previewing this this missive, it sounds like I am pontificating but please know that I am only trying to pass on some information that I "stole" from others. I have plenty to learn about all of this. Plus, there are variations of the Webster system that this info may not be correct for. If you have a "new style" Webster, these instructions may need some changes. Ditto on a high tension Webster set-up. Etc.]

P.S.-

I gotta blister on my typing finger........
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Old 07-12-2005, 11:09:22 PM
Roo Roo is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

Hi Kid,
Mate that reply is outstand and really showed me the finer points of the object at hand. The Webster is a M type on a Wiscona Pep

Quote:
The magneto has a keyed on piece called a push finger. It is wound up against springs by a push rod. The push rod is generally attached with a hinge pin to the valve rod clamp which is attached to the exhaust rod
.

No problems here ok with the above

Quote:
When the exhaust rod actuates, the push rod moves over the push rod roller, engages the push finger and winds up the magneto until the push rod wedge ramps up the roller, causing the push rod to rise and become disengaged from the push finger.
This is where my question is at! when the
Quote:
push rod moves over the push rod roller, engages the push finger
what is angle of engagement? (ie push rod when it first touches the push finger) does this angle matter? ie 90 degrees (like |) as in dead flat or for example angled away at 125 degrees (like / ) or 75 degrees (like \ )

Quote:
When the push rod disengages from the push finger, the magneto springs cause the magneto to "unwind" rapidly where upon the back side of the push finger strikes the electrode arm screw with a whack, causing the ignitor points to open. If all this happens correctly and your magneto is "hot" and your ignitor functional, voila, a spark ensues!
Your thoughts?
Roo
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Old 07-12-2005, 11:36:34 PM
KidDynamo KidDynamo is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

I hope others can chime in, particularly someone with a Wiscona Pep, because I cannot say, for sure. It seems to me like various engines have various angles. If you have all correct original parts, obviously the angle will be correct, whatever it is.

If you have to improvise, varying distances, lengths and angles will have some minute effect on timing, relative to when the exhaust valve opens, even if you are winding up the correct 40 degrees and tripping the magneto at the correct time. Is this a problem? I don't know.

Wiscona Pep owners, where are you ??? This gentleman needs a little help !!

Most engines I have observed have the push rod angling upward from the exhaust rod, not parallel to it. That relative angle might be an easier one for others to compare rather than the angle relative to the push finger. What number of degrees is a little hard to tell. Look for photos.

I am a huge fan of Harry's archives. Perhaps you might find a photo therein that can adequately answer yoiur question. If memory serves, search not just for Wiscona Pep, but for auction results, ala Steve Barr (??), etc.

At present, I only own 1 Webster fired engine, a 1-1/2 hp Alamo and it is a basket case.
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:35:42 PM
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Mike Monnier Mike Monnier is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

I'll try taking a stab at this one Roo. In most cases, the mag push rod (I call a trip rod) will be angled up from the push rod that actuates the exhaust valve by an angle of roughly 45 degrees depending on manufacturer. I've seen some with very short trip rods that are at a 60 degree angle. As long as you make solid contact to wind the armature sufficiently, I don't think the angle is terribly critical. Hope this helps, Mike.
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:48:35 PM
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Craig A Craig A is offline
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Default Re: Webster mag trip angle

Hey Roo! These things CAN be exasperating to get properly adjusted and timed with BOTH the length of the push rod and the ramp being adjustable.
Don't worry about the angle of engagement. As long as it STAYS engaged until it's supposed to trip off you're OK.
As for the clearance between the armature and the trip finger--THAT adjusment is WIDELY variable. Test it in a vice where you can SEE the spark and adjust it accordingly.
Some will work fine with very little clearance between the armature and trip adjusting screw and others need a LOT of daylight.
On a 15hp IHC here I could throw the adjusting screw away as it is screwed ALL the way out anyway.
EVERY ONE acts differently depending on spring strength, roller wear, MAYBE a slight twist in the armature shaft or whatever other variable there is....
BUT--once properly setup they are terrific mags!
Craig
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