Dyno Contest

[Rob Bryce]

Hi guys,

As some people may know, the Austin museum is considering re-enacting some of the Winnipeg tractor trials soon. Unfortunately, there won't be many tractors which will be capable of pulling a plow any more.

I'm going to put in a proposal to the museum for a "for fun" dyno contest. I'd appreciate some feedback on what I'm thinking before going ahead.

1.) Recalculate the expected HP reading based on the engine's current MAWP and cylinder bore/stroke.
2.) 20 points dedicated to belting up. For each extra try, you lose 2 points. If you throw a belt while running the dyno during the test, then you lose 6 points. No time limit to belting up (for safety reasons) but after 10 tries, no more.
3.) (Up to) 5 minutes run-in so that everyone is happy with the safety and the belting and everything.
4.) 30 minute pull - that should be long enough to keep the steamers from hogging the dyno machine, and it'll be a good enough work-out for these old girls anyway.
5.) Dyno readings taken every minute.
6.) 40 points dedicated to a consistency: steady readings. Subtract the difference between your highest and lowest HP readings from 40 for your score. If you're a poor engineer and can't hold pressure, you'll lose out here.
6.) 40 points dedicated to the average HP based on the 40 dyno readings. Even if you're HP reading is all over the map, you could still score really well here. You lose a point for every HP separating the average from the ideal.
7.) The ideal HP is calculated from #1. If the engineer feels that the engine can (safely) pull more steadily, then he can ask for a higher ideal HP. He gains a point for every HP increase to the ideal pressure. He can ask for increases up to half-way through the half-hour test.

Since there's so many old worn out girls, I'm hoping that it won't be that hard to maintain a relatively low HP reading. And it's for a show, so safety is the highest priority and engineering/consistency takes preference to all-out pour-the-coals-to-her tests. Of course, there are bragging rights, so a big white board will have to show the outcomes.

What do you guys think? I kinda wanted to avoid adding in water efficiency, or consistency in pressure, to keep it simpler. What do other clubs/shows do?

Thanks,

--Rob

[3/4 ADVANCE]

Hi Rob; You have certainly been putting some serious thought into this spectacle. I have never so much as heard of anyone / anyplace / any club putting on a show like this. If someone / someplace does do it, has done it, I hope they chime in and tell us about it. Are you considering all engines one at a time on the same dyno / prony brake to eliminate variations between dynos / brakes , or trying to get a gathering of dynos / brakes and having a line up of engines belted up at the same time? If you had multiple dynos / brakes you could verify consistency across the board by running one tractor or engine on all the dynos / brakes beforehand. If you did one engine at a time on one dyno / brake a change in weather could certainly skew the results. Multiple simultaneous stack talk would be one heck of a show to watch and listen to, and the prospects for multiple spark shows are overwhelming. Of course , that could be construed as "playing" , and I don't condone that at all Keep us posted, sounds like fun. 3/4 A

[Jerry Christiansen]

Hi Rob,

This is an interesting idea. I think the next step would be to make a "score sheet". Have you given any thought to what a score sheet would look like? Would you like some of us to put score sheets together so we could discuss the pros and cons of different ideas and try to come up with a good sheet?

An exact definition of a "try" might be important in Item #2. I can think of some people that would want to argue with the judges.

I like the 5 minute run-in time in Item #3. The engineers waiting in line would have to pay attention and have fire, water and pressure ready to go. Usually engineers are good about being ready to pull when they belt up to our Prony Brake. Occasionally some one will get belted up and then need to spend a bunch of time filling the coal bunker or building steam.

Later,
Jerry

[Rob Bryce]

Hi 3/4A. We've had a dyno (Kevin Milne's) for many years in the past at the Reunion. It's always a fun part of the show. It's a hydro unit which is water cooled. It's notorious for reading high, but that doesn't matter. Multiple dyno's would be cool (I hadn't thought of that!), but that could be hard to locate and coordinate. But the thought of 3 steamers belching out smoke, talking to each other certainly does sound like fun! I suspect the Museum will have about a dozen or so engines, so even at a half-hour per engine and maybe 15 minutes to belt up, you can easily eat up time over 3 of the 4 days of the show! I don't know how to deal with changes in weather.

