Type MB Diesel

[Sonoutlaw]

OK Guys I am a newbie here I have a diesel gen set it's a military type MB diesel it was made about 1969 it has a hercules 4 cyl and I need some parts what is a good supplier?????
it is a real cool set it has a arctic heater kit. but the electronics are ancient I removed a small metal tube in the lower control panel and to my horror found a vacuum tube

any help with engine parts would be appreciated


Sonoutlaw

[John Schwiebert]

You are kind of border line here. It is probaly a military version of the DD series engines. If I am guess correctly 198 cubic inch displacement. Now the catch is military engines use military standard parts in many cases. This is true on some of the parts on those engines as well. Jerry Biro down at Newark Ohio is the worlds largest antique Hercules engines parts supplier. He also understands the military versions. I will get his phone number theis evening when I am back if no one posts it before. There is also a new Hercules Engine company. The only work on Military Hercules engines. Now I am fairly sure they do not get into that old of a Hercules. They will refer you to Jerry.

[wwIItrucks]

If the data plates on the enclosure are still there they will tell you who made it,what year, model, voltages, kw and may list some manuals like TM5-6115-???-??
There should also be a FSN or NSN number, If you tell me that number i mite be able to tell you all the military manuals for it. operators,repair,parts.
Jeff

[Sonoutlaw]

Here it is The spec plate reads:

Generator Set Diesel Engine
Trailer Mounted Type MB 5A
Stock # 6115-999-2659
Serial # 710464
HOL-GAR Division
Yrdley Electric Corporation
DSA # 700-71-C-8681

Manufacture Date 10/71

Sorry guys, got home late, it was too late to get the numbers off the spec plate for the diesel engine. I am going to have to hit it with brake clean and a rag to get the numbers. Thanks again, guys.

Sonoutlaw

[EricWood]

The "MB", or "MB-Teens" as they were more commonly known, were the only generators that I am aware of that were built specifically for the US Air Force. Started production in the very early 60's. First miltary generators I worked on in the USAF, they were aging, and beginning to be replaced when I came in. The AF also had there own transfer switch built for them, as many of them ended up being installed as real property back-ups. Switches were made by Lake Shore, to the AF's specs, which again over-engineered the he!! out of them until they became unreliable, and required frequent attention.

Theory was to build them with standardized parts that crossed through the AGE and avionics world, so that in the field you could scrounge parts off of each other. An idea that never worked, and a way over-engineered generator control system on all of them. The MB-5 was the only rare one. I don't recall if the control panel/system looks the exact same on it or not, as the others.

The rest of the "family" is:

MB-19---15kw (Hercules engine)
MB-18---30kw (Hercules engine)
MB-17---60kw (Cummins engine)
MB-16---100kw (Cummins engine)
MB-15---150kw (Cummins engine)

Made under a few different contracts over the years. "First Generation" were all mechancial/hydraulic governor controlled, and cumbersome voltage regulator, relays, and protective devices. "Second Generation" utilized electronic governors, and more solid-state components.

Unfortunately, all that electronics was their Achilles heel. Dam things would shut down for erroneous protective faults, or other bad components quite regularly. Definitely wanted to use all the restraints and screws for the items in the control box, as vibration would tear them up.

If you followed the Tech Order Manuals, kept everything tight, and kept you forever-tweaking Airman buddy out of it, you could get it to be fairly reliable.

eric

[EricWood]

BTW, just thought I'd throw this in.

Three MB-15's on the right, the rest are MEP-series.

These were up at Eielson AFB, AK


eric

[IanR]

"These were up at Eielson AFB, AK"

I drove by there on my way between Ft Greely and Fairbanks back in Dec '06.
Looked like an interesting place. Would have liked to have seen it closer.

[Gunny]

I don't think that's a vacum tube you found, probably a timer. Onan used them well into the 70's. More than likely a preheat timer.

[Sonoutlaw]

I will take a pic of the suspected tube and post it the base it sits in is marked ECandB I kind of assumed it was for emitter collector and base (a transistor) but I have been wrong before by the way this set has no DOD plate it was a Forest service generator it had 800 original hours on it



sonoutlaw

[EricWood]

Sonoutlaw,

If you get around to posting some pictures, can you post some pictures of the overall genset, and the control panel too?

