Alternative fuel

[Keith E.]

Sorry but I have to blow smoke and shoot flames on this. Probably also gonna smack a bee hive, BUT,with all the different types of alternitive fules available to us, why are we still buying from the other countrys???Diesel will run off of corn, soybean,used cookin oil, and I see tonight, human CRAP???Here in Southern NJ we grow alot of corn and soybeans, why cant we convert it to fuel????? just wanderning. Rustbug

[BobRR]

Keith Just have to ask you don't have any crap In Jersey? Even though I know you guys do ship it to other states! I know some of it ends up here and those dumps are pumping methane to run geneators. Some how I dont think it is cost affective?? It at least creates truck driving jobs! BobRR

[KeithW]

One small problem. If we dedicated the necessary land to raising fuel crops there would not be any left for another other useful item, food. No single alternative is the magic bullet. Each energy source needs to contribute a piece so we are not overly dependant on any one source. The key is balancing all the energy sources.

keithw

[Elden DuRand]

What I REALLY like is the folks who are touting Hydrogen as a motor fuel. At the present time, it takes a LOT more energy to produce H2 than you get out of it.

Sure, burning H2 in an engine is clean but look at all the "dirt" that is produced to make it.

I'm not sure of the energy trade off but I also think gasohol (ethanol) is about the same way as Hydrogen. After running the machinery through the fields, fertilizer, fuel for the distillery, etc. I don't think you come out ahead.

Even direct use of soybean, corn oil, etc. for Diesel fuel may not be a break-even either.

Maybe if you're a farmer, you could buy your own press to get the oil out and run your machinery with it using part of your crops to pay for the fuel. Then, there's the "leftovers" from the press that I understand is very good cattle feed.

Soooooo.......In my notso humble opinion , Diesel fuel from oil producing plants makes the most sense.

Now - the big kicker. How are we going to produce enough bio Diesel to satisfy our thirst?

How about small solar electric (roof-mounted solar panels charging batteries) cars? For just putt-putting to the store and doing short-run city errands, you could just leave the car parked outside in the open and let the sun make your fuel. Not practical for long trips, big heavy vehicles or high speeds but probably viable as a partial alternative to fossil fuels.

I think there are gonna be tough times ahead, fuel wise, unless we rethink a lot of things.

Take care - Elden

[Keith E.]

Elden, your kinda looking at where i'm thinking on this. Hydro? humm, got enought humidity here already, and in MY thoughts, thats puting MORE mosture into the air. Got enought of that already here in the summer, exposed iron will show signs of rust overnight. Farmland here dying out to houses overnight. Just want to know what it takes to turn soy or corn into fuel? Even on a small scale. Somethings gotta give on there fuel costs. Sandy

[Andrew Mackey]

Out west people are already making fuel from corn - its called alcohol!

Bio Diesel is nice, but is erosive to the injector system. Ever get behind a biodiesel that got its fuel from McDonalds (french fries)or Arthur Treachers (fish )

Ever see the Mad Max Movies, The cars were run on methane! When the movie was in planning stages, the movie makers were going to rig all kinds of weird stuff to cars, to make them look different. One directer saw a 'gas buggy' (I don't know what the Aussies called them), and fell in love with it! A casting call was put out, and about 12 or 15 were found in operating condition The rest were dummied up. The 'gas buggies' were built during WWII when gasoline was virtually impossible to find, and most ran on methane - derived form gassification of biomass.

A local Cable News report stated that Iceland plans to be totally Hydrogen powered within 7 years. Water is plentiful, Geothermal energy provides the heat for steam, which powers electric plants, as well as the flow of water from the glaciers, providing hydro-electric, who provide power for the electrolytic break down of water. H2 goes to the cars, O2 goes to the hospitals and export!

With all the natural resources that provide raw materials, and energy, H2 should end up pretty cheap, over there at least!
Andrew

["TheToolman"]

Keith. Here is quite a few fuels! some of these sites are really cool.
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27776

[BobRR]

What I don't understand is why we don't use more hydro.electric? The river that runs through here there are atleast a 1/2 dozen dams most of which at one time had generators. I know of only one for sure that is still used to gen. power. A couple have had the equipment removed. The 2 biggest(built by ford and Edison and named after them) I think still have the gen. but I dont think they are using it? Doesn't make any sense to me. BobRR

[MoRo]

Sometimes you have to ask some environmentalists why such things aren't done.

[Franz©]

The biggest reason many damsites capable of generating are in disuse is the inherant dishonesty of power producers.
Even before producers started marching to the Montana Power model, laws were passed requiring system operators to buy power from independant producers. A number of small dams were acquired by investor groups dreaming of making money from flowing water, at 100% profit, in their minds.
Unfortunately, what the lawmakers never took into account was the mindset of producing system operators, basicly, NOBODY tells us what to do, or how to do it.
Most producers would rather spend millions on lawyers, enforcing their monopoly, than thousands buying power from independants. 30 years ago, the lawyers went at it, and the buying public lost. Since then, dang near every utility of any size stuffed their tariff book with pages of regulations on buying from independants, making it near impossible for a small producer to sell power into the grid. They also added tariffs in the 80s that allowed the utility to continue to profit as customers installed cogeneration equipment and peak shedding equipment. We have a school district here that installed a bank of gas engines spinning generators because a salesman convinced them they could save money making their own electric from wellhead gas they could buy cheap. When the project went on line, the school was shocked to learn they still had to pay the utility for capacity in place, even if they no longer used it, and that resulted in more expensive killowatt hours. That was 10 years ago, and the lesson has been forgotten. It will be relearned next month as another school district brings it's electric plant on line.

