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Case 65 1/2 scale


Can anyone help me out ? I have a relative of mine who lives in Iowa and has a case 65 1/2 scale...

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  #1  
Old 08-04-2008, 09:56 PM
Colin T. Colin T. is offline
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Question Case 65 1/2 scale

Can anyone help me out ?
I have a relative of mine who lives in Iowa and has a case 65 1/2 scale steam engine tractor and is wanting to sell it because he doesnt play with it anymore. We have know idea what it is worth or where to try and sell it. I know it was built by a steam builder in western kansas who had built lots of them but his name escapes me. I dont know anything about it but I have seen it and it looks to be in great shape. I know I will need to get some pictures of it to really show condition but any ideas? Thanks
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Old 08-04-2008, 10:25 PM
maury maury is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Colin, have him take it to the Portland Ind show coming up in a couple of weeks. I'm sure he will find a lot of interest in it there, and there will be folks who can inform him about the value.


BTW, any one planning to go? I plan to be there

maury
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Old 08-04-2008, 11:10 PM
Robert M Robert M is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Check out the thread, questions for Casemaker on page three, under steam and traction... funny how these are comming to the surface at this time...

Robert M.
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

The builder in Kansas is Tom Terning. I have heard anything from mid teens to low 20's in thousands....all depends on condition.
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:20 PM
LAKnox LAKnox is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin T. View Post
Can anyone help me out ?
I have a relative of mine who lives in Iowa and has a case 65 1/2 scale steam engine tractor and is wanting to sell it because he doesnt play with it anymore. We have know idea what it is worth or where to try and sell it. I know it was built by a steam builder in western kansas who had built lots of them but his name escapes me. I dont know anything about it but I have seen it and it looks to be in great shape. I know I will need to get some pictures of it to really show condition but any ideas? Thanks
How about posting some pics of it? Any close-ups of builder plates, stamps on the boiler, etc. would be especially helpful.

Lyle
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:59 PM
LAKnox LAKnox is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin T. View Post
Can anyone help me out ?
I have a relative of mine who lives in Iowa and has a case 65 1/2 scale steam engine tractor and is wanting to sell it because he doesnt play with it anymore. We have know idea what it is worth or where to try and sell it. I know it was built by a steam builder in western kansas who had built lots of them but his name escapes me. I dont know anything about it but I have seen it and it looks to be in great shape. I know I will need to get some pictures of it to really show condition but any ideas? Thanks
Hi Colin. Any more info on this engine?

Lyle
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Old 08-17-2008, 07:48 PM
Robert M Robert M is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale, the rest of the story...

FYI, last week on wednesday the 13th, I headed off on a trip to look at, and then possibly purchase a 1/2 scale Case. First stop was at the farm of Alvin Tweet, just outside of Ames Iowa. I had planned a four day trip, but learning that Mr Tweat had a Dr. appointment the afternoon of the 14th, I left a day early,and stayed with my son over night in Omaha. This enabled me to be at the Tweet home early thursday morning, allowing them to make there Dr. appointment that afternoon. Upon inspection of the said engine that we are discussing in this thread, I found an engine which had been sorley misrepresented. The flues, as I was told, were to have been in excellant shape, the boiler, cleaned, and the bunkers drained and cleaned. The sad truth, the flues have not been cleaned in years and had at least 1/2 an inch of residue in them. Looking at them from the fill hole on top of the boiler, one could see they were deeply pitted. The clean out plugs in the front of the boiler were of the square headed type, and were rounded off, and appeared not to have been out of the boiler in a good long time. The smoke box was filthy, and when asked if I could remove the inspection hand hole above the fire box door, request was denied. This was to have been a code boiler and it may be, but I could not find the clover leaf, nor the National Board stamping. The bunkers were badly rusted as well, and the entire engine badly neglected.
I file this report to let others know what you will find, should you choose to investigate for yourself. I was just a little unhappy as it extended my trip by a day, made me travel 160 miles out of my way, and saddened me that someone would represent an engine in this manner. By the way the owners had inhearted the engine, and the asking price is $25,000.00 you be the judge.

Robert Matheny
Kearney Ne.
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:06 AM
LAKnox LAKnox is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Thanks for the info, Robert. Did you happen to make them an offer counter to their asking price or was it just too far gone to be worthwhile?

Lyle
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Robert,

Thanks for the review. That is the "Buyer Beware" caveat...don't buy sight unseen...especially at $25,000!

Hopefully, it will find a proper home with a knowledgable restoration.

