Can somebody tell me what I have...?

[krucker]

Hey guys. New to this forum but been around steam for some time now. Most of my steam experience has been at a local museum (Georgia Agrirama, Tifton, GA) which has several live steam attractions including a 25 HP Atlas engine powering a DeLoach saw mill, a big 100+ HP Frick engine powering a cotton gin, a little 7.5 HP engine powering the Variety Works (woodworking shop with line shaft) and two narrow gauge locomotives including a 0-4-0 Vulcan and 0-4-0 Porter. During the past ten or fifteen years, I have had the opportunity to engineer all of these engines except for the one at the cotton gin - it is only fired about a month out of each year during ginning season and I have just never been in the right place at the right time to get on the controls of that one.

Anyway, the reason I am writing is that yesterday, I think that I began to slip down a new slippery slope. I was at the Mid-West Tool Collectors Association (M-WTCA) Peach Meet in Madison, GA when I stumbled across a little steam engine sitting under the table of one of the vendors. It was not marked as to a maker and I believe that it is probably either a reproduction or kit built engine but I am not at all sure what it is. It is about the same size and similar design as the little Cretors popcorn engines but from what I can tell, I do not believe that this one is a Cretors. Regardless, it appears to me to be well made and in good overall condition. I could not resist the temptation - it was priced with what I thought was a reasonable price and within my range so I brought it home with me. When I got in the shop last night, I hooked it up to my air compressor and the little engine ran very well and very smooth.

Anyway, I am just hoping that some of you guys out there with more steam experience than me might be able to tell me something about this little engine. Is is a vintage engine or as I suspect kit built? What might it have been used for? About how old might it really be? The guy who I bought it from did not know any history on it other than he picked it up at a tool sale ten or fifteen years ago and he finally got tired of tripping over it in his shop.

Some pictures of the little engine are below:

[Allen]

It might be a Dunbar...I don't think they marked theirs

[PTSideshow]

Its a peanut roasting engine, Commonly misnamed a popcorn engine since they where on the popcorn carts. As an added selling point.People than as now like to stop and look at the rotating scrap iron, and the litle clown that looked like he was turning a crank. Thru belts they applied power to the peanut roasting drum, and the stirring rod in the popcron popper. I would say you are holding a version of the Dunbar #1/Cretors/Kingery.
Now here is the problem. As non of the above makers of popcorn/peanut roaster/lunch wagons really made their own steam engines for long. And Dunbar and Cretors were both located in Chicago. And not getting into other issues about them. They had the local machine shops crank out the engines, any number of them for both.

Since at the time they started making the Cretors wagons, The small sized steam engine fractional horse power, these were about 1/3 HP but advertised as 1/2 hp Hype even back then would run on 10 to 15 pounds of steam. They were what today would be the fractional horse power electrical motor. Every machine shop had a close copy of the engine.
We still don't know if a foundry was selling casting kits. Or everybody just copied after one they had seen. My vote is for the casting sets.
It is not on the original bed plate but on a cabinet surface with the slot for a drive belt to go thru to operate the system of pulley's or when people up dated them and converted to electric's to drive the engine.
The Dunbars where advertised as being triple nickle plated. Seem everything was triple plated back in the day.
There are countless variations and slightly different versions of them even on the museum level it can drive you crazy.

Now as to current kits. Meyers engine works has a 1/2 size bronze kit. They made a full sized kit but only will run in now when they get a batch to make it worth it to much scrap iron sitting around as people want small engines. Coles used to make a full sized version along with brass name plate replacement. So yes there are any number of them out there that are new ones being beat up and sold as old ones. Meyers also sell a Cretors aluminum #6 which is thevertical one.
There are a number of fake noperating ones floating around that were made up for Marv Ellis's Wagon's that he made as the only official reproduction Cretors wagons. Before he passed. They are chromed and have no piston valves only the working outside for show. as the places these were located in Disney resorts all over the world and in malls required all electric's for the workings and a air operated one would be a added usless expense.

What I can tell you is that it isn't a Bartholowew as the were hand crankers or spring powered and the ones with a steam engine are adjusted ones

As the Cretors Concern started out as a machine shop. A letterhead from 1885 stated Steam peanut, Popcorn and coffee roasters Also small engines for running coffe mills. sewing machines Dental lathes ect. So there are probably more cretors engines out there for no popcorn use than use. Also it go with my feeling that after the company got larger and the machine shop nolonger made engines the supply of casting from the foundry would make sense.
I will look thru the large number of pictures I have of most popcorn wagons in the US and Canada. Marv was a nut about them would travel anywhere to get a picture of one no matter what shape.
I will pick out some pictures and look thru the Dunbar catalog for a clear drawing of the # 1.
hope this helps some as the battle has raged in the popcorn/peanut wagon areana for years.
It could be from around 1890 till they quite making them in I believe the 60's as thing changed but I will look the date up if a Cretors. And from 1900 if a Dunbar.
glen

[krucker]

Glen,

Thanks for the info on the engine. I pretty much knew that it was the correct size for a popcorn/peanut wagon, I guess my main interest was if it is original and how old it is. Your info has shed some light into my search though. Seeing that so many machine shops made these, I may never really know for sure who made it or when it was made. Regardless, it is a cool little engine.

I have done some research into popcorn/peanut wagons since obtaining this engine and have even toyed with the idea of building one to put the engine on. Don't know if I will ever do so, but something to think about.

One piece of information that I have not been able to find any information on is what type of boiler would have been on these popcorn/peanut wagons. Lots of pictures of the engines on the web but nothing that I could find showing an original boiler or any specs on the boiler. Should I ever try to build a wagon, I would like to make or have built a boiler that is historically correct for the engine and actually operate it from steam.

Anyway, thanks again for your information!

Keith Rucker
Tifton, GA

[PTSideshow]

Have to copy my picutres to digital as all Marv Ellis had where hard copies. And will continue to post info they were a slick looking. boiler and I have a picture that I have to find of the engine and fuel can and boiler. In the modern versions of the wagons. They went to all electric equipment to keep the inspectors at bay because most where used in side malls, as kiosks, or in the Disney resort hotels, the other thing was that Disney was Marvs biggest customer for various styles of wagons.
Euro Disney load out and Marv took loads of pictures. There is a company that was faking old time truck mounted ones. A couple of years ago.Also with the health codes now a days there had to be a small sink and hot water.

[John G. Simpson]

It may not be relevent to your engine as the bolts may have been changed.
hex socket ( allen head) bolts were introduced in 1936 and head sizes modified in 1960.
john