United Kingdom: Lister gears, timing, etc.

[KidDynamo]

I'm almost ready to fire up a 6 horse Lister upright hopper cooled. What a fine engine this thing is !! I have been searching Harry's site pages quite a bit and the UK site is the source for a lot of the info I have found.

I notice that I can't post on the UK web pages. Is this a "control panel" issue for me? Is this something I can change?

If I pose a question on the US SmokStak, do the U.K. readers automatically see this if they are accessing the UK page or just if they are viewing the US site?

As far as specific engine questions go, I am looking for cam timing information and for ignition or magneto timing information. I suspect that everything is spot-on now but I'd like to be able to tear assunder and refit properly.

My timing idler gear, which turns on a shaft/bolt afixed to the engine base has a bit of a wobble in it. This wobble causes a clunking sound and I'd like to investigate further. It doesn't seem like a gear should wobble like this, but maybe this is a characteristic that other Lister "L" owners could elaborate on.

Pulling the gear will obviously bring about the need for proper gear timing.

This is what got me wondering about the U.K. site as well. Thanks !!

[Harry]

The UK pages are a gateway to USENET NEWSGROUPS, which are occasionally rough and wooly, an anything goes, unmoderated portion of the web. (You never know what the cat will drag in.) Yet, as you have observed, there are a load of excellent value postings to be read.

I do ask that anyone using these pages first READ this page:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24095

For the time being, I have posting turned off until the dust settles and these boards are generally accepted by SmokStak readers. When you POST on these groups, your message goes out to hundreds of servers, NEVER to be retracted or corrected! What you do is done! If you put your email address in one of these posts, you are guaranteed to be placed on every JUNK MAIL list in the world. To use an email address, it must be a "throw-away" or have an excellent spam filter. Suggest: hotmail.com or others like it.

ListerDiesel is one of our registered users, who also frequents those boards. Also, Rob Skinner. You can also post direct to the boards through google.com via their Groups section. I'll get posting going as soon as I have time and resources.

[ListerDiesel]

Lets answer the two sections of the question for Kid separately:

Posts to Usenet:

You can use Outlook Express, Netscape or other third-party programs such as Agent (Highly recommended, it's what we use here at home and at work) to access the newsgroup hierarchy through the news client that is built in to those programs.

I won't go through setting up here, but generally it is a matter of 'subscribing' to a particular newsgroup (it's free, there is NO cost involved) and after that you go and download the existing newsgroup posts, as little or as many (some go up to 100,000 a year or more) and you can also reply to posts and start threads, just like on Smokestak.

BUT:

All posts are forever as Harry has said, and ALL posts are accessible by anyone who can use Google Groups to search the archives, so any posts that are off-color or flaming someone can be dragged out years later and used against you :-))

There are currently 60,000+ newsgroups, including the foreign language ones, the government ones and the binaries (pictures of various tastes and decency)

I subscribed to the model engineering, stationary engine, waterways and a couple of others. The first two of these Harry has put onto Smokestak so you can find me under my full name there, and on Google, going back to 1996 or so.

Rob Skinner, Arnie Fero and a couple of other USA guys have made there way onto the stationary engine group, so it isn't impossible to do it!

Have a go, but if you need help, shout and I will try and sort any questions on the list so that others can benefit from the answers.

Peter

[ListerDiesel]

2nd Half of Kid's answer:

The timing gears are marked up so that you mesh the crankshaft and intermediate gear, then the camshaft and intermediate gear. I have attached a couple of pictures from the L Type instruction book to show the gear meshing.

Let me know if you need more info.

Peter

[ListerDiesel]

Couple of other points for Kid:

The later L engines and the CS Diesel engines share a lot of common bottom-end parts, so the idler gear and mounting shaft for example are common, as the the crankshafts on those engines with 2" main bearings (early engines had 1-3/4" mains) and so on.

I have a new idler gear here at home for the CS diesel, and can probably sort out a pin as well if Kid's is badly worn. The gear is close-grained cast iron and could be bored and sleeved to bring it back, and the pin could also be remade.

Peter

[KidDynamo]

Thanks for the replies!! I am heading out to the engine shortly and will check for the marks.

I'm quite concerned about the "wobble" in the idler gear which seems like excessive clearance in a bushing, or similar. As I peer into the engine base with my eyes on the idler, I see the gear move back and forth with a slight wobble as I hand spin the engine over.

If I mount the crank and spin it as fast as I can, the same sounds emmanate from within, suggesting similar movement is taking place. I don't like the prospect of this movement occurring at running speed.

The idler gear shaft is a machined "bolt" that I need to investigate. I'll be surprised to find much wear as the rest of the engine appears to have little wear at all. With timing marks information, I am now able to dismount the gear with confidence.