Beth
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:26 AM
Robert M Robert M is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Laknox, No I did not make them an offer, I was a little to put out to do that, but I did say to them that $15,000.00 would be more fair. If one were to pull the flues out of it and then take some UT readings it may still be an ok boiler but I highly doubt it, it did have some deep pitting and with the clean out plugs having not been out of it, only one could guess what the water leg area may look like. It still has some value, after all, the machine work is done. However it has a boiler under it that the National Board would not approve, even though it may be a code boiler, what I am saying here, is that if in fact you were to build a boiler exactly like this one, it would no longer meet code. It is one of Ternings engines, but along about 1988-89 Tom had to change the barrel design where the boiler tube enters the wagon sheet, I never cared for the look of that boiler as much, however I did buy one from Tom in 1994, perhaps his last engine, and it had that design, and it is a good boiler none the less! One could have a new boiler built, but the one thing that may be needed in changing the engine over to a new boiler would be the possibility of lenghtening of the crankshaft. It would be quite a job to change everything over, but it could be done. I wouldnt want to give anymore than about $12,000.00 for it, I know the work involved.
Beth, One additional thing was that before I left the house I was told the engine could be bought for $20,000.00...
There was a happy ending to all of this, I drove on over to Manhattan Ill. and looked at an engine Mr Ken Kestel had for sale. It was exactly as Mr Kestel had described it, and it now has a new home. A good friend of mine, went with me on the trip and we had a very enjoyable time at the Kestel farm. They have a sweet corn stand and sell some of the best sweet corn one can find, if you live in the area, stop by and see them! youll be glad you did!

Robert M.

Last edited by Robert M; 08-18-2008 at 09:49 AM. Reason: change 99 to 89 and correct spelling
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:02 AM
LAKnox LAKnox is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Man, a guy (or gal, sorry Beth), sure hates to see good iron go that way. You'd almost be better off calling Lloyd for a set of castings and having a new engine built for you so you =know= it's done right. Speaking of Tom Terning, I spoke with him in the late '70's, right after I found out about him from someone while I was at UC Davis. Could have bought a turn-key 1/2 Case for $16,000 at that time. I could have probably swung it, even then, but it would have meant many, many more hours shoveling furrows, tossing irrigation pipes and eating dirt than I wanted to, back then. I guess it goes on the "should-a" shelf, right next to the '38 Chevy Coupe with a twin 4 bbl carb, small-block Hemi that I could have bought for $6,800 back about the same time from my roomie. :-)

Lyle
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:22 PM
GaarScott GaarScott is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

It has been a while since I've been on this side of stack...guess I missed a lot by not nosing around a bit. Anymore news on this engine? Don't let the flues scare you folks. Robert, as you recall, your assessment of Nicholas's engine wasn't very good either, but the UT's proved it to be a good boiler. However, the prior owners did take some life out of the boiler, and sadly, one can't add the missing metal by obnosious...but we can surely slow down the deterioration by good cleaning out and drying of the boiler and using boiler compound to ensure a better longer life. Eventually I will either have to do repairs or replace the boiler...but don't expect to any time soon. Terning and the boiler shops he used didn't do their patrons any service by using 5x5-1/2 pitch in the stayed surface. What little one saves in money in the forefront by increasing the pitch you loose greatly in the long run after some deterioration. A standard 4x4-1/2 pitch boiler on these Terning boilers could deteriorate to about .288" (9/32") before reducing pressure...instead of a .351" (11/32") or less reading to reduce pressure. Nicholas's current reading are just a wee bit above to maintain its current 150psi. The 175psi boilers wouldn't make it with the same readings though. Actually, very little thinning on those 175psi boilers will reduce your pressure...something I took into account when we looked at the engine. But honestly, the Terning’s will perform quite well at 100psi and greater...just not plow like she does now.

Still, $25,000.00 or even $20,000.00 on a boiler as Robert describes does seem a might steep...but I would suggest any potential buyer to take a UT machine with and calculate it out while standing there. Just remember, as long as you can prove it is an A.S.M.E. built boiler, you can use the formulas that it was designed by...if you use the formulas in the N.B.I.C. you won't get even close to the 150 or 175psi ratings. If the boiler was built prior to, I believe 1989 or one or two years later, the stayed surface formula used a hard number of 17,500, as the tensile strength of the boiler plate is 70,000 (factor of safety of four in the formula). Following the presumed 1989 Code addition, the number changed to 19,200 or a factor of safety of 3.5. Can anyone provide the year the code changed the factor of safety in regards to the 70,000 psi tensile strength plate? I’m not sure how any of Terning’s boilers could result a 175psi. I just ran the formula and the result is 171psi…so maybe Terning didn’t ever offer a 175psi, but other later manufactures did…utilizing the same pitch and the later change in the code.

