Home Heating Oil & Diesel Fuel

[Jud]

Hello:
I've noticed some discussion about the differences and similarities between home heating oil and diesel fuel. For those who are interested, "home heating oil" is not just one distillate from crude oil. The chemical formulas for heating oil vary. Without considering its Sulphur content, "home heating oil" includes the following combinations of carbon ("C") and Hydrogen ("H"): C14H30 (meaning 14 atoms of carbon with 30 atoms of hydrogen), C15H32, C16H34, C17H36, C18H38, C19H40 and C20H42. Likewise, "diesel fuel" also varies in its chemical formula. The "average" is C12H26; however, the "range" is from C10H26 to C15H32, overlapping with the "lighter" end of the "home heating oil" spectrum. I found this information mostly in WIKPEDIA and thought it was worth repeating here.
Jud

And, I almost forgot to add, it is just because these two distillates are so similar (and, in some cases, identical) that dye is added to "home heating oil" to differentiate it from the taxed "diesel fuel" used in over-the-road and like applications. This practice is the case in the USA and in Europe.
Jud

[Franz©]

Well now there's another reason to not believe a damn thing on Wikipostsomcrap.

Swing on by the rack at the local tank farm and you'll learn real quick #2 Diesel and #2 home heating oil are the same distilate from the same tank. Red die is added at the filpipe entering the tank truck or wagon for untaxed loads.

Then again, I don't post on Wikipostsomcrap, I just buy #2 oil for the last 40 years.

[dieselfreakcjw]

I love the dyed fuel as it tends to make my pickup run well and its a little easier on my wallet Although it is quite illegal........Ah hem by the way you didnt hear this from me

[Jud]

Originally Posted by dieselfreakcjw

I love the dyed fuel as it tends to make my pickup run well and its a little easier on my wallet Although it is quite illegal........Ah hem by the way you didnt hear this from me

ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Nobody heard that from you...
Jud

[Robert Haus]

There's nothing more patriotic than avoiding a tax....that's why the country was founded you know!

...but incase someone's watching, I am sure you were only using that truck on the farm where road taxes wouldn't be applicable anyway.

Reminds me of something I recently heard in the news: A guy had set up his diesel car to burn used vegetable oil (nothing new here) ...but the state, I can't remember which...in an effort to stifle American inventiveness (to bring us in line with the rest of the 3rd world nations, I am sure) .....has decided to assess him a 2000 dollar a year penalty for using a fuel with no road taxes on it!!!

...remember, be responsible, spay or neuter your politicians today.


rh

[Jud]

Well---I have read that IF we move toward more fuel efficient trucks and cars, the "income" from the fuel taxes on gasoline and diesel imposed by the states and the federal government will decline. This will mean that there will be less money in the bank for highways (most of the fuel tax goes into trust funds for highway maintenance) and that the politicians will be forced to come up with a new way to make us all pay for being more efficient. Thus, there is no real incentive to shift more efficient hybrid cars or return to the days of yesteryear when electric trucks were common on delivery routes in the cities. (I can still remember seeing an electric truck (a Franklin, I think) in operation in the 1950s in Boston on the Commonwealth Pier.) There is something wrong with this picture. We can make huge quantities of alcohol in the USA and this is a clean-burning fuel and it would have less of a corrosive impact on our engines. But, to do so, you'd have to convince the government to drop the huge taxes on alcohol distilled for this purpose. A recently televised auto race was run mostly with clean-burning alcohol...but the folks added that "some" gasoline was added to avoid the heavier tax imposed on straight alcohol. This also makes no sense to me. What's the matter with these politicians???
Jud

[Franz©]

The guy who got BUSTED and his little veggie powered truck impounded had been begging for years. He was so smart he was making a decent chunk of change going from fair to fair and show to show peddling his make it yourself home diesel fuel kits. Anybody that smart was certainly smart enough to read the law and post the fueltax bond required. He chose to stick his azz in the taxman's face the same way the "dont pay income tax people" do and he got what he had coming. It's no different that choosing to run without license plates on the truck.

Sticking it to the man is an American tradition. Running just past the edge of the law a time honored tradition, but you don't cry when you get caught and your hand slapped. You just minimize the damage and average it out.

If only the forefathers had listened to the foremothers when they said it might be a good idea to find out what taxation WITH representation would amount to this might be a far different nation today, but they didn't, and we have what we have. Aw hell, lets just be honest enough to admit most of the Founding Fathers were smugglers and crooks.

[Jud]

Originally Posted by Franz©

Well now there's another reason to not believe a damn thing on Wikipostsomcrap.

Swing on by the rack at the local tank farm and you'll learn real quick #2 Diesel and #2 home heating oil are the same distilate from the same tank. Red die is added at the filpipe entering the tank truck or wagon for untaxed loads.

