Help identify this engine please?

[Trevor A Cole]

A friend has this unidentified engine that has us temporarily stonkered! It has some strange features. Of particular note are the following-
1) Very unusual timing chain and sprockets with a combination of 1/2" and 3/4" pitch. (now replaced with common chain and sprockets)
2) Complicated and unusual inlet manifold area with extra valves.
3) Main bearings canted away from the piston.
We have no idea as to the country of origin.

[Trevor A Cole]

Here are more pictures. This engine is in New Zealand. It apparently had an ignitor that seemed to be an orphan!
Thanks
Trevor A Cole

[Samuel.G]

I have to say that is one of the most interesting engines I have ever seen. The inlet manifold has me puzzled, I can see the obvious atmospheric inlet valve on the far right in the photo, but what the other two do I'm not sure. The timing chain also is very unusual. Is it a runner? That chain is weirding me out, I have never seen anything like it! Could the engine be from a homebrew casting kit or something? I live in Manaia, maybe I could drop around sometime and have a look at it? Good luck info hunting!

[Trevor A Cole]

Hi Samuel! Most welcome anytime. Give me a call. Also any overseas engine enthusiasts wanting to visit New Zealand are welcome to come and stay with us and indulge in a guided tour of this lovely country full of amazing stuff!
Trevor

[Pyeper]

Cant see the back of the carb clearly but it looks like a gas carb.

The first poppet valve is the same system as the carburettor on the Lister type D and creats a pressure drop up until a certain point and the second one would open the gas into the manifold while the third would allow that mix to be sucked into the engine. looks similar to the Gas carburettor you can see in some of the very old lister manuals.

unfortunately i do not have an electrictronic copy of the right manual.


Dunno what that engine is

[David M. Lyon]

Is it four cycle? or six cycle?...Hard to tell the size of the two sprockets in the photo....Sort of reminds me of an old steam bed because the mains face away from the cylinder....Sure would like to play with that one for a while and do a little discovery, but New Zealand is a might too far to travel...Even with a fresh mule and ground slide!

[Elden DuRand]

Trevor:

You've definitely got an oddball there. Could it be the bare bones of some production engine that someone used for experiments?

The loose piece of chain sitting on the water jacket looks like bicycle chain! Was that on the engine at one time?

Keep us up to date.

Take care - Elden
http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/

[Andrew Mackey]

The chain you have is a common type used before the 1930s, when 'modern' single link chain came into use. I have several engines that use the 'old style' chain on the mags, one is a Pausin Engineering fire pump (1917 - 5 HP twin cyl), and the other, a 1919 lindsay air compressor.
Andrew

[Trevor A Cole]

The piece of loose chain sitting on the waterjacket in one picture and also photographed separately is indeed the exact same piece of chain that was removed from this engine and along with the sprockets was replaced by the current owner. The oddball chain had viagravitus The chain is a little better than bicycle chain. It takes some sorting in your mind about the pitch diameter of the chain with respect to the chordal length error created by the pitch variation! It is four stroke. If it is an experimental engine or from a home brew kit it must have been a sunday morning effort following the late night saturday!
I would like to see pictures of the Lister carb described by Pyeper and also the weird chain in other applications please Andrew. I have a 1907 White engine that has two inlet valves with the carburettor in between. The first valve has greater tension than the second which is closer to the piston. The carburettor inbetween has no air flow through it! While that is unusual it makes sense. Check out the US patents in the name of Clarence O. White.
Thanks
Trevor

[Bill Geyer]

I think it may be a "half breed", that is a steam engine that was converted to gas. Many companies offered kits for popular engines here in the US.

[M&WJOE]

Trevor, I think Dusty Errickson can help Identify this engine. He has one similar to it I believe. I had some pictures of his, but can`t find them now. Dusty is a regular on this site. I think Dusty`s engine is a Wilson.Good Luck Joe

[Pyeper]

It may just be a Wilson engine, the thought occured to me.

I'll lok through my lister manuals and see if i have the right carb in one of them. I've never seen the gas carb on an engine so i have no photographs.

[Trevor A Cole]

Originally Posted by M&WJOE

Trevor, I think Dusty Errickson can help Identify this engine. He has one similar to it I believe. I had some pictures of his, but can`t find them now. Dusty is a regular on this site. I think Dusty`s engine is a Wilson.Good Luck Joe

Joe,
I cannot find Dusty Errickson in the members list and am very keen to follow up your lead. If you or anyone else can help me find contact details for Dusty I would be most grateful.
Thank you
Trevor

[Dusty]

Trevor...I have seen this engine before or one exactly like it posted in some magazine many years ago while the owner was searching for what its Maker was. I cannot recall the date but many years back. Sorry I do not have an answer for you. It appears that it could be a menagerie of parts added to a engine to keep it running at some point by a clever engineer. it does have some similiarities to the CF Wilson "Monarch" chain-drive engine but then there are other things that are totally different. The sub-base is unlike an Wilson I have ever seen and I have 23 documented engines on my registry worldwide. The flywheels on all Wilson engines had four curved spokes. The "Monarch" scans I have from old factory literature show the chain-drive arrangement on the opposite side as yours and it also has a hot-tube ignition sysytem. Your engine could have had many adaptations by someone just to keep it running.

Sorry i cannot help with a postive ID. Best of luck in your search.

[Dusty]

Here is a photo of a CF Wilson "Monarch" engine and a factory testimonial.

Never before have so many small internal combustion engines been shown at Smithfield as were on view on this occasion. Farmers and other power users are increasingly reorganising the economy to be derived from employing such motors, and we are glad to see that several British firms are well prepared to meet the growing call of a reliable, easily understood, and economical low-powered engine. Messrs. C. F. Wilson & Co., of Old Ford Road, Aberdeen, have vigorously taken up the manufacture of such a motor, this being of 2 ¼ h.p., built on the same lines as their larger engines, whose merits have frequently been brought before our readers. Its overall dimensions are 5 ft. 5 in. by 2 ft. 7 in,: its weight 9 cwt,: and, complete with water vessel, it can be had for fixing down, for Á35. An agent who wanted six, secured them on terms that should have been particularly gratifying. Built on the Otto-cycle principle, it is easily started, managed, and cleaned, and works with common Russian petroleum. The fewness of its working parts is at once apparent; but amongst its most noticeable features are a square-cut steel crankshaft, a steel connecting rod, steel cam and cam shaft, steel valves, extra long brass bearings, and a specially hard cylinder. Farmers in this country have “jumped” at this new motor, which is just the thing for driving chaff-cutting machinery, grinding mills, pulpers, & e., whilst foreign buyers have been quick to practically recognise its merits. Messrs. Wilson have evidently succeeded in producing an engine that is worth having, and are to be commended for the enterprise they have shown in defying outside competition in such motors. A 14 b.h.p. Wilson oil engine, the largest they have exhibited, was also on view; and, concerning this and other standard sizes, the firm handed us a number of testimonials which together form a convincing chorus of praise in favour of the Wilson engine’s suitability for various agricultural and industrial services.

(The Implement And Machinery Review. January 3, 1905).