Anyway, to maintain a 150psi reading in Terning’s models with the 5x5-1/2 pitch, you need to maintain a .351 reading in the flat stayed areas. There is another formula for stayed curved areas, which allow a lower UT reading in these areas. I don’t have my code book right handy, so can’t provide that formula or the minimum reading in this area at this time…but maybe will post that information for any possible future buyers of Terning engines. Just something to keep in mind when you’re looking at one.

Tom Terning, his family and employees built a great engine for mass production. Like anything, there is always room for improvement, but for the dollar at the time and with proper maintenance, they will last a very long time. It is too bad that some owners didn’t properly take care of the boilers during their ownership. By Robert’s accounts he posted here, it sounds like there was a second owner that shouldn’t have necessarily have owned one. Once again, it proves that a good boiler can be ruined or nearly ruined if the basics aren’t followed. But in these owners defense, they didn’t necessarily have access to the various steam schools that so many of us have taken part advantage of over the past decade or so or been brought up in the hobby by someone of real knowledge. I believe that if they had been shown the proper way to put an engine up, it is possible that these two engines boilers wouldn’t have or be in the state they currently are. At least I would like to believe that if they had been educated about it, they would have taken better care of their investment…and passion. I would hope so anyway. Let’s just hope that the current owners realize that the engine needs to find a good home…someone that will do their very best to ensure as long of a life without doing too much to the existing boiler…should the UT’s prove it is sound for its current boiler pressure rating…assuming it is a code boiler. If it is a non-code boiler, well, at least in Minnesota, it would still be able to operate…but in some states, the barrel diameter is too great and you wouldn’t be allowed to operate…keep this in mind. Here in Minnesota, as long as you fall under the 2sq. ft. of grate area or under twelve inches inside diameter, either one, you are exempt from a state inspection…but you still need to be safe. Thin is thin boys and girls!

Long story short…I agree mostly with Robert’s assessment and his dollar amount going off of his assessment…I hope that the current owners don’t take offense to the constructive criticism and are more knowledgable about what they have or could have had if it had been properly maintained in its earlier life. That being said, they may want to seriously re-think their selling price. Also, by not allowing someone to remove handholes to inspect the boiler will most likely not result in a sale…most likely, just as Robert indicated, he couldn’t fully determine the boilers condition, and thus, he walked away. Plus, if they sell a boiler to a new owner with the understanding that it is in better condition than it truly is and didn’t allow the perspective buyers access to verify its real state of condition…I would think there could or would be legal ramifications for falsely representing something like this engine in a false pretense…something more to think about. Anyway, I wish the seller the best of luck and hope it finds a good and nurturing home.

Lawrence

Last edited by GaarScott; 08-25-2008 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Changed some of the UT calculations...
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:56 PM
Robert M Robert M is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Lawrence,

Its nice to sit and type all you want, but when you have time, go and look at the engine... yours is a beauty compared to this one. You paid $16,000.00 for the one you bought and Id say that was a very fare price. However, $25,000.00 for theirs is way out of line, and that was what I was trying to establish. I said that $15,000.00 would be more in the ball park and thats what I meant. I wouldnt want to give over $12,000.00 for it because Id put a new boiler under it. I also was stating that what I was told before I left the house, and what was said after I was there were two different conversations. If you think Ive run down or hurt the sale of these folks engine, think again. It is what it is. I was just speaking the truth about the situation.

Robert M.
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:57 AM
GaarScott GaarScott is offline
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Default Re: Case 65 1/2 scale

Robert,

Please take no offense to my above post, I was merely showing what the math would support. Like I said, when we spoke about Joenk's engine, your assessment of it wasn't very kind either and it turned out that it was better than anticipated. The boiler, once the handhole was removed, had piles of hard scale all over the crown sheet...in some cases, about a 1/2" thick. But with lots of power washing and boiler treatment, all or most all of it is gone. At least all of it has been washed out that I can see. Bottom line, it may not look real good, but the UT's will tell the final story. A visual is good and will give you some indicators of its overall condition. But until you UT the boiler, you are only speculating. You felt that Joenk's engine was going to need a new boiler, and eventually it may. But at its present condition, no.

I do and did state that if the boiler is in the condition you state it is then your price seems more realisitic than their asking price. But, bottom line, it is the sellers choice to set their price, even if it is high. I was simply putting math out to give folks a better idea of what it takes to minimally maintain the 150psi rating. If you were offended by that, then I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention.

Lawrence
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