Hi Jerry. Actually, I hadn't given it any thought to what a score sheet could look like! What would we need on it? Engine, operator for sure (would allow the engine to be entered a few times with different engineers). # of tries to belt up. Calculated ideal HP. Then a set of entries for measured HP and ideal HP (to let the operator ask for more). And, of course, the score. What else? So yeah, please come up with something so we can have a look.

For item #2, I hadn't thought of people complaining and wanting to fudge on the count of tries! But yeah, that could be an issue.

It's really just to add to the show, and do something reminiscent of the Winnipeg trials. And to have fun, of course! Safely. If it isn't fun, then engineers won't want to participate. There's lots of us who take the engines through the parade, but with very little actual time with any load on the engines, so it could serve for some experience for us too.

I thought the Brits did some contests like that. But I went through (all of) my old steamer magazines and just can't find that article...

Thanks,

--Rob

[Beth V]

Several dynos being pulled at once would be a neat picture, however, you really couldn't compare the results of each as an overall. You'd have to pull each engine on each dyno to really compare them.

"It's notorious for reading high, but that doesn't matter. " It doesn't matter for demonstration, but if you are comparing dyno A to B &/or C, it might.

We are still smirking at my 24 Port pulling 124 at the LaGrange, IN show....

Beth

[Rob Bryce]

Originally Posted by Beth Vanarsdall

We are still smirking at my 24 Port pulling 124 at the LaGrange, IN show....

Beth

Sure it isn't really a Case in Port's clothing?

Agreed, if you have more than one dyno, then they need to be consistent with each other - or you need to predetermine a correction factor.

--Rob

[Beth V]

Hi Rob,

I can GUARANTEE that it doesn't have ANY Case blood in it!!!! ...now there might be a tad bit of Russell in it as a real Russell man did the machine work on it & it sat next to 3 Russells for 6 years....

Beth

[Farquhar]

Beth I talked to a certain fellow at Wauseon last yr, and I bet there has been some Russel influence in you PH.

[Beth V]

Farquhar,

...good bit of Keck Gonnerman too! I picked it up on the way to bring mine home! That was part of the deal, when mine left, his got delivered!

Beth

[3/4 ADVANCE]

Hi Rob; I'll toss another log on the fire. In post 2 I mentioned verifying consistency between multiple dynos / brakes with one engine or tractor beforehand, but I have no idea how valid or relevant any info gleaned would be. I was just wondering how one dyno / brake over multiple days could be affected by weather, and possibly hinder scoring. I wouldn't want to try to match someone's score from the first day in the sun on the third day after about 30 hours of rain, no matter what type of soil we were on, especially if the dyno / brake hadn't been moved and the belt length hadn't changed and you were trying to spot in muddy ruts! Assuming you hit it close, on a dry day you might squeak by, whereas on a wet day you might throw the belt. I don't know if wet fuel would skew the results much, but I have had experience on a 15" guage loco that would steam radically different on the same day as the weather changed! I know some threads have had the comment that locos and traction engines are different, but so is firing with wood vs coal. I just thought multiples at the same time would increase the visual impact, I know it did at Rock River when they had 12 steamers running 12 threshing machines (thrashers) at the same time. Maybe you can get some guests to visit and bring some dynos / brakes along with them. I enjoyed the comment in post 4 regarding the notoriety of one dynos results, that made me wonder (where's a DUCK symbol when I need it ) if the same dyno was used in the pull mentioned in post 5??????????? I'm sure I will be enlightened as to the accuracy and calibration of THAT dyno / brake in the near future, but inquiring minds want to know. I don't have answers for you, only questions, but it sure sounds to me like a winner of an idea. Good luck and keep us posted! 3/4 A

[Rob Bryce]

Hm. Yeah. I know we have to circulate water through the dyno, or she'll get too hot and you can't use it, much less get any reading from it.

Remember, this is more for show and less for competition, even if a bit of friendly rivalry does occur.

Yeah, I'm not sure why Kevin's dyno always reads high. It may be due to how the RPM factors in. But it's way off. My primary concern is that it would be consistent with itself, though. If that's the case, and the competitors knew that, and it's consistent with itself, then there's opportunity for engineers to gain back lots of points by asking for a higher ideal HP.

--Rob

[Rob Bryce]

Well....

Now that the Austin Threshermens' Reunion is done for another year, the results are in!

We tweaked the rules I listed above just a bit. It's late, I'm sleep deprived, but wanted to post a few thoughts and results.

My thanks to so many people who helped make it work at the show, and the operators that belted up their engines.