That would be cool

eric

[4star]

hey eric ,,,, you know your mb-teen diesel generators !!!!!
you were right a out that lake shore power, dont forget it had a huge zenode diode in it for the battery charger, those mirco switches engage the starter circuit on the generator when commerical power was interrupted.

hey can yoiu help me find some of those mb-teen diesel generators? i really enjoyed working on those mb -teen generators......

where were your duty stations ????

mine were, tinker a.f.b.,oka,, ramstein a.b ,west germany,, warner robins a.f.b, ga,,

i was sent on a top secret mission to turkey in the late spring of 1981 to turkey,some terrists blew up the off base commerical power station. i was rushed down to c.b.p.o to go over all my medical records and have my documents, and dog tags in order.i was told, to tell any one that ask me where, i was going to tell them, that i was going home on emergency leave, and i was NOT to wear my military uniform, when i was picked up, i was supposed to go to the mac terrminalon at ramstein, but when the driver who picked me up passed the mac terminal, i asked where are you going, he said hahn a.b. when i got there, a major brown came up to me and asked who i was, i showed him my military id and he told me,,airman get in to your military uniform, the hangers right over there. the c-130 hercules, HAD NO U.S.A.F. marking or anyidenifcation numbers on the oval drab plane. when we got in to the air. one of the engines caught fire on the c-130 so we had to land in helicon a.b athens, greece, the sister ship was by 8 hours behind us and it was full as well with mb-teen diesel generators like my plane , so in the morning i caught a ride on that c-130 well needless to say it caught on fire, we landed in incirlick a.b turkey. wow what a ride !! my job was to rebuld and repair every mb-teen diesel generator that i could get my hands on, i was there in turkey for 4 and 1/2 months, i couldn't wait to leave that god forsaken place, nothing but goats, rocks, weeds and stupid turks, i worked 12- 16 hours a day, at night i was refueling the diesel generators with a m- 149 , 1200 gallion tanker, i know your not going to believe this, but the c-141 that i was going back to ramstein on,,,, guess what ,, no it didn't cautch fire,,, the rudder was hit by lighting,,,,,a big chunk was missing and we were trying to land in a cross wind,,, all i could think was well, landstul hospital wasn't far away lololo,, i got back to the n.c.o club sat down and 4 parkbrow beers and left to go to the roman inn for pizzza lololo , it direct accros from my dormitory, what a fricking trip !!!!!!!!!!!! german women,,,,,,, big tits and german beer i was so happy to be home !!!! ,,,,, i was suppose to go to a secret base we had in egypt, but it got cancelled, oh well,,

have a good one

greg

[EricWood]

4Star,

Sounds like it was a most interesting time !?!?

I spent 6 months at the site in Egypt. Its closed and long gone now. Had a 10-engine plant there. Eight EMU-17's (an old DoD designed genset with a 12-71 Detroit turning a 100kw generator at 900 rpm---power plant mentality was the idea. Slow speed/oil scraper/strainers, etc..), and also had two, I don't even remember the number designator anymore , EMU-"twenty-somethings", Supposedly the last two in the Air Force inventory. Had been rebuilt a few times. Used the old Cat 353 6 cylinder, with a big old Woodward UG-8 governor hanging on them. The took turns being the isochronous/lead units. Added the 17's on in droop as needed.

Egyptian plant had three 8-71 Detroit Powered Delco units that ran 380V/50Hz. They operated,and we did the maintenance. Poor guys were conscripts that got paid next to nothing, and literally lived in poverty out there. Had a few by the farm while I was there...they'd steal lengths of the Field Phone wire, the try to "lasso" transformer bushings so they could boil water to make their tea. Too bad no one was there to teach them the difference between primary and secondary feeds! (10kV primary!)

eric

[Sonoutlaw]

Originally Posted by EricWood

Sonoutlaw,

If you get around to posting some pictures, can you post some pictures of the overall genset, and the control panel too?

That would be cool

eric

I will post some pics as soon as my camera returns from vacation with my oldest daughter !!!

Sonoutlaw

[N1148X]

I'm looking at a MB-17 with the following data:

Federal MB17 (Who is "Federal"?)
KW 60/45 (why 2?)
KVA 75/45 (why 2?)
3 phase 4 wire
1800/1500 RPM (why 2?)
200/104 Amps (at what voltage?)
(can you just rewire for any of the folowing?)
120/208
240/416
110/190
220/380
MFG 11/6 (?!)
Hours 927

Besides the questions in parenthesis, how is parts support on these? Are manuals available?
Is $1,000.00 a fair price?

Thanks,
Larry

[EricWood]

Larry,

Let me try to answer your questions first:

"What is Federal?" One of the several contractors that built the MB-Teens for the USAF.

"kw 60/45--why two?" These were 60/50 Hz application gensets.


