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Antique Gas Engine Discussion Meet collectors of hit and miss engines, ask questions about collecting, restoring and showing antique flywheel engines.

Antique Gas Engine Discussion

MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent


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  #1  
Old 07-25-2005, 02:57:21 PM
ARathbun87 ARathbun87 is offline
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Question MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

A friend of mine and I are in the midst of trying to get all three of his MDIHC stationary engines running for a show this weekend in foster, rhode island.... The 1-1\2 hp fired right up, as well as the 6 hp, but we ran into a problem with the 3 hp... The fuel pump insn't pushing the fuel any further than 1/2 an inch above the fuel level....

Does anyone have any ideas on where to find a new fuel pump or more prefferibly a rebuid kit in a hurry, so that we can have all three running on saturday?

Next off.... Any instructions/tips on fuel pump removal?


Any help would be greatly apreciated,
Thanks in advance,
Aaron
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:37:02 PM
ARathbun87 ARathbun87 is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

I'm sorry.... I failed to mention that they all are model "m" engines...
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:56:17 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

From the way you describe the problem the trouble is with the check balls in the pump. The pump should be easy to remove since it is held on by one bolt that protrudes from the block. Remove the nut and both lines from the pump and it should be easy to remove. Be sure that the line is open from the tank to the pump. Has this engine been running on the pump prior to this start up? Also be sure that the packing around the plunger is good. If not, repack it useing some cotton mop string drawn through some soft hand soap. Soap and string works better than graphite packing because it is not effected by gas . It it probably the lower check ball in the pump that is not holding and each time the plunger goes down it just pushes the gas back toward the tank. I hope this helps a little. Let us know what cures the problem. Joe Morris
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:00:30 PM
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Look at the picture, I think your decharge valve doesn't work that good, or the plunger is wore out. Mayby the balls are not round anymore.

Done all these repairs it has to work.
For new ones, Harry's sponsors "Hit 'n Miss & Starbolt sells them".
http://www.oldengine.org/members/hammink/pumpparts.jpg
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Old 07-25-2005, 06:07:30 PM
ARathbun87 ARathbun87 is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Thanks all... I will try that tomorrow....

Doesnt seem all that hard now....(kinda does after turning that crank for about 2 hours)

Lol...

Actually the engine has not "run" since i found it... It has run quite well with the primer hole filled... but chugged out soon afterwards.... we never thought to check the fuel pump until after we decided to call it a day and pack everything up....

The motor is in excellant, unrestored condition...

I personnaly found the engine in a junk yard way off in the back jury-rigged to an old model a frame along with the original hand crank, plenty of original tools, a leather flat belt, a flywheeled saw arbor and the support bushings for the arbor, still on the original wood skid... and much to our surprise, the water hopper had not been cracked, nor did it leak...The guy "shot high" stating he could get $70 for scrap(a bunch of b/s because cast scap isnt all that high) and said he wanted $90 .... He wondered why i said "sold" so quickly.. lol


We got the engine to his garage and poured a little gas into the cylinder, cranked it over, and it fired off a few times....Music to our ears....

Since that day we've replaced the rotted rubber and plastic fuel lines(a poor attempt of a fix) with copper lines, bought a new spark plug, plug wire, oiler and a gas tank....

Hopefully with this info we will have them all running for Saturday....
I will keep you all posted..
Thanks again,
~Aaron
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:19:45 PM
ARathbun87 ARathbun87 is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Thanks for the info everyone.... I got it running today....

after pulling off quite a bit of things, i couldnt get the pump body off because i really didnt want to remove the flywheel... So i pulled ou the plunger and filled it with carb cleaner...took out the spring for the carb side check ball and let it all soak for a while.... Pulled the packing off the plunger and soaked it in heavy oil and wrapped it tight on the plunger *though it didnt look too packed....

Put everything back together and filled the primer cup and it fired then chugged out again... Discouraged i thought maybe the packing wasnt fully set and by running it more it may seat itself....

Filled the primer cup again... it fired over... and continued to run!!!!!

I let it run for 2 full minutes and shut it down because i'm not sure how to adjust the fuel perfectly and the water correctly...(its got three knobs on the carb... gas, water and kerosene.)

Now all that needs to be do is check the gib key on the 6 horse as the flywheel started to walk last time it ran....

Thanks again to everyone for all the help...
~Aaron
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:20:50 PM
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Aaron, it isn't necessary to pull the flywheel off to get the fuelpump. Don't worry about the water valve, you don't need it. To ad a little water is only for engines that run for heavy work. When the engine got hot to prevent the knocking of the rod-crank etc, kerosene vapors to quickly then and you get a sorta pre-ignition.
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:27:35 PM
BobRR BobRR is online now
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Couple of things. You dont need to remove the flywheel, just pull the stud that holds the fuel pump.Unless your working the engine and running kero you dont need to add water to the fuel.If your just showing the engine just run gas.I didnt know there is supposed to be a spring on any of the check balls?If you have time before you leave I would let it run for 30min. or so to make sure everything is working properly that way when ya get to the show and it doesnt start you know it is the crowd factor! BobRR
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:52:04 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

On some, not all "M" fuel pumps there is a very small rather fine wire spring that is in the outlet side of the pump that helps to keep the ball seated good. Most of them that I have seen have been in the older, cast iron body pumps.Joe Morris
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:12:46 PM
ARathbun87 ARathbun87 is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Oh ok.. was rather unsure if you needed the water or not....

Its weird tho... The little ... i dunno waht to call it ... the "rocker arm" that pumps the plunger wont come off the stud as the outer portion of the flywheel is in the way... it really seems rather difficult to remove it as that rocker arm and the fuel pump body share the same stud.... I dunno....

Yeah my fuel pump has the fine wire spring in it...

thanks agian for the info...

And let me just ask if there is anything that needs to be changed in my starting routine....


Fill the grease cups(or check them anyhows) lightly oil any exposed contact areas. Fill water hopper. Check gas level. Add some gas to the primer cup. Turn gas knob to almost one full turn from closed. Close the choke and set the ignition retard to "start". Hold in the intake valve, and crank the engine up to speed... remove the crank and release intake valve (most people will ask what the heck about the intake valve, but i do this to save my arms and shoulder from both overworking and to prevent inury in the case something goes wrong)... One fired flip on the oiler, switch to run, back off the choke and turn gas knob towards closed until no black smoke is visible...

Any problems with such?
~Aaron
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Old 07-26-2005, 08:16:58 PM
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Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARathbun87
And let me just ask if there is anything that needs to be changed in my starting routine....


Fill the grease cups(or check them anyhows) lightly oil any exposed contact areas. Fill water hopper. Check gas level. Add some gas to the primer cup. Turn gas knob to almost one full turn from closed. Close the choke and set the ignition retard to "start". Hold in the intake valve, and crank the engine up to speed... remove the crank and release intake valve (most people will ask what the heck about the intake valve, but i do this to save my arms and shoulder from both overworking and to prevent inury in the case something goes wrong)... One fired flip on the oiler, switch to run, back off the choke and turn gas knob towards closed until no black smoke is visible...

Any problems with such?
~Aaron
Aaron:

I think you've got it down pretty well. Holding the intake valve down until you've got the crank disengaged insures that you will have no "Ford Fractures".

Take care - Elden
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:27:33 PM
Joe Morris Joe Morris is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARathbun87
I'm sorry.... I failed to mention that they all are model "m" engines...
If the engine has a Wico magneto on it it is not necessary to put a crank on it. because the mag is as hot turning it over by hand, and if every thing is set right ,turning the engine over by the flywheels is safer than trying to spin it by the dangerous crank. To get the pump off just push the bolt that holds it on into the crankcase a little. Joe Morris
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:51:01 PM
ARathbun87 ARathbun87 is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Thanks for the tidbits guys....

I'll post some pic and maybe some vids of the engines when i get an opportunity to get some...


Thanks again,
~Aaron
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Old 07-30-2005, 09:36:39 PM
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

I have to reach in thru the handhole in the back and pull the bolt back into the crank case to get my fuel pump off and it can get a bit messy in there.
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Old 07-30-2005, 10:14:22 PM
Steve Adams Steve Adams is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Since you guys seem to know the "M's" rather well maybe I could get some guidance with mine. My second engine is a 6HP "M" igniter. (The first one is a 3-5 LA that we totaly rebuilt and runs fabulous) The magneto is missing, and until I find one I would like to run on battery and coil. I don't know how to build or setup one of these systems. Also, since there is not currently a crank handle (soon) are they that easy to start without? I have heard some say they won't use the handle anyway. I have Just read about changing the timing to start it, I understand the benefits but on this engine how would you do this?
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Old 08-03-2005, 02:38:50 AM
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Adams
Since you guys seem to know the "M's" rather well maybe I could get some guidance with mine. My second engine is a 6HP "M" igniter. (The first one is a 3-5 LA that we totaly rebuilt and runs fabulous) The magneto is missing, and until I find one I would like to run on battery and coil. I don't know how to build or setup one of these systems. Also, since there is not currently a crank handle (soon) are they that easy to start without? I have heard some say they won't use the handle anyway. I have Just read about changing the timing to start it, I understand the benefits but on this engine how would you do this?
You could use an old fluorescent ballast coil, ( I always do) and they cost nothing at all you have one in your shed or get them for free at the electric repair shop. In the picture you see how to setup the wires. Take a 12 Volt battery ( best for these ballast coils) connect the + plus lead to the coil and the other goes from the coil to the ignitor. The - minus lead goes to the engine body. To start without a crank would be difficult, cause you loose your power very fast and it depends how well your engine is. A top redone engine could be start at the flywheels, but most don't. To retard the ignition, you could make the ignition trip rod shorter by one turn in, that's enough in most cases. An other way to start the engine without a crank is when someone hold the inlet valve open and the other person spins the flywheels as quick as possible and at the top you close the inlet valve ( it works, but it wearied you out )

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Old 08-09-2005, 10:00:20 AM
Steve Adams Steve Adams is offline
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Default Re: MDIHC 3 H.P. Fuel Pump, Rather Urgent

John, I took a ballast out of an old fixture but it looks nothing like the one in your picture. It's a long black box with lots of wires hanging out.?????????
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