Need (Indian) Lister help!!

[George Andreasen]

I purchased one of the Indian Lister clones some time ago and finally got around to working on it. I have a number of Fairbanks, Hercules, etc. but have never owned a diesel, so I only have a fair idea how things should work.

So I cleaned everything, removed gobs of paint from various things including the governor linkage...that's where I found something I don't understand. With the governor linkage disconnected, shouldn't you be able to push or pull the fuel "rack" back and forth easily? Mine wouldn't budge. A quick check on the internet found original Lister instructions that say it could stick with lack of use (laquered diesel fuel). So I soaked it in penetrating oil and gently tapped it with a small soft hammer (I found out later that you DON'T do that, but I was very gentle). I was able to drive the rack back and forth, but it took some time. I finally removed the whole injection pump and examined it. On the back of the main casting is a screw, which I carefully removed. The screw has a pin that engages a slot on the inside element (for indexing?). With the screw out, the rack moves by hand pressure but obviously the screw should be there!
My concern is this. With the pump in place and the rack in the "wide open" position (I think), when the engine starts the governor SHOULD pull the rack to the preset rpm. BUT, if the rack is truely jammed I would have a runaway engine with the first stroke.....not good. So how does the linkage overcome this...or does the pump release its hold on the rack somehow when it starts pumping?
Other question: How in the world does the cutoff lever cut anything off? It simply raises a cam that rubs on the linkage. I need to get answers on these things before I fire up...don't want it to go through the wall and end up in the neighbor's yard!
By the way, I'm not running these engines down. I think you get your money's worth in iron alone...I just don't want a disaster because of my ignorance. Thanks all! George

[Jim McIntyre]

Originally Posted by George Andreasen

My concern is this. With the pump in place and the rack in the "wide open" position (I think), when the engine starts the governor SHOULD pull the rack to the preset rpm. BUT, if the rack is truely jammed I would have a runaway engine with the first stroke

Well, I wouldn't phrase it as 'preset rpm.' What happens is that before starting, the rack is suppoed to be held in the wide open position by the governor spring. As the engine comes up to speed, the internal flyweights counteract the spring force, and act to close the fuel rack.

I'm no expert on these pumps. But, I do have a Listeroid, and when the linkage to it is disconnected, the rack moves very, very, freely whether the engine is running or not. You're wise to be concerned about any sticking in the rack, I'd say.

Some of the guys that sell these (Mike Monteith, George @ Utterpower) have parts, and should be able to help you out.


Some general info here:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/die...tion/fuel1.htm

This one is probably similar to your pump:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/die...tion/CAV24.htm

Good luck, and please keep us posted on what you find...

[George Andreasen]

Thanks for your reply Jim. I just received an email from George about ten minutes ago (he just got back from a trip out of town) and hopefully we can straighten this out. From my experience with governors on my other engines, I knew something was not quite right....better safe than sorry! I'll post results for everyone once I get this one running. They look like a good bet for a "modern" antique that you can actually use instead of one of your "collector grade engines". George

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by George Andreasen

Thanks for your reply Jim. I just received an email from George about ten minutes ago (he just got back from a trip out of town) and hopefully we can straighten this out. From my experience with governors on my other engines, I knew something was not quite right....better safe than sorry! I'll post results for everyone once I get this one running. They look like a good bet for a "modern" antique that you can actually use instead of one of your "collector grade engines". George

George:

I got your email, thanks, and have replied here so that others can see the response in context.

All of the small jerk pumps should have a freely moving pump rack. There are no internal seals to make it stiff to move and there is obviously a possibility that the governor would not have the force available to shift the rack back to the running speed position after starting.

I am not a great fan of the clone engines, but see why people buy them to play with. Their biggest problem is the lack of quality controls which your example highlights.

I would be inclined to treat this as a warranty issue with the supplier rather than try and tackle it yourself, but if you want to go that route then have a look at the Injection section of our website for some cutaway drawings of these pumps that will assist in stripping and reassembly.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/die...tion/fuel1.htm

Make special note of the indexing of the rack and drive gear for the element!

Regards,

Peter

[George Andreasen]

Thank you Peter for your help also...and sorry about the rambling email. I was getting desperate! I checked your site and couldn't bring up the one section on Lister pumps, but found the identical pump in the "CAV" portion. NOW I have information and advice from several people (including George Breckinridge at Utterpower) that confirms what I suspected....it's just plain stuck. I'm going to soak/disassemble the whole unit (checking for index marks!), lube with diesel and reassemble. I don't expect any real problems unless the inner element is scored or pitted, in which case I'll contact a supplier for parts. Hey, it's no different than any of the other old engines we work on!
You're right about the quality control issues with these Indian engines, but unless you live in the U.K. original Listers are somewhat scarce on this side of the pond. Now if I could just talk my wife into a vacation....say a cruise on a ship with a BIG cargo hold.............Thanks again to everyone, George

[GeneratorGus]

I've been playing with antique diesels for a few years now, all of mine have injection equipment very similar to whats on your Listoid, in fact I have a Lister 6/1 which is virtually identical. If the rack doesn't run freely it will not operate properly even if the governor is capable of overpowering it. It will hunt and possibly overspeed on it's up and down speed variations. Carefully disassemble it, and I mean "carefully", make note of the position of the barrel before you remove it (there are allignment marks on the rack and barrel), clean it, I use spray carb cleaner, and reassemble (put all of the parts in clean diesel fuel before reassembly). If the rack still doesn't move freely, it may be bent or damaged. I had a CAV pump, on a Petter AV1,that wouldn't run freely, and I finally gave up trying. I jury rigged a pump from a 3 cyl Lister to it, and it runs just fine. A word about relacement pumps, you can usually find a good used one at some local diesel shops, especially in farm country, although they may be similar, some of the racks run opposite, (full speed when pushed left), and have larger barrels (more fuel per stroke), but I have used both succesfully. The larger barrel usually isn't too much problem, but getting the governor linkage to work backwards gets a little involved. ALL SAID THE DIESELS ARE A LOT OF FUN TO PLAY WITH.

[Doug Waggonner]

If any Stakers here ever want one of these India Lister engines, give me a call! I've been dealing in these for years. And all stakers get $100 off of the price. I really need to call Harry again and be a sponser here

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by GeneratorGus

A word about relacement pumps, you can usually find a good used one at some local diesel shops, especially in farm country, although they may be similar, some of the racks run opposite, (full speed when pushed left), and have larger barrels (more fuel per stroke), but I have used both succesfully. The larger barrel usually isn't too much problem, but getting the governor linkage to work backwards gets a little involved. ALL SAID THE DIESELS ARE A LOT OF FUN TO PLAY WITH.

All of the element plungers have an ID code on one of the 'ears' at the bottom of the plunger where it locates in the holder with the peripheral gear machined in it.

The ID codes are available if anyone wants to ask, I have most of the CAV and other maker's codes. The coding is fairly widely used and usually any pair of elements with the same coding will be the same, regardless of the maker.

All injection pumps are metric threads, wtach out for that when replacing unions etc.

The other thing to watch out for is the element diameter. A small engine such as the Petter AV1 that Gus mentioned would probably have a 6mm diameter plunger and a '60' in the pump number. A Lister 5/1 or 6/1 has a 7mm plunder and a '70' in the number and so on.

Because the helix varies from engine to engine, and sometimes for the same engine but later/earlier manufacture, it is imperative that you match up any replacements as accurately as possible.

As Gus has said, some helixes are reversed, so your pump will go to full throttle when you want it at tickover and vice versa, not a happy situation.

Peter