1st place: Garth on his little 45 Case. Man, he worked hard, and his tractor worked hard, but he did it! Calculated HP was 28, he pulled 40 for 20 minutes. Amazing sight. Burning railroad ties (split 4-6 ways), no black smoke, now that's a hot fire! Score was 107.9 - on his second run on the dyno!
2nd place: Ryan on a miniature Sawyer! This is kinda questionable because it was difficult to get accurate readings. But it was a crowd favorite and it was for fun!
3rd place: Bill running the Museum 110 Case. It took some time to tighten the old girl up but calculated HP was 75 and he pulled a pretty steady 80. And that was enough. We had troubles keeping the dyno cool, but it was awesome to see!

Observations:
1.) The game seems to work. Everybody seemed to have fun, the crowd liked it, and things worked smoothly. Every engineer was grinning ear to ear!
2.) Case engines were definitely the hardest to fire. We were all burning wood. Granted, we didn't have a wide variety of brands, but this was clear. It didn't matter if you counted the size of the crew splitting wood for the engine, or the number of beads of sweat on the fireman's forehead, the Cases were just a lot more effort.
3.) We used a method to calculate HP discussed on another thread here, and it seems to work. I'd also agree with Colin that Cases seem to be consistently under-rated w/r to the motor - but not the firebox size!
4.) The engines didn't seem to be over-worked either. They were put through their paces, though.

I think we'll be doing it again next year! (But with a few tweaks.)

--Rob

[Colin]

Rob, you forgot to mention the presures these engines were running.
last i heard i think garths 45 was running at 67 lbs, so he was likey running around 60 if he was lucky. and i dont think the 110 has more than 100, so it was likely pulling at 85-95 lbs.

very VERY wet steam at those presures. and so low that its not even worth crunching the numbers. at that pressure it wouldn't matter if you firebox was as big as a ball room, your engine isn't going to fire good. any experienced steam person should know that and not make claims of an engine being hard to fire.

[Reeves1665]

Colin -

Hate to tell you but there is a Reeves and some Peerless's around here that fire quite easy no matter what pressure....

Just because the cold hard truth hurts about the 110, don't be a sour apple....

Even my old 32 Sawyer fired easy at any pressure you wanted, but I will agree it did not start making the HP till you hit over 160 psi.....

Josh

[Ken Majeski]

I Think Some People Better get used to Operating Borderline engines at Reduced Pressure.... Better than Not Running at all....

New Historical Boiler Rules May be Coming to Your State/Province Next....

[60case]

Ken
i think that some states and prov have already adopted some tight rules in my province they dont want ant repairs done
Robert good idea safty and putting on a show would be a great idea

[Peter]

This is interesting thread and sounded like a good idea maybe canandaigua might try sometime.

I was thinking about colin v. reeves/sawyer comments. Since I dont have either engine and not much experience too predjuce my attitude. I have a couple thoughts. First, if a traction engine was well designed (with a sharp pencil) then the boiler and engine would be properly matched with each other. In that situation at 50% reduced pressure, the boiler would have to be difficult to fire, or else the boiler design was too large or engine cylinder too small in the first place. Now, you could argue the sawyer was deliberately over boilered just to allow the life of the engine to be extended as the boiler wore out. Then the case man could argue that the case boiler was easy to swap out and a properly balance design, where you got the best engine for the dollar.

I think today, 2007, I'd like an oversize boiler and preferably not a compound if reduced pressure was in cards.

I would enjoy hearing a details comparison of the technical merits of the two engines if that were possable without passion or predjuice. Aka "a few good men". And if not, then a hot and heated debate amoung men who could later agree to disagree. It not entirely which engine is better, its more likely what were the design trade-offs within a pricing and marketing reality.

I hope the boss dont catch me at this......break is over.