"200/104 Amps (at what voltage?)
(can you just rewire for any of the folowing?)
120/208
240/416
110/190
220/380"

200/104 amps should've read 208/104 amps--depends if you're setting it up for low or high wye connection (208 or 416)

The voltages correspond like this: 120/208 is the same as 110/190--first one is 60 Hz setting/second is 50 Hz.

Same for the 240/416 and 220 380.

After adjusting speed to 50 Hz, you simply turned the voltage down, and memory is probably not serving me correctly, but I believe you had to move a wire or two inside the control panel. (that may have been just for the special jack it up to 480 volts procedure)

Manuals may be hard to come by--I used to have a couple of MB Tech Orders that were scanned, but the CD met an untimely demise!

Is a $1000 too much? Depends on how important it is for you to have it/what you need it for. Original replacement parts I would think may be very hard to find.

If your goal is to keep it all original (restoration), then maybe not. If you are looking for a good 60 kW generator, then maybe. I would be inclined to ditch the control box and start over with new genset controller and voltage regulation. There was a lot of extra stuff on those things, and you'd be changing all your sensors/making wiring harnesses to convert it (civilian-ize it).

Engine was a Cummins NH4C in those. In that era of production, most likely the General Electric alternator. Should be the hydraulic-governed model, with a Woodward PSG running on a dedicated oil sump. If you decide to get it, and if you are familiar with the procedure, or if not, find someone who is, and set the overhead. Even though it only shows 927 hours presuming its the orginal hour meter, many of those things became inpromptu training aids, or were mal-adjusted by well-intended "I know exactly what's wrong with it"-types. Injectors are set with an inch-pound torque wrench. I mention this because I found more than a few of these "back in the day" that vibrated the whole genset very badly when running. 4-banger is going to vibrate some, but get it out of whack, and it would giggle you to death.

Long-winded, I know, but just my 2 cents worth--hope that helps you some.


eric

[N1148X]

Thanks for the detailed info. The idea that manuals and parts may be difficult/impossible to get is a bit unpleasant, but it hasn't put me off the idea. I think I can get the price down as its been for sale for quite a while and it seems they have no interest except me.

I'm not looking to keep it original...I want it for reliable use.

Is Federal in the generator biz now, or did they just build to spec?

Thanks,
Larry

[B.Ikard]

Originally Posted by EricWood

BTW, just thought I'd throw this in.

Three MB-15's on the right, the rest are MEP-series.

These were up at Eielson AFB, AK


eric

Sounds like we might have crossed paths and not have known it

I was Active AF stationed at Elmendorf 90-95, and was "detailed" to work in the Power Pro/CE overhaul facility for 18 months due to civilian experience. Remember doing a lot of the cooper bessemer heads. Made numerous trips out to Shemya, Galena, etc-knew a lot of the AGE guys up there.

Still Active Duty, attached to a reserve Air Control unit-looking at retirement soon and studying career from here options.

Enough rambling from here, need to do June's 487's

Brent

[EricWood]

Brent,

May be....I was there June '94-'97-354 CES

[EricWood]

Larry,

I tried doing some internet searching and didn't come up with much.

Try googling "Federal Electric Corporation", and look at the hits you'll get. They were a service company created by ITT out in Washington, and they were big into government contracts. (kind of the Brown & Root or Haliburton of their day [my opinion]) If you're real bored, look at some of those and see how much they were in and out of court--must of used a revolving door.

Most of the folks that did the DoD generator building ventured into it. For example, Libby Welding built gensets for a while, as did a company called Fermont.

link to an old contract award notification letter:

http://content.wsulibs.wsu.edu/cdm4/...PTR=1008&REC=2

Link to what looks like a little stink Fermont got into:

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/...24.366-64.html


Also, if you're looking for reliable, then starting over with controls/wiring/sensors/electrical system is the way to go. If you only need one voltage, you could loose the voltage changeover board, mount a small GP box there for putting your connections together and mount a line breaker on it. Lot of work, but an "artistic oppurtunity."

eric

[N1148X]

Eric,

Well, I've done a lot of looking for manuals and so forth, and searching for ITT Federal Electric Corp, etc, but I'm getting nowhere. I seem to find about every name except ITT Federal Electric listed as making gensets for the military. It seems so wierd that this lit is unavailable.

I did go look at the unit and it seems in good condition. Unfortunately the batteries were dead so I couldn't hear it run. The local town was using it for various tasks until a year or so ago when they got a newer unit (says the seller).

The Cummins had what looked like a Bodine gearmotor hanging off the top of the fuel ass'y...is that an electric govenor?

Larry