Is there any hope for similar information to be found on timing the chain driven M-L model CK-1 magneto? I believe I have a reference mark on the magneto case and another on the magneto sprocket (gear). There is letter stamping on the magneto-side flywheel that reads "spark", but I haven't yet put the information together in useable form.

In addition, I haven't found any method of retarding the spark for starting. Anyone have any knowledge regarding starting this fine machine? It seems like I would want to retard the spark if the handcrank was to be employed.

Thanks for all the great information. The Lister is a fine machine indeed and I feel very fortunate to be able to own it and caretake it for some future engine enthusiast!!

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by KidDynamo

Thanks for the replies!! I am heading out to the engine shortly and will check for the marks.

Is there any hope for similar information to be found on timing the chain driven M-L model CK-1 magneto? I believe I have a reference mark on the magneto case and another on the magneto sprocket (gear). There is letter stamping on the magneto-side flywheel that reads "spark", but I haven't yet put the information together in useable form.

Your wish is my command :-))

This is for the earlier engine, but the info is basically the same as long as you haven't got the flick magneto, which you haven't.

Peter

[KidDynamo]

Well Peter, you are a handy fellow to have around !! I plan to hook up a timing light and get an idea of where my magneto if firing as fitted and compare the marks I have found to the results.

Without a retard to start feature, I think I will attempt initial start-up with the crank on the workbench. The magneto pops a fairly good spark right now and I have not even removed the cover to give the points a white glove treatment so things look good along that line.

This engine appears to have done a little "oudoor service" and there was a small amount of moisture that was recycling 'round inside the base. I removed the fuel/lube oil pump and renewed it, removed the oil lines to clean them and swabbed out the entire insides of the engine.

I hand filled the main bearing oil entrances with automatic trans oil and liberally oiled all surfaces (including the mag drive chain), and also oiled the cylinder before rotating the engine. The lube oil suction screen was plugged with rust and crapola and was dislodged but is now pristine and re-sweated to the oil pump suction fitting. Valve lifters are rotating as actuated and the engine seems to have compression and never showed any sign of water into the cylinder so I think I am getting close to "lighting off". It took two days before all of the chain rollers would turn and even then, one required a bit of heat.

The mixer needs a little cleaning but that appears to be an easy proposition. The fuel bowl inspection cover was intact but appears to have allowed water inside the bowl which eventually ran into the overflow pipe and caused the fuel pump spring to "go gunny sack". I replaced it and will also have to find a governor/ throttle linkage spring but that should be easy, although a little testing may be required to get the tension correct.

As far as the idler gear goes, I am going to try things as-is and see how it performs. I plan to change the lube oil a few time anyway; I can do a test run and shut it off and check it. Since refitting requires removing the upper main bearing casting and the governor shaft bearing support casting, I'm not sure I want to do this straight off.

Thanks very much for the technical assistance. I am most appreciative and hopefully others may find this of some interest or can access the information from Harry's archives, if needed!! It may be a few days yet before I start up this engine. I still have to conjure up a fuel tank and I haven't even checked to see if Yankee pipe threads or copper tubing conform to "Lister Standard sizes"

[ListerDiesel]

Something to watch out for, and this applies to all the L, LK, CS Diesel singles and twins.

The camshaft runs in bronze bearings, libricated by oil splash and spray. The gear drive end by the governor isn't too badly off for lubrication, but the non-drive end is in a corner with no real chance of anything until the engine picks up and runs.

There should be a small hex plug marked "OIL" on the top face of the crankcase adjacent to the left-hand valve lifter. Undo this plug and pour or squirt a cupful of engine oil (NOT ATF please!) and replace the plug.

The oil runs down a drilled hole and into that bearing. I think the early engines have the governor end bearing showing through the cover, so you can squirt some oil onto that directly.

Use at least an SAE30 oil unless it is VERY cold, and make sure it is a detergent oil as well. The plunger pump is behind the flywheel, and is built in with the fuel pump (on petrol engines) If the operating cam is moved to the top of its stroke the pump can be operated by hand to make sure there is oil in the system before you start.

Most of the threads if not all are UK BSP (British Standard Pipe) and US threads will not be compatible. Thread details for all UK Threads are on our website in the tables section.

Peter

[KidDynamo]

Well, a couple of days turned into 2-1/2 months. My initial attempt to start my Lister was a couple months ago and was thwarted by a cracked leadout tower. I didn't recognize it immediately but I was shocked when the engine fired out the muffler a couple of times with a quite loud explosion!

