looking for some line shaft hangers

[Beez]

in the midst of building a woodworking shop that is line shaft driven, I'm short on hangers. should I stick with the babbit or swing over to the new ball bearing. from up here in Canada

[Walky]

Hello Bro

How do you want it to look when you are done?
That is the thing to decide.

Self aligning ball bearings would be the easiest.
But where is the fun in doing it the easy way?

Maybe you could put your babbit hangers out in plain sight and put the ball bearing hangers out of sight.
Or use your babbit hangers as idlers and put the ball bearings on the pulley positions.

Walky

[Andrew Albrecht]

i have a couple for sale i think.

[Beez]

Walky, good Idea, and I have thought of it, but I still, as you said, need some for the floor for the table saw, bandsaw etc. And most likely will end up doing that. As for my old part of the shop has a low ceiling, but the new part will be higher it all depends on where I set this up and of course how many hangers I have. thanks for the reply take care BEEZ

[Beez]

hey Andrew if you are wiling to part with them give me a cost and where its coming from, thanks for the reply and help, take care BEEZ

[Andrew Albrecht]

I'll see what i have in the trailer and let you know.
I am in cincinnati Ohio

[Joel Sanderson]

I have made several hangers and bearings both, when I have not found what I need. It is fairly simple to do, and it looks period correct (if you want it to). I wish I could figure out how to load pictures on here, but I haven't. This is the only picture on my website that shows some bearings I made, but they are welded construction and do not serve as real hangers.

http://sandersoniron.com/JoelWeb%20P...ling%20sys.htm

Anyway, I have taken flat stock (usually 3/8 X 1 1/2) and made hangers: bend a long section into a flat topped A-frame, bent out at the bottom for feet. Then bend a shorter peice to fit inside the A, partway down from the top (forming the cross in the A). Rivit it in place. Tap a hole in the top of the A and the center of the bar you just put in (the cross in the A) for long set screws. These will hold the bearing and allow it to self center.

Now take a thick walled pipe the length you want your bearing to be, and pour babbit for the shaft you want to fit. Drill partway through the top and the bottom of the pipe wall for the set screws to go into. Put the bearing in the A frame, and Wala! you have a self centering line shaft bearing.

If these are to be used all down the line, you will want to split the bearings so they may be taken apart at a later date if needed. Solid ones are fine on countershafts.

Of course, these are not self oiling with rings, but for counter shafts they work fine. However, if you want to use them for continuous duty, even though it is not self oiling, they'll work; instead of using oil, use a grease cup containing #1 1/2 grease. This will pull into the bearing on its own, so all you will have to do is turn the cup down to the grease level every 40 to 50 hours or so (depending on your rpm). My main line is grease lubed babbit, and it has never been a problem for me.

Of course, it's usually best to use old bearings and hangers if they're in good shape. I do not recommend ball bearings. Also, Never use Bronze bearings for Any continuous duty line application. Avoid it even for intermittent duty on a countershaft. You will regret it. Use babbit or cast iron.

[Beez]

Great if you can send a pic or two thanks BEEZ

[Joel Sanderson]

I don't know how here. Go to my website and send me an email; then I can send pictures back to you.

[Peter]

I have hangars but too far away to offer any practical help- I think. Hangars is a general term, but there are two specific types and sizes range from over 1000 pounds to couple ounces bitty litte sizes. This stuff is around, if one is patient.

First type are line shaft hangars, they usually adjust left/right up/down and swivel so a long line will run straight threw multiple hangars. The shafting typically runs 1/16 under. I use 1 15/16 in two 40 foot lenghts. I have 1 7/16 and 1 11/16 matterial on hand. And migth have some extra, but shipping would be very high. The critical feature is the bearing is two piece so a hangar can be serviced in the middle of the line without taking the whole shaft down. There is a variation that can be wall mounted.

Second are countershaft hangars. these are hung in pairs and have little or zero adjustment, usually some degree of swivel. The counter shafts usually include an arm to support a shifter. In some cases the shifter is mounted independently or deleted when an electric motor is used.

So; if you want help then specific shaft diameter and types need be known. I like the idea of making them. I dont agree on the bronze, one experience does not make an accepted rule- although, Joels opinions and experience is well respected. I like babbit too, its wonderful stuff, definately the bearing of choice. Some very smart people like roller bearings, but I dont.

Hangars can be a thing of beauty

[Beez]

Hi Peter, my hangers look like the eiffel tower , 18" high and around12 to 14" at the base. As for the shipping I had a 36" bandsaw shipped from N.J. , a 11' lathe from Mississippi and a tablesaw from Boston. It's hard to get things out here in Western Canada. so if you are able to part with some of your hangers, just E me the cost, the zip I uses is 99114. thanks so much for your reply. BEEZ

[Joel Sanderson]

Thanks for the compliment, Peter. Those are some very beautiful hangers you have pictured. My goodness.

I don't mean to come across as having to have the last word, but I do think I should qualify my bearing statement a wee bit. (I also hope you don't think I'm highjacking your thread, Beez.) When I first started putting in my line shaft in the early 90's, I used bronze bearings. I put in thirteen different bronze bearings for seven different machines before I realized my mistake. Of those thirteen bearings, eight have either been replaced, need to be replaced or give me troubles on a regular basis. These are the Only bearings in the shop that cause problems. I also have made cast iron and babbit bearings, none of which ever have caused a problem--ever.

Keep in mind, the vast majority of my bearings are early 20th century or 19th century originals: cast iron, babbit and roller. I have never had a problem with any these, some of which are 140 years old. I service the bronze bearings just as I do the rest of the shop, but they just do not hold up. Bronze is fine with forced lubrication or intermittant use, but that is not how line shafts run.

