Small, old military generator - help

[Hesperian]

As promised, I've begun work on what appears to be 1940-50's aircraft APU. ID tag is marked: "Generator - Atlas Aircraft Prods., No. 3, Model 8017-A4, 40VDC, KW .350." So far I've cleaned the fuel system from tank to intake valve and will check ignition sytem next. I've not had any luck finding information or other repair resources for the engine. Any ideas, clarifications, suggestions or directions would be a help.

Thanks all,

Steve

[tingmissartoq]

Not sure where you picked up the generator you describe, but I think you were taken. There was never a company named "Atlas Aircraft Prods." I suspect someone threw some odd parts together and attached them to a B&S engine. Might make a good anchor for your boat, but it certainly isn't an authentic military piece. Good luck.

[John Newman, Jr.]

A couple of pictures would be a big help to determine just what you have. I would be hesitant to say never when there have been countless small companies that have come & gone through the years - some making only one or two specialized products under limited run / experimental contracts in the course of a very short business 'life span'. Show us the beast!

[KidDynamo]

Originally Posted by Hesperian

As promised, I've begun work on what appears to be 1940-50's aircraft APU. ID tag is marked: "Generator - Atlas Aircraft Prods., No. 3, Model 8017-A4, 40VDC, KW .350." So far I've cleaned the fuel system from tank to intake valve and will check ignition sytem next. I've not had any luck finding information or other repair resources for the engine. Any ideas, clarifications, suggestions or directions would be a help.

Thanks all,

Steve

I'm surprised a fellow Washingtonian would jump in your grill like that but I think he's off the mark. I see units similar to yours for sale every so often, but not neccessarily with the exact voltage and amperage. I have the better part of two of the engines from similar units and they have the Atlas tags on them. My stuff was used in a small engine tech class and between the two make up most of one engine less air cleaner and no generator or frame. Who was Atlas Aaircraft Products?? I don't know but I know your units are on the up and up!!

All of the units I've seen have a beautiful olive drab finish that has a light wrinkle, if I remember correctly. Mine are packed away for now, but do I remember an anchor symbol, as in navy somewhere's on a unit?? I wonder if they were naval aircraft units, but don't let me confuse the issue.

All of the engines on the units I've seen are actually small Lauson four-stroke engines. The quality of all of the stuff appears superior, such as the rope start pulleys are a high quality turned aluminum rather than the cast pot-metal common to the "civilian" Lauson engines, of which I also own several. I suspect you'd agree that the paint finish is top notch and the gas tank, while small, is also of superior quality to most others that you see on small engine units. All of this smacks of aircraft, too, or at least aircraft quality. (Rumor has it that the Navy uses aircraft too, now and again ! LOL)

Look your unit over carefully and you may find several additional name/information plates. Some of the units I've seen have separate badges on the engine and the generator that individually call out not just the unit specifications, but the weights, that is, the generator badges will say what the weight of the generator is (and volts, amps, etc...) and the engine badges will include the weight of the engine (and horspower, etc...) but you'd have to do a little math to figure out the weight of the units as combined.

Since the voltages can be a little weird on some of these units and the overall power output is pretty small, they may hold interest for a smaller segment of engine collectors than other larger a.c. sets. I almost hate to tout this unit too highly because I'd snatch one up if it was close by and I could get it for a song, but then I'm a bit of a cheapskate, sometimes.

As far as the ignition system goes, I would err on the side of doing too little rather than too much, in light of the fact that information is a little scanty for the time being. If you have adequate spark, I would leave it alone. If spark ain't there, I would pop the flywheel off, (don't put anything between the flywheel fins to hold the flywheel and I don't know which thread left or right is on the nut, yet) and clean the points with a bit of garnet paper followed by dragging a pristine piece of business card thick paper through the points to clean them. Screw the flywheel on loosely and recheck for spark. Repeat until you have spark. This will work for you 9 times out of 10. If it doesn't, drop back and punt!

Hopefully, you can get spark without more of a fuss and then you're probably good to go if the unit wan't left out in the rain. I have a feeling that a lot of these units never saw any "combat" so you might find the engine is not all worn out. Wouldn't that make your day!

