Help ID Diesel

[GeneratorGus]

This little guy followed me home yesterday from the Jacktown swap.
Thouble is I don't recognize it. Anybody got any ideas? It has an American Bosch Injector pump and pierce governor, but no name tag.

[ListerDiesel]

Any chance of a decent sized picture, Gus? that one's a little small to see any detail.

Peter

[GeneratorGus]

Apollogies for the picture, new camera and I couldn't figure out how to get the bytes within range. I don't have time to try again today and will be away this week. I have a feeling I've seen this engine before, but can't put my finger on it. If you don't mind I'll try again next weekend.
Thanks
GUS

[John Schwiebert]

No doubt is a model APF pump. Do you have the information off the tag? I would like that number and then I can probably cross it over.

[Gary McGill]

Gus--The flywheel and the air cleaner look Witte. Is it one of the Witte verticles? Gary McGill

[Gary McGill]

Gus-- Did you make an ID. A Witte generator guy is curious!
Gary McGill from AZ

[GeneratorGus]

Got home last nite, and got some new pictures with my old camera, should be able to post them with no problem. I
Gary, I have a Witte EAD upright, much smaller and not at all similar.
The base and block have some resemblance to my Stover 5HP, but it stops there. I pulled the head and found it is direct injected, 4 1/8 bore, 5 in. stroke. No head gasket, just a copper ring like the Witte and some Fairbanks use. The radiator and fan are gone as well as the injector, but the rest of the engine is in pretty good shape.
As a point of curiosity, Stover started with the ACRO, combutstion system (my 5 HP has this), according to Wendel, later came out with a Lanova system. I've seen a few ACRO, but I never saw the Lanova and don't know how similar the engines were. Since the development of the diesel supposedly helped put Stover out of business, and that Fairbanks bought Stover or at least it's facilities, maybe there is a possibility that this engine is a later Stover prototype that Fairbanks finished up. Probably not.
Forgot to mention, no tag or a place where one might have been on the engine.

[ronm]

Filters, air cleaner, paint color, general look of the thing all remind me of a Witte...

[Harvey Teal]

Aw shucks Gus,
you don't have time to play with that thing anyway.
Next time I'm down your way I'll stick it in the back of my
truck & get it out of your way. Don't let Donny see it......

[Franz©]

Originally Posted by Harvey Teal

Aw shucks Gus,
you don't have time to play with that thing anyway.
Next time I'm down your way I'll stick it in the back of my
truck & get it out of your way. Don't let Donny see it......

I'd say your generoscity is only exceded by your good looks, but too many people would get hurt falling on the floor laughing.

[GeneratorGus]

Your all heart Harvey, maybe you and Franz can stop by and take your pick.
I did some investigative poking around yesterday, pulled one of the crankcase inspection covers also the Pierce governor from the top front of the timing gear case. Neat surprises. No timing gears, chain drive, this smacks of Fairbanks Morse. Aside from the clean as a whistle oil sump, the most noticeable feature in the crankcase is a totally machined connecting rod, complete with centerline scribe marks and the number 4414 stamped on both the rod and the cap and the rim of the bearing. WHY SO CLEAN? It doesn't appear to have been taken apart. Aside from some carbon residue on top the piston, there is no black stuff anywhere inside, looks kinda new. The more I look at the block and the base it seems to be Stover inspired. Right now I'm gonna stick to the Stover/Fairbanks hybrid theory until someone sets me straight.

[Harvey Teal]

Hey Franz,
I'm only trying to help the guy out. I'll bet he doesn't even
have room to park his truck in the garage....

[GeneratorGus]

Hey, my truck has never seen the inside of a garage, what a waste of space. A point I didn't mention before, I wanted to keep it hush hush til' I got 'em home, I tripped into a nest of these little critters, I now have three, went and retrieved them this morning. Two got away, the guy dosn't want to sell them and before anybody asks, neither do I, not yet anyway.
You guys ever heard of a Victor diesel?

[KidDynamo]

Originally Posted by GeneratorGus

.......... No timing gears, chain drive, this smacks of Fairbanks Morse........

The small Fairbanks one cylinder diesels that I have any info on all use timing gears, direct meshed, and no chain, but what do I know. I don't even have one (diesel, that is).


Sure, the O.P.'s used quite the timing chain arrangement, especially the direct reversible marine units.

Small Fairbanks engines with timing chain? What model?

Like your engine !

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by GeneratorGus

Hey, my truck has never seen the inside of a garage, what a waste of space. A point I didn't mention before, I wanted to keep it hush hush til' I got 'em home, I tripped into a nest of these little critters, I now have three, went and retrieved them this morning. Two got away, the guy dosn't want to sell them and before anybody asks, neither do I, not yet anyway.
You guys ever heard of a Victor diesel?

The Witte vertical diesels are similar, but looking at the specifications and the dimension drawings there are differences to your picture.

There is no Witte engine with the bore sizes you quote, and no engine with a double-stepped base and they all have the injector out in the open, where yours has it inside the rocker cover.

All Witte engines have gear camshaft drive.

Nordberg ditto.

Coventry Victor made water cooled diesels, but they would have had Bryce or CAV injection gear, not American Bosch. The bore & stroke are also smaller. They were represented in the USA, but the bore and stroke details take them out of the equation for now.