Then again, I don't post on Wikipostsomcrap, I just buy #2 oil for the last 40 years.

Well---let's see, petroleum industry sources, which I'm sure you wouldn't quote either, say that these substances, while virtually the same, are not entirely identical. Diesel has what's called a "cetane" number which describes the ignition quality of the fuel. To be used in a diesel engine, the fuel must meet the "cetane" requirements set by the manufacuturer. Some will tolerate almost anything, others may not. Diesel fuels generally have a cetane number of between 40 to 55. This number represents the fuel's relative ability to be ignited, Petroleum sources say that the number refers to a measure of a fuel's "ignition delay," which is the time from the instant of injection to the instant of combustion.

Lower speed diesels seem tolerant of very low cetane number fuels. Higher speed engines need a fuel with a higher cetane number.

Generally, industry sources I've read say that there are 2 commercial grades of diesel fuel. The first has a cetane number between 40 and 46. This is sometimes called "regular" diesel. Fuel with a cetane rating of between 46 to 50 sometimes is called "premium" diesel. Premium diesel often has additives to lubricate the injection pump and injectors, detergents to clean the pump and the injectors, and water dispursants.

So, from what I have been able to learn, the long and the short of it is that diesel fuel and home heating oil, while very much the same, especially in the C10H26 to C15H32 range, are not entirely identical substances. Home heating oil probably will work in many if not all applications---especially when running a vintage diesel and other lower speed applications. It seems to me that, for higher speed applications, a higher cetane rating would be required along with the additives that go with the higher grade of fuel.

[Franz©]

""It seems to me that, for higher speed applications, a higher cetane rating would be required along with the additives that go with the higher grade of fuel.""

Therein lies the reason for the long known and much used 5 gallon bucket.
Millions of 5 gallon buckets have given their lives carrying ADDITIVES from the refinery to the racking terminal. Back in the 60s & 70s millions of steel buckets gave their lives so Agway could market the much balyhooed Green Diesel fuel they marketed.

Sorry, but the 2000 gallons in the front compartment that will be dropped in the tank at Bubba's Truck Stop as clear taxed Diesel, and the 1800 galons of RED #2 home heating oil in compartment #2 of the trailer came thru the same filler pipe at the rack and the same tank back on the farm. Only the color has been changed to profit various governmental agencys.

[Jud]

Whatever!! It would appear that some folks seem to know all there is to know about this subject so I'll leave it up to them to explain how Cetane is determined and why this issue may be important to old engine owners as well as why the additives (and their exact nature) are needed for many diesel engines. I will also leave it to the expert to explain to the readers why this may be an issue of significant importance to owners of vintage diesels who may be interested in using vegetable oils in their engines. I'll also leave it up to the experts tell us all about No. 1 diesel fuel and how wax is an issue in No. 2 diesel oil. We are indeed very lucky to have such widely versed correspondents. I am told by the manager of the local oil terminal that while the stuff may come thru the same pipe, the computers control all the valves. Perhaps out espert advisor can tell us just how this complex system funtions.

[Jim McIntyre]

So, Franzã , why the argumentative posture? If you go back to the OP’s first post in the thread, you’ll see this statement:

Originally Posted by Jud

...it is just because these two distillates are so similar (and, in some cases, identical) that dye is added to "home heating oil" to differentiate it from the taxed "diesel fuel" used in over-the-road and like applications. This practice is the case in the USA and in Europe.
Jud

[Motormowers]

As far as im concerned its the same basic stuff because it all comes from the same crude oil. It just goes through differant processes to become diesel, then home heating oil,then kerosene,then gasoline after many refinements. All my diesels ran much better on red fuel when I was in a pinch over the years. Its much oilyer and heavyer. Wax has always been a problem in diesel, hell the motor oils of the dark ages were LOADED with it because it came from the same source as fuels did. That why the 40 year old oil you have in the 5S engine that was sitting in a barn since 1959 smells so funny, its the parafin. The diesel we have today doesnt even smell like diesel and looks more like blue kerosene its so thin. Most fuels have more chemicals in them than petroleum for emissions. The result is they have watered down the thermal efficiency of the fuels. Gasoline has major problems with being hygroscopic and ruining fuel systems on small engines from all the moisture it absorbs.

[~Wittes-End~]

I don't know if it's the same guy, but there was a fella here in Illinois that had a levy placed against his home by the IRS, for running vegatable oil or manufacturing bio-diesel (I can't remember which) and not paying taxes on it. I have heard, but can not verify, that legislation has since been passed to allow people to run veggie oil or make bio-diesel to the volume of 2500 gallons a year before having to pay taxes on it. The government wants their share and I imagine the oil companies are proding the government to crack down. After all, if too many people made their own fuel it might take a bite out of all the profits they are making from price gouging the consumers. BTW what is heating oil going for these days? The guy that sells it nearby tells me they both come from his same tank. I didn't ask how much though.