It turned out that the mag fires every revolution and since this engine is a 4 stroke, there is a wasted spark every revolution. What seems to have transpired was that the magneto would "short fire" internally across the cracked leadout tower when the engine was on compression but would fire the plug on the exhaust stroke since the plug is so much easier to fire without compression-induced high resistance.

This wasted spark would occur with a slight amount of exhaust valve opening and would ignite the unburned fuel that had accumulated in the muffler. Ver-r-r-y loud indeed! Kind of startling, too, the first time!

Further attempts at start-up as the sun went down allowed the internal sparking of the broken lead-out to be observed in the dim light. It became obvious that a replacement of the lead-out tower was needed and I eventually decided I would try to make one.

@-1/2 months went by but spurred on by David Lyon's post about New Years Eve engine running, I began work on the tower last night and finished it this morning.

Once I had finished the leadout tower and installed it, the engine fired up and ran fine. By this time, I had already repeatedly checked the valve timing and the magneto and it's timing so I haven't even read the manual that I purchased a month ago. My "skills" at setting this engine into running order came as a result of information gained on this website from Peter, a.k.a. Listerdiesel. All of his data was spot-on and for this I am very grateful!!!!

If any collector from the USA ever have the opportunity to own one of these engines from across the big pond, I recommend the experience. The engines are high quality, for sure, and share apparent lineage to American engines although it is never clear which is the chicken and which the egg. (LOL)

The U.K. stationary website pages are a kick to read too, as these folks pride themselves not only in their engine skills but obviously enjoy composing posts that are informative, contain many links to their photos, and frequently employ the fine art of double-entendre. They often kid one another without anybody getting their nose out of joint and that is a fantastic trait!!

Thanks, Peter...........!!!!!

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by KidDynamo

Well, a couple of days turned into 2-1/2 months. My initial attempt to start my Lister was a couple months ago and was thwarted by a cracked leadout tower. I didn't recognize it immediately but I was shocked when the engine fired out the muffler a couple of times with a quite loud explosion!
Thanks, Peter...........!!!!!

Great stuff! :-))

Glad to hear that it is all running now.

BTW: My posts to the UK newsgroup are under my full name, Peter Forbes, in case you wondered why I 'never' posted there...

Peter

[Edward S]

Hiya Kid Dynamo.
Pleased to hear you have a good old Lister engine. As for timing the magneto you shoyld be able to find a mark on the flywheel rim which looks like a zigzag which indicates when the points are just opening. As for the wobbly cam shaft gear wheel this probably due wear on either the pin or key locking the gear to the shaft. I had the same problem on 6hp Lister P type engine, if it is not attended to it could possibly result in broken timing gears. Hope this is of help to you. All the best, TED or Edward S.

[KidDynamo]

The gear "wobble" may be a non-issue after all. After removing the idler gear and it's shaft, I really didn't see much wear. I guess maybe the wobble description was a bit overstated and besides, what was really bothering me was a clunking noise in the gear train.

Here is what I found: When turning the engine by hand, it would roll over as expected but there was a regular "clunking" sound that seemed to accompany some movement of the idler gear.

After watching inside the base, I finally figured out that as the first cam came around to open a valve, the gear train would have all the backlash towards one side of all the gear teeth.

Then when the cam lobe cam over top, the valve spring pressure on the valve stem actually had enough power to push the gear train slack to the opposite side of each gear. When all the lash went from one side to the other, all the gears would make a "clunk" sound as the teeth made contact on the opposite faces.

Then the process would repeat, over and over as you cranked it.

When running, no clunk, no bad sounds. I'm calling it good!

I found a mark on the flywheel that says "spark" and that is where I set the timing. Seems to work good. Engine starts easily, doesn't kick back too much, and doesn't run hot. I'm satified with the timing as is but will keep my eyes open for other marks too.

Thanks for the reply, Ted. I bought this engine on eBay from a local collector.

[Samuel.G]

Good on you KD, its good to hear of another proud Lister owner. My 4hp tank cooled L is still sitting in the shed, waiting for the auto shop to remake rings for it. Hopefully soon......

[B. K. Lahey]

Great to hear of another Lister up and going Kid, think I spoke to you when you started the project, I was the same about the "wobble" in the idler as you but I tied my flywheels with the maggy on the mark and took the idler out(my 11yr old grandson has a habit of "turning" things and I didn't want to take the flywheel and bearing cap off to retime it), I checked it for wear and there was bugger all, just a bit of oval on the shaft.
You cant go wrong with anything Peter tells you, I use his site a lot, I did put new rings in mine to stop the blue smoke, Listers wear the rings not the piston or bore, my top ring was worn out but the piston was good, enjoy your engine, I crank mine up nearly every day and sit there with a glass of beverage and enjoy it.
Samuel! still no rings, contact me off forum for the aussie address.
BK