[Colin]

[QUOTE=Reeves1665;231068]Colin -
Hate to tell you but there is a Reeves and some Peerless's around here that fire quite easy no matter what pressure....
Just because the cold hard truth hurts about the 110, don't be a sour apple....
Even my old 32 Sawyer fired easy at any pressure you wanted, but I will agree it did not start making the HP till you hit over 160 psi.....
Josh QUOTE]
You better get them reeves and peerless on a brake then at 60 lbs and ill lean on the wheel until the engines barely turning over, and watch the boiler drain out in likely less then 2 minutes. a double would be esbecially hard on steam at that pressure. dad used to run a 20 reeves at newrockford ND at 100 lbs. and try to thresh. he'd go in with a raging fire, water out of the top nut and poping off. but it was a fight the whole time, and he could barely maintain a safe water level by the time the load was done. most Case engines at 100psi can thresh and hold the load. ive done it lots, its not as fun firing but it can be done.
Josh there was no 'truth' to be hurt or sour about here. i do get a kick out of your idiotic posts though. ... thers some truth for ya At least the Case's were on there trying and held on long enough to get some sort of Hp rating. Rob knows better, we let him run a 110 a couple rounds plowing last fall with 12 bottoms and he seen how efortless it was to operate and fire using good coal.

[Rob Bryce]

I restarted this thread because the contest worked, garnered interest, was fun, and seemed pretty fair. That little Case 45 that won impressed everyone. Here's a little tractor that put out 12hp (40%) more than "the math" said it should have for 20 minutes, is running at basically half of the original pressure, and still won the game! Hats off to Garth!

Again, this was done for fun and for a show. Anything else should be left for friendly discussions and jibing involving wobbly pops around a campfire. So, my mistake for listing my personal observations #2, #3.

Campfire Discussions Follow, if your emotions are going to kill your sense of humor, then stop reading now!

Everybody was fighting with sub-110psi pressures. So it was a relatively even (crappy) playing field. The Nichols 75 twin fired easy, kept the pop sizzling at 100 on crappy wood, and the fireman was having fun and wasn't working that hard at all, no extra help. They certainly weren't sweating buckets - They used all the water they had on board in those 20 minutes.

The big Case 110 thundered even at 95psi (pops at 100), they held 80HP but its appetite for water AND wood had everyone running. It was an impressive sound and sight. It was also pulling exactly twice the power of that Nichols, though. But the math said the engine should be good for it. (The Nichols HP calc'd to 41 and he held it at about 40.)

Garth's Case pops at 77 so I calc'd his HP for 72. His injectors could keep up at 32hp but not 40. I betcha Garth lost 10 lbs in sweat in those 20 minutes!

The Case 65 must be out of time because no matter what the team did (I normally operate it but wasn't going to enter my own contest), it just could not keep pressure/HP even with the highest pop setting (on a full size) at 108psi, being asked to pull 57HP.

The old 75 popped at 72 (lowest pop setting) and the injectors could not keep up at all so we had to cut the run short (with no reduction, not anybody's fault). We kept the pet cocks open on this tractor because the steam seemed so wet...

Lee's new nickname is "half-throttle". Otherwise, Bill's 60 may have faired a bit better!

No engine was worked beyond its governed speed, though some were right at that point. I asked every engineer repeatedly to make sure they felt that their engine wasn't being overworked.

Colin, we didn't pull any engine down hard as you're suggesting you'd do. I think this is important so people can keep up, and it also helps with the safety and the show. That said, I'm sure you remember years ago when Garth Crooks kept dyno'ing that George down to almost stall for an hour at a time. He reports it'd hold 100psi without killing yourself firing it, and never had a problem with running low on water!

Still, I guess it was a mistake to make the firebox comment. Yes, Colin, Murray's big 110 is amazing and your Dad made it look very easy to fire. I've stated that here before. BUT he was burning on coal where Bill (and Murray) was/were firing railroad ties. AND I personally believe that Bill had to work the engine harder: the math said the Museum 110 was good for 75 and he pulled a steady 80 which meant no real reserve in the #'s. Your Dad had lots of reserve power pulling those 12 bottoms. Thus, it would certainly be easier to fire. At 120psi, the math on Murray's engine says it should be good for 95hp.

Peter: great comments, well said. If you want, we can discuss how we changed the rules early in the contest, and how I want to modify things a bit for next year to improve on it.

Reeves1665: what I observed was the Case guys were working a whole lot harder to fire their engines. That's my personal observation with only a handful of engines, so I wouldn't call it a "truth", just an observation that I (still) think had enough merit to state (even if I know better).

Oh, a personal thanks for Kevin Milne. We used his dyno and he ran it for every test we did.

--Rob

[G Willikers]

Rob,
Sounds like you had some fun and gave the customers a show. That's what it is all about eh? I hope you will post more about the experience here? It was a good start and should we expect to see this event at next year's show?
Now, if you could just get that compound Abell belted up ........
All the best,
G.