Why the rift?

As most of you know, I am fairly new to this hobby. I am interested in engines and tractors (and cars, airplanes, trains, etc...). There seem to be some folks who are "engine folks" and have no use for "tractor folks" and vice versa. Why is this?

Maybe it is because some peoples thinking processes are not adequate enough to encompass other areas of interest. Maybe it is because, as I once read that, people have to have something to hate and anything they are not interested in is relatively easy to hate. When you come right down to it, I have to say I don't really know.

Even within the old engine group here, there are those who dislike anything to do with a particular brand of engine. John Deere comes to mind for an example. On the other hand there are John Deer advocates that look down on everything else. You can occasionally read these type of comments right here on Harry's Old Engine site.

All of these people tend to forget the admonition that we must either stand together, or we may hang seperately.

It's kind of like the Ford vs. Chevy deal the car guys have. It gives them something to fuss about.

I really cant answer the question any better than that ! I had a 28-50 Hart-Parr and my engines at a show and found it hard to be both places to enjoy them.. The problem being the divided areas we have at shows, Engines one place and Tractors another and Steam yet another... I sold the tractor some time ago just to keep my ducks in one line... Now I have seen true meaness toward the engine people from the steam guys at one show and then it was turned around at another show, it seems someone is the underdog at about any show.. While I may not be into the oxoxoxoxo line of old iron I do appreciate it and respect it's owners ! We all, are into an era of equipment, just not the same line and we do need to play nice at the shows and here on the Stack ! My .02 Randy Hart

Not me!! I like old whiskey, old women, old dogs,old tractors, old engines,old friends,and even fords if there real real old. Like somebody said ( don't sweat the small stuff)

Its like the calender thing, you hardly see any on engines, but you see all kinds of tractor calenders! Maybe they'er jealous of the other guys neat stuff. The people that complain the loudst, would love to have one in thier collection! But I don't care, I'll just watch and enjoy both the engines and tractors.

Hi Tom,

I'm with you on this one,I don't have any problem with the tractor nor steam guys.I get along with them just fine.Like yourself I don't care much for Fords unless they are really,I mean really OLD!

Another engine man,Ed Kinch

The rift between steam rails and steam traction people is an old one, it goes back to at least the teens, speculation is that the rails looked down on the "mud steamer" guys, and branded them as incompetents for a few reasons; 1. If they admitted that the skills were similar it would weaken their collective bargaining power. 2.traction engineers were sometimes recruited as "scab" firemen during labor troubles. and 3, the general bias that all country boys were ignorant yokels.

Now, on to the rifts in modern ag preservation clubs. Early on the old steam threshermen started the whole reunion idea. Stream WAS the reason for the show, and anything else was just an add on. The newer people came in with old gas tractors, and some felt they were getting short shrift because the steam guys were "hogging" all the glory. Some of the old steam guys felt threatened (because they were outnumbered), and tried hard to protect their "turf". In some clubs the steam guys kept the upperhand, in others the "old guard" were pushed out. In many clubs there is (still) an uneasy truce. Somewhere in all this a few fellows started carting in old gasoline farm engines, and a few more and a few more...early on these engine guys were often sorta just stuck in a corner someplace. Which was strike one, against both the steam and tractor guys. Then there is the simple fact that you can't parade a flywheel engine very easily, so the engine guy doesn't get his name announced at the cavalcade...strike two. Then there is the fact that stationary engines aren't usually used for the major club demonstrations, threshing, sawing, etc...strike three.

From the "other side" there is often a perception that the gas engine guys don't help out enough with the work of running of the show (since they can just pack up and leave anytime...and many DON'T stay for the entire show), and they are also unnecessarily zealous about insisting on parking and camping with their displays ("izzit an engine show, or a pickup show?...")

Back in the early days there were more"general" collectors that had a steam engine, a couple nice old tractors, a couple small engines, and would cross over between groups, and help smooth the ruffled feathers, since the prices have gotten so high, most people are now "niche" collectors, so there are more chances for misunderstandings.

So who is right? All of them are, and yet none...these generalizations ARE very much like predjudices. "You are not like me, therefore you are wrong,(inferior, rude, etc)"...By painting with a broad brush (as whatever) all those who don't share your specific interest, you can overlook the fact that there are heroes and a##holes on all sides of the question. And the heroes sometimes have feet of clay, and the... others, their noble moments as well.

Just my 2c, your mileage may vary. Dang I done busted my soapbox....

I am an engine guy myself, but I can't help giving respect to my neighbor who has 12 fully restored Minneapolis Molines. One of which is a 1937 UDLX, restored to full showroom perfection. As an example the radio is perfectly restored, and it cost him 1600.00 to have the guages made new. The tires are the original mold tires that were furnished with the tractor. He has a poster ad with a lady in the photo. He met the lady at a show and she autographed the original poster, she was 85 years old and came to the show to see that tractor. The value of that tractor is about 2 times that of the Callahan we seen on E-Bay. Just try to show disrespect for that majestic part of our history. To each his own, and be glad we are not all the same. Al

I don't have a rift. I think all good shows have a good mixture of all three, tractors, steamers and engines. It seams that which ever group holds the power in the club dictates what is the most important at the show.

But when you throw in a "TRACTOR PULL" Your talking war, in a lot of places. It seems that when there is a tractor pull at a show, this group wants to take over, run, control and spend the money on what ever THEY wish, like a nice new "ELIMINATOR" and a "very large beer tent" and then the rest of us have to beg borrow or steel for any thing else. Take Eau Claire, WI. for the "perfect example!!"