[Motormowers]

When I first got the diesel craze back in the late 70's diesel fuel was MUCH cheaper than gasoline. Think about it. Still should be. There is way more road tax on diesel than gasoline. Not sure if its because of the truckers demand for it. But if so the average consumer shouldnt have to pay what truckers pay.

[MoRo]

Originally Posted by Motormowers

There is way more road tax on diesel than gasoline. Not sure if its because of the truckers demand for it. But if so the average consumer shouldnt have to pay what truckers pay.

I think the taxation varies from state to state. Ours is the same as gasoline. Diesel fuel has been on par, or somewhat higher than gasoline in the past couple of years. No real reason for it either. Diesel is less refined than gasoline, but I think it's trickery to keep folks from buying too many diesels and, therefore, making better mileage, thus burning fewer gallons.

[Gasengin]

I am a Cenex fuel dealer in Montana. I can only speak on the way it is here and not in other parts of the country. We have #1 (winter) and #2 (summer) or a blend (depending on the time of year). If we get a blend the local fuel supply company has to make the blend at the rack (fuel terminal) or the local bulk plant. As far as heating oil and dyed fuel go, they are both exactly the same. The only difference between dyed and clear fuel is the dye is injected as the truck is loaded at the terminal so it is not taxed. If dye is not added the fuel is taxed at the termial. To get a "premium fuel" we have the "Field Master" (dyed) or "Road Master" (clear) additive added to the fuel. Same additive either way, just a difference in the name. Much of what we sell is the premium fuel, but can get it either way. The Field/Road Master has a higher cetane number, better lubricity and fuel system cleaners.

[Jud]

Now maybe we can get somewhere on what esxactly is No. 1 diesel or heating oil. As I understand it, the No. 1 fuel has been processed in such a way as to remove the waxy substances in the oil. Is that corrrect?? And, is No. 1 available year around???
Regards.
Jud

[BTPost]

No. 1 Diesel Fuel is marketed under a number of TITLES, one of which IS,
Jet-A50, which IS Specific to Aviation FAA Specifications, and has been
Filtered to the FAA Spec. Since most of the smaller Distributers only have
room for one or two tanks in their Holding Tank Farm for No. 1
Diesel, they usually keep that Tank as Jet-A50, and then distribute it
as No. 1 Diesel, or No.1 Heating, or Jet-A50 depending on who is buying
and where it is going to be used. The Distributer adds the Dye at the Truck,
leaving the Yard, also depending on if it Road Taxed or not. The Distributer
will also have a few Tanks of No.2 Diesel, from which to distribute that
Grade of fuel to customers, and in Northern Locations will mix in the required
amount of NO.1 Diesel to make the different "Winter Blends" needed for his
customers. Most distributers have Set Formluations for their fuels, that are
given them by their UPStream Supplier, for all this, the same as the Dye's
that are added at the Distributers Site, determined by the Tax Status of the
fuel. This isn't "Rocket Science" but plain old High School Chemistry, and
very standard throught the Industry. The last thing a Distributer wants is
one of his customers to call saying he has Gelled fuel in his tank and fuel
lines because the distributer sent out the wrong Blend. That would be
considered a "Major ScrewUp", and someone would be in "Deep Do Do".

Bruce in alaska

[Randy Hunt]

On the tax issue, Here in Canada we pay around 14 cents per liter, 53 cents per gallon, in Road Tax. Add to that the gst, pst, and the income and property taxes the oil companies pay, Yes it is passed on to the customer.... Most of the doller we now pay for gasoline is Tax...

However, Alternative fuels, like bio diesel, electric cars, ethanol powered cars are not taxed the road tax. And we are encouraged to buy the conversion kits by a tax rebate of the sales tax if we put one on our vehicle..

As for the difference between heating diesel, road diesel, jet a, jet b, etc.. I dont know, but I have run each of these fuels without damage or extra wear or any other issue in each a slow speed diesel, my 99 cummins, my hot water boiler, and a Bell Long ranger jet helicopter....

From what I have heard, the major auto makers are reluctant to introduce more of the european diesel autos due to the poor fuel quality in North america..

The Debate on what pipe the diesel comes out of at the tank farm is equally debated on the other two forums I use. I personally think we should all be concerned with trying to use less of any of it....

The saying we inherit the earth from our ancestors, Is better quoted as " We are borrowing the earth from our children ". And dont you just hate it when your neighbor borrows a tool, and brings it back greasy and worn out!!

Take care..

[Douglas]

A wise man once told me the oil you waste today is the oil you will wish you had tomorrow......

He believed we were better off recycling lube oil and using gasified biomass to run Diesels than actulay burning oil as fuel....

Doug