Okay, Peter, now you're gonna tell me you have them all through your shop, and they have been doing fine for years. If so, please tell me what you do for them, because I do not want to replace my remaining bearings, most of which are no longer making it to 50 hours. Mine are silicon bronze, grease fed with 1 1/2 grease in cups (with the exception of three, which filled in their grease grooves with bronze putty and now need forced grease from a gun). They range from 320 rpm to 60 rpm on shafts 1 7/16" and larger.

ps. How many old bronze line shaft bearings are out there?

[Beez]

Peter those are very different hangers and they look sweet, i forgot to add to my last note that the babbits are for a 1 and 1/2 inch shaft. So that would be the size I would be looking for, thanks BEEZ
While I'm on here Joel don't weary about the off topic, it will be good to know the answer. BEEZ

[Beez]

Hi Peter if I had your E address I could send you a pic of the hangers that I have. this goes for anyone alse, I'm kind of new to the site and all I know how to do is to post 'replys' dut if you get to my E address then I can send pics. [Don't know how to put pics on this site].

[Peter]

Joel, My experience is limited. I just this year began setup of my line shaft and today I only have one lathe turning over. And that's still not right! I used bronze in two places. So; my opinion is wishful not experienced based. I have bronze on two loose pulleys, one is only spinning for a minute while I bring the line up to speed. it is well oiled. The other might be turning most of the time and a pain to oil. I may leave the belt slack. I am using oil everywhere no grease. What you are saying is babbitt is more forgiving than bronze. Wood dust is not abrasive and a floor mounted counter shaft could have oil added daily.

This is kind of a hijack, I know. But Beez will face these problems too. The reason i went to bronze is in both cases I needed a loose pulley. I never poured babbit, but I could easily machine a bronze bushing and drill and tap for an oil cup. I went with what I knew and keep my project moving.

The Fitchburg steam engine used renewable bronze bearings and oil cups way back to 1870's. That was a well respected engine, so I 'assume' bronze will work if treated right. Kept clean and well oiled. With machinery, like lathes, some used bronze and others used babbit. Both worked. So, I 'assume'. why not a simple shaft?

Beez, I sent a email asking about shaft diameter and if you can repour babbit to change the bearing a size up or down?
I got your PM and sent an email back. You might be using 1 7/16 then? You can post images here too. here is my work in progress.

[Joel Sanderson]

That's what my idea was--they were easy to machine and could be pressed in, machined and so on, without pouring babbit. The thing is, you (we) can press in cast iron sleaves just as easily, and they don't wear out like the bronze. (McMaster has the stock.) I have thought of trying aluminum bronze, but it is not porous like cast iron, so I have a feeling it would not be any better at retaining its lubricant than the silicon bronze--just harder.

Another thing I have done is pour the babbit solid and then drill and bore the hole just as you would a harder bearing. It works fine, and you can make any tolerances you want. Keep your shavings, of course.

Individual machines use bronze all the time. My mill and my lathe both have them, but for the more remote line and counter bearings, they just don't last when others do. I would like to see that steam engine you mention and take a good look at it, because that would be a continuous application without (I assume) force fed oil. Were the bearings overly big for the rpm and load?

I am going to take some pictures today of the hangers I have made and Try to post them tonight. I just updated my Safari, so maybe I can do it now. Don't hold your breath though.

[Peter]

I would like to see that steam engine you mention and take a good look at it

Here are two of my Fitchburg engines, the oil was in a round cup with a wick, later replaced with a reservoir in the bearing cap.

I think what you really want to see is the mill engine, so I scanned a 1912 catalog showing a continuous heavy duty electrical generator, drip oilers and bronze renewable bearings. Every engine had its talking points, these guys boasted all bronze bearings and full parts interchangeability for easy replacement. It helped they had access to some of the best machine tools of the time with Putnam Machine just down river from them.

A good example of Fitchburg running live steam can be seem at the New England Wireless and Steam annual steam up. They are in Rhode Island. Henry Ford used to have several Fitchburgs, at least two were sold. They may still have one more. HFM, I am sure has a Brown Steam Engine, from Fitchburg. Off the top of my head I dont remember what Brown used for bearings. The Brown was based on and similar too the Putnam engine. There will be a Brown under steam in 2 weeks at the show in Kent Ct. I expect to be there, assuming a dry weekend. Thats assuming a lot this year, so we will see.

[Joel Sanderson]

Awe, come on--are you saying my machine tools are at fault and can't make them all propper-like? (Kidding)

You know, I feel like a dummy. My Reid (bigger engine) has bronze bearings too: both wrist pins, and the crank on the charging cylinder. They are split bearings held in place with a wedge and set screw, which was a very common system for steam engines. They have drip oilers, so they have continuous oil. Maybe that's the difference.

Nice engines, Peter.

[Peter]

I am wondering if 1 7/16 (inch & half)is heavy enough for a line shaft in a wood working shop? I have 1 15/16 (two) and using that to drive a 3 inch diameter counter shaft. I am in trouble here and its too late. Moving on to a smaller machine,a planer, to build some experience and confidence. I also have a smaller lathe to bring on line.

Seems wood working like old planers can really consume the horse power. Other issue is every increase in line shaft size is like a pia squared dealing with heavy weights over head. I spent more time moving staging and riggin temp over head chain fall supports than actually bolting and lining hangars and shafts. So, I would really not want to suggest too big either. The inch & half seems nice and light to carry around, moving up to 2 inch was a killer in weight and the 3 inch counter was a major project in itself.

The shop where the 2 inch shafting had run powered a 16 and 18 inch lathe at one time. Those might be a 3-5 hp machines? They had a 9 inch lathe under some 1 and half