This group has been sitting on a gold mind but the end of there nose is only as far as they can see!! For example they have a BUCKEYE Stationary Steam engine that has been just "LAYING" around now for 20 plus years. I've offered to build a building to house several of my oilfield engines and they just look at me totaly baffled.

I'm done! My blood presure is going up just thinking about it. Thanks Harry! Sincerely, Jeff


Hickory's old engines

I know some things that will CAUSE a rift even if one didn't exist. One of them is an individual OR exhibitor who will neither share what they know or listen to sane advise. I know, in particular, some of the old steam guys could be VERY closed mouth about their expertice with newcomers (read: outsiders). I was very fortunate in having the friendship and shared knowledge of a great steam man here in Wisconsin---John Shroeder of Waupaca, Wisconsin. And not only steam---all iron!! He taught me (and anyone else who would listen) more about steam than I would have/could have learned ANYWHERE else. Sold me some pretty darn good tractors too! I know a fellow who told me that "if it isn't John Deere I walk the other way" and lost all respect for him. That's the kind of narrow mindedness that causes rifts. If someone asks a question, for crying out loud, give them a decent answer!!! I think that's ONE of the reasons THIS board is SO popular!!! Thanks Harry. Craig

When I go to the shows, many times I see rows of tractors lined up, but where are their owners? How can you ask questions about a tractor if nobody is around to claim it? Engine collectors seem to be a different breed. We may wander around to admire what our friends have aquired since last year, or the last show, but usually someone is around to represent the exhibit. I find myself repeating the same things over-and-over, but each time, it is to another fascinated person, who it is new to.

Where are they all? Lessee...

I'm with my traction engine because its where I'm required to be,... Bob is in the kitchen,... Joe is parking cars,... Cindy is taking money at the gate,... Steve is forking bundles into the thresher,... Smitty is running the saw mill,... Audra is keeping an eye on everyone else's kids (who are running wild) to at least make sure they don't derail the train and hurt someone,... Tom is picking up trash,... Chuck is in the tower announcing,... Sam is registering engines in the office and giving out information.... Wendell is up a pole trying to fix a bad speaker,... Rege is selling icecream, when he isn't tryin to find a replacement for someone's busted bolt,... Larry is oiling the big stationary steam engines in that building,...Bill is at home deperately trying to fix the doohickey they broke yesterday so they can demonstrate the exhibit today,... the other Tom is buttonholed with a couple irate exhibitors trying to soothe down ruffled feathers....

There's also a small contingent of fellows (often in green and yellow, or red & white EVERYTHING) with a bottle of blue poly in one hand and a rag in the other that are buffing their tires, and hooting at the guys in the other colored clothes.

And YES, quite sadly, there are also well over a hundred or so guys & gals that are for all intents and purposes MIA until parade/pull time.

***Not to say there aren't several small engine guys who help as much/more to run the show (you know them, they are the ones who only get to play with their toys early in the morning or after dark, or the guy with the really cool oddball engine who brings it to every other show but his home show, simply because he can't be there to watch it.)

Well Jeff I agree with you.... I have Engines, Steam, and Tractors. We tried to bail out Eau Clair a couple times. But attendence is getting less and less every year. Tractor pulling has a lot less followers than it used to have. The fun part is gone and it has became a money game or a contest on how much you can cheat without being noticed. I took a Steam engine to Rice Lake the last couple years simply because they didn't have one available. Hope they get their's going so I can bring a couple engines and help you this year. The word gets out on shows that have constant squabling. People don't bring anything any more. Look how the Edgar show has grown over the last few years. They can hardly find room for stuff anymore....


Kens' Old Engine Page

Sort of reminds you of one of those third world countries where some old guy has 6 ducks,7 goats,2 broken knives,crock full of some unknown mixture to throw in if you marry a snaggle tooth fat babe. They both are so proud,buttons popping. What I am trying to say is,it is all in the way you look at it.When it comes down to it,it is all junk.Just some item the hide and fur man missed.One man's junk ]is another's treasure.The conceit and pride and bashness that some show is a pity. The real beauty of a show,a piece of equipment is the teaching and inspiring of others.I went to a show two weeks ago, some guy had a photo of a truck for sale or trade,when I asked what did he want to trade for,or sale for,he asked if I was a member of that truck club,when I said no,he says, then I would sell this to you. I thought to my self,what a hit this guy would be at a Protologist meeting,none of them have ever seen a perfect one before. Judge not,on either side of isle,please!

Jim1

Boy! I never expected this many responses. I didn't expect a solution to the problem, but at least I have a better idea of why it exists. Thanks to all who responded.

The solution, of course, is for everone to try to see things from the other guy's PoV (Now, now, none of that "But I can't get my head THAT far up my backside" nonsense.") even if they ARE tractor pullers. Its easier to just play politics, even if you know it is self-destructive. Yes, there are "one note samba" shows out there, where everything is JD, or flywheel engines, or Ford Model As, but these are usually held for the collectors, not so much for the public....Fact is, IMO it takes a little of everything to make a really interesting show. (Although I've never seen a truly "all steam" show... do they exist?)

I'll give you this much advice Hal. If you starting a new club. Try hard as hell to get a bylaw that will not let "tractor pulling!" Otherwise it will be a up hill struggle all the way. I'm talking from experience. I to am a tractor collector and at one time had 50 plus tractors and I used to pull. But when you here a John Deere "B" sound like a jet; you know things have gone AMUCK!! Later, Jeff


Hickory's old engines