Fairbanks-Morse model 45 is similar but gear driven camshaft and injector outside, bore and stroke are different. The Model 48 is air cooled, all the others are larger engines.

Hallett are too small and have gears for the camshaft.

Buda ditto.

Crofton were rebadged Petter engines, too small.

Palmer looks a little better 4-1/8" bore and 6" stroke, no mention of the camshaft drive method. Crankcase is split just above the crankshaft centerline. Bosch injection equipment. Best candidate so far.

That's as far as I got, looking through the catalogues.

Peter

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by GeneratorGus

As a point of curiosity, Stover started with the ACRO, combutstion system (my 5 HP has this), according to Wendel, later came out with a Lanova system. I've seen a few ACRO, but I never saw the Lanova and don't know how similar the engines were.

Buda were the main user of Lanova combustion chambers in the USA, engines were advertised as the Buda-Lanova Diesel.

Peter

[KidDynamo]

Originally Posted by ListerDiesel

Fairbanks-Morse model 45 is similar but gear driven camshaft and injector outside, bore and stroke are different. The Model 48 is air cooled, all the others are larger engines.

Peter

F.Y.I. I paid too much for: "Instruction 4800A4 Fairbanks-Morse One, Two, and Three Cylinder, 48 Series Diesel Engines; Instructions and Parts List for Models 48A4 & 48A4-1/4.

I bought it just to see what the heck the engine was as it is not listed in Wendel's 100 history. Dang book has a ton of sketches and info but not a single photo or drawing of an engine!

Anyway, part VIII., Cooling System, pp. 10:

"The engine has water jackets extending the full length of the cylinders to provide for their uniform cooling......"

No mention anywhere of air cooling for the engines covered by this manual. I later found out their are other bore ranges, too.

My book doesn't rule out air cooled models but I wanted to clarify the info on the 48 series engine.

There were other models of engines made by Fairbanks that are not in any of the Wendel books, but I have no specifics handy.

Not trying to be a smartie-pants....just thought I'd input some micro-details into circulation.

I did some searching for Victor and saw some 40's- 60's (?) English diesel stuff and interestingly, found that some old marine engines in the early 1900's were engines made by another maker re-badged and sold by Fairbanks. It is most all on the antique marine engine site.

There are still a lot of "undiscovered" engines marques out there, I would think, particularly in the small industrial diesels that weren't seen in everyday life: railroad stuff, refrigeration, air compressors....

Still tuned in.......

[ListerDiesel]

Originally Posted by KidDynamo

Anyway, part VIII., Cooling System, pp. 10:

"The engine has water jackets extending the full length of the cylinders to provide for their uniform cooling......"

No mention anywhere of air cooling for the engines covered by this manual. I later found out their are other bore ranges, too.

My book doesn't rule out air cooled models but I wanted to clarify the info on the 48 series engine.
Still tuned in.......

Looks like there was a 1-cylinder that was air-cooled, but the text is a little ambiguous in the American Diesel Engine Catalog that I have here. I think I may have mentioned before in a previous discussion that only the 1-cyl was air-cooled, but the text also says that 1-6 cylinder versions are available in water-cooled as well.

The 1-cyl air-cooled was 3" X 4" bore and stroke, the others were 4" or 4-1/4" X 5" bore and stroke, so it was a completely different engine. It was a third the weight of the 1-cyl water-cooled engine! 415# against 1250#

Peter

[GeneratorGus]

My 45A Fairbanks V-twin has chain driven cam, oil pump, water pump and injector pump, the 45A single cyl. does also. The model 36A was sold in 4 1/4 and 5 1/2 bore, the 4 1/4 was gear driven but the 5 1/2 was chain drive. I don't know if there are others.

John if your still watching this thread the injector pump no. is APF1A-80N-00 371160, I hope you can reference it.

I only mentioned Victor diesel because there was one sitting along the driveway, uncovered, where I got these engines.

I'm still hanging with Fairbanks or Stover.
The Fairbanks similarities are: chain drive timing, copper fire ring head gasket, oil by-pass valve (just under the fuel bowl on my pictures), and the alum. valve cover.
Stover similarities are: the resemblance to the Stover base with fuel tank inside, the engine block, location of fuel pump, water crossover fitting from the block to the head and the alum. valve cover. Also the BYB shows 2 views of the Stover diesel but doesn't say if one was the Lanova. I would think the injector would have to be in a different location for the Lanova system. Wendwl states that there are no records of the Lanova diesels having been shipped. I'm still thinking that these engines may have been something Stover was toying with before they went belly up. I hope someone can ID this engine before I get any other crazy ideas.
I'm attaching a picture of the Stover 10HP from the BYB and a coparrison picture of the mystery engine, check out the similarities.

[KidDynamo]

Originally Posted by GeneratorGus

My 45A Fairbanks V-twin has chain driven cam, oil pump, water pump and injector pump, the 45A single cyl. does also......

Interesting that Fairbanks would so heavily modify an engine series in many ways and still call it the same engine.

The picture in Wendel's 100 years of Fairbanks of the 45 single cylinder with the crankcase open does clearly show a gear driven camshft on that one?

What a great mystery engine. It sure has a Stover look with the tiered vertical sections, etc.