Nice unit !! A little ingenuity could develop a small display for the unit, if ya' know a bit about electricity and you probably do.

[KidDynamo]

Look at this now, while it is still available. This is similar to my engines. How about yours?

http://ebay.com/ws/eBayISPI.dll?Item=7540236594

[John Newman, Jr.]

I'd have to agree with KidDynamo on this - While I can't recall off hand what all the tags on my little surplus generator say, I can attest that the engine, frame and generator on this type of unit each have their own separate tags identifying who made it, the specs and weight plus various contract and other cryptical numbers. I have a feeling that the 12V Positive Ground Motorola alternator that is on mine may not be original - I don't think alternators like this were around in the '40s (the time period for this particular engine model). The crude paint job on the back half doesn't help, either. Here are a couple of pictures of mine - which is pretty close to the one currently offered on eBay that KidDynamo has a link for in his post.

An interesting note on the one I have and the one on eBay is that the engine is 'reverse rotation'. Note the direction that you wrap the starter rope on the front pulley. I've actually been accused of flipping the image to make it appear this way. The carb and muffler are on the opposite side of the engine when compared to the normal placement of these components on a similar 'normal' engine. Why? I have no idea. Again, Please give us a picture of yours, or at least let us know if this is something like your gen.

[Hesperian]

Thank you all for your thoughtful opinions. I've attached a photo of the engine (sans tank, fuel line, carb., air cleaner and flywheel shroud); since the photo is not ideal, I'll answer some of the questions you've posed.

On John's, photograph, only the flywheel shroud resembles mine. That's probably not a big help, because I imagine all shrouds are similar. In further comparison to John's rig, the intake and exhaust ports are on the opposite side on my engine and the spark plug is mounted directly on top, not at an angle. Interstingly, I was initially surprised by the quality of the OD paint on the engine. With the grime wiped away, it looks new. The engine is mounted on a hefty wood base and the only label I've seen is on the electrical side. It makes sense that the two "sides" of the generator may have been manufactured by different companies and may not even be original to one another. Nor do I see any weight markings. If this were to be mounted in an aircraft, I might guess that weight would be important and thus clearly marked on it. Again, I have no clue as to how original this thing is.

As to its current status, I've removed and cleaned the fuel system from gas cap to intake port, changed the oil and removed the flywheel shroud. Engine rotates nicely and makes nice compression noises, however there is no spark. I'm hung up at the flywheel removal and, because I'm not an expert, plan on taking the engine to a local shop to have it removed. Two already missing fins "balanced" opposite each other underscore my choice to do so.

Thank you all for your thoughtful contributions to this project, I'm entirely receptive to your thoughts and suggestions. I'll add a few more photos shortly.

Steve

[Hesperian]

Folks- Here are two more photos of the mystery generator. Once again I apologize for the poor quality, they were taken with my telephone that I can barely operate to make phone calls. Thanks again

Steve

[p-3 orion]

hesperian,
I have to echo your sentiments on the cellphone. I recentlly got a new one, and was quite disenchanted with all of the nonsense "capabilities" of these devices. How 'bout just a phone with a decent battery? no camera, no mp3, no browser etc. . ..
now to the gen.
I'm no authority, in fact I manufacture tables, but regarding the "no spark" problem- I am looking at your photo and can't help but wonder if the small transformer(?) on top center of the flywheel induces a voltage from magnets somewhere on the wheel. So, I would start from the plug and work backwards to that point. Specifically, check for continuity in the plug wire, then check (continuity again)the leads from the transformer. Again, I'm certainly no pro on this topic, but thats where I'd start. Other-wise neat little set you've got there. What is your intention ?

Paul

[Fred_M]

From looking at your pictures I believe that's a 3 HP Wisconsin. The points are prob dirty. They are behind the flywheel and can be cleaned with a points file. The ignition system is much like a later Briggs and Stratton motor in it's layout and operation. Fred

[Hesperian]

Paul and Fred, Thank you both for your responses, I appreciate them. I've started working my way back from the plug, so far so good. I hope to have the flywheel off tomorrow or the next day and am quite curious to see what's behind it. I'll be certain to let everyone know.