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by Keith E.

Sorry but I have to blow smoke and shoot flames on this. Probably also gonna smack a bee hive, BUT,with all the different types of alternitive fules available to us, why are we still buying from the other countrys???Diesel will run off of corn, soybean,used cookin oil, and I see tonight, human CRAP???Here in Southern NJ we grow alot of corn and soybeans, why cant we convert it to fuel????? just wanderning. Rustbug

We know of many installations in the Far east that use vegetable oil to run engines on, but they have it as waste product in some quantity so it would otherwise be thrown away.

Running diesels on vegetable oil can be done, but if you take the costs of processing the oil to make it suitable for use, you really need to be into very high volumes to make it pay.

Big marine engines are run on almost unrefined crude oil with some success, but again there is a cost of processing to make it work.

Brazil has a very large alcohol-based fuel system for cars, but (too many buts here!) it has a higher consumption than regular petrol and the engines need to run hotter as alcohol runs cooler than normal.

Gas (not petrol) is one form of energy that is probably under-utilised, our local landfill has three big gensets running off waste methane from the tip and they actually pump power into the grid, but it's not practical for smll installations as you haven't the flow of gas to make it work reliably, unless you are a chicken farm or mushroom grower...:-))

Peter

[cphilip]

We are working and perfecting a BioDiesel catalyst that uses Ethanol instead of Methanol... as well as working with many AgriFuel production sources including Algea...

Thats all in addition to typical recycling BioDiesel such as used cooking oils

Who said BioDiesel was destructive the engine? Well...fact is... any source of Diesel fuel that's low Sulphur would be if you did not put lubricating additives into it. I mean they formulate Diesel fuel specificly with Lubricity additives into it in the process. Thats mainly what does that for you is the additives. It's rather missleading to attribute that problem to the root source. Thats how rumors get started. From a missunderstanding of the cause and solution. If you make BioDiesel you have to formulate it for its use. Not just run off a batch. Some of it is poor fuel and some of its good fuel. It varies with the quality of the initial product used to make it. And may need some additives to make it good engine fuel. But if its done properly there is no difference at all. None. Its a bit hard to get it to have the same Cetane level as Fossil based but even that can be added to.

The price break between it and Fossil is approaching. But not there yet. It does take energy to produce energy. Those two points have to cross. And thats a moving target.

[Andrew Mackey]

cphillip,
I based my info on biodiesel on experiances of several friends that rebuild diesel fuel injecter pumps and injecters. This is not a hobby to them, they are state certified and licensed rebuilders, and own their own business (40 years or so) Also the local PBS network had a special on alternative fuels, and the erosion problem in biodiesel engine fuel systems was also brought up by quite a few owners and investigaters. Several users and providers have developed techniques to beat the problem, but the fix usually pushed the finished product out of practical price, at this time. If diesel hits $4 or 5 a gallon, then the refining nescessary, just may be worth it. Slightly off topic - it is rumered here that gasoline will reach possibly $4 in the summer. In the wake of record profits (and they say it is not gouging) how can these prices be justified? You certainly do not hear of any new refineries being built, nor of any new natural gas pipeline or pumping stations!
Andrew

[Elden DuRand]

Originally Posted by Andrew Mackey

Slightly off topic - it is rumered here that gasoline will reach possibly $4 in the summer. In the wake of record profits (and they say it is not gouging) how can these prices be justified?Andrew

Andrew:

I've often wondered what the actual PROFIT MARGIN is for petroleum products. Our infinitely wise news media never tells us what the percentage profit is, just how many gazillion dollars gross profit they made.

Ferinstance, if they made 10 billion dollars profit against a cost of 100 dollars, that would be excessive. On the other hand if they made 10 billion dollars profit against a cost of 9.5 billion dollars, I don't think that would be excessive.

It'd be interesting to know..........BUT I'd almost be willing to bet that their profit margin is somewhat below 10%.

Does anyone have actual true-to-life figures?

Take care - Elden

[agsem]

Last August when regular unleaded gasoline sold for $3.40 a gallon, some newspapers published justification put out by an Oil Industry group, that listed itemized costs for each gallon. Including getting it out of the Mid East ground, transportation, refining costs and federal taxes it added up to 0.988 cents per gallon, delivered to your local service station. I wish that I had kept that article.
Greg Hayden

[Scott]

They just showed how to make biodiesel on one of the car restoration shows on "Spike" tv last Sunday morning. They got used cooking oil for free and added lie to adjust the Ph and added some racing fuel ( methanol) I believe. At the end of the show he claimed it cost .70cents per gallon to make, of course he bought a fancy kit ( mixing tanks, pumps, filters and sample equipment).

[agsem]

Willie Nelson was on the NBC national news Wednesday evening talking about BioDiesel.

http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/index.html

Is Willie Nelsons Bio Diesel site

The attached image shows the four states -- Green -- where BioWillie is currently available, one of the locations is near me, in Escondido, CA.

Greg Hayden

[Doug Waggonner]

I'm sure most of you know about my "veggy oil" powered engines? http://www.members.aol.com/westernst...anlisters.html There sure alot of fun to experiment with running all sorts of oil's for fuel....That, and they just look cool!