I have no immediate plans for the generator and will be quite happy if it spins, creates a bit of smoke and makes a lot of noise; a bit of electricity would be a bonus. Since I can't play the piano and I'm not very good at cards or Twister, I keep things like this handy when company comes over. It's a great way to find the difference between good friends and great friends ; 0

Thanks again for your contributions and observations - every little bit has been a help.

[KidDynamo]

Well, it doesn't look like a Lauson, does it? Nice looking set though !

[Raymond]

I,m pretty sure the engine is a B&S, 2" bore 1.5" stroke. If the magnets in the flywheel are dead, you can convert to battery by removeing the ground lead coming out of the coil, insulate it, and connect a 6volt battery to it and grount to the block. First check the points by removeing the ground lead and checking it to ground. It should be less than 1 ohm points closed, and infinity open. I believe the Briggs back then used a flat spot on the crank for point operation so they will be open all the time except about 40 or 50 degrees before TDC. Oil on the points was a common problem caused by turning the engine on its side.
Johns engine is a Lauson/Power products. The intake and exhaust are on opposite sides of the block and it uses a single lobe cam shaft with rocker type followers to operate both valves. That alternator is a 60's GM. The alternator wasn't invented until then.

[Raymond]

On second thought Johns alternator is not GM. I believe all American cars were negative ground after 1956 or so. Lucas alternators had a peculiar rectifier with both plates brought out providing for either polarity.

[Rich Mc]

Could be a PE-167, Tech Manual TM 11-946
B&S model NP 2"X2" comp ratio 5:1, 1.4hp@2350rpm
Rich

[Hesperian]

A short update and a few more questions: Flywheel is off. Points all look clean, sharp and well-functioning, however I wonder about the condenser. Is it advisable to replace it as long as I have the flywheel off? Is there a way to test it? Elsewhere on the engine, the plug wire was simply looped around the tab on the magneto. I've cleaned the tab and plan to add a new plug wire, since the existing wire is in bad shape. Is it acceptable/preferable to solder the new plug wire to the tab? Lastly, what about the J-11 spark plug? Is there a suggested replacement?

Thanks to you all for your tips, I appreciate your time and ideas.

Steve

[Elden DuRand]

Originally Posted by Hesperian

A short update and a few more questions: Flywheel is off. Points all look clean, sharp and well-functioning, however I wonder about the condenser. Is it advisable to replace it as long as I have the flywheel off? Is there a way to test it? Elsewhere on the engine, the plug wire was simply looped around the tab on the magneto. I've cleaned the tab and plan to add a new plug wire, since the existing wire is in bad shape. Is it acceptable/preferable to solder the new plug wire to the tab?

Steve:

I'd replace the condenser as a matter of course. The only way to test it without an RLC bridge or a non-digital Ohmmeter would be to substitute a known good condenser on a running engine and see if it works.

With an Ohmmeter, you can 'sorta' test a condenser. Disconnect the condenser from the points. Set the meter to it's highest scale (R X 1000 or higher). While watching the meter, connect the leads to the condenser (polarity doesn't matter). The needle should flick towards zero then quickly return to infinity. As a double check, reverse the leads and do the same thing.

If the meter doesn't flick toward zero or doesn't show infinite resistance, the condenser is bad.

As far as the plug wire is concerned, you don't have to solder it to the tab on the coil. I think they intentionally didn't solder the leads because the heat could possibly damage the insulation or the moisture seal. Since the plug voltage will easily jump across any tiny gap in the unsoldered connection, it won't make any difference in the running of the engine.

Good luck and take care - Elden

[chrohton]

i have the same gen complete and fairly mint ive got pics up runs killer dont know anything more
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33454

[K D Redd]

The engine looks like a B&S. The coil is the 3 legged version of their magneto coil.

Kent

[Pyeper]

Sorry to revive a Dead thread. i'm doing it alot at the moment.

I have a little information on atlas Aircraft products and am looking for as much as possible, Just use the email sending option and get intouch with me.

I am actually trying to start a registry of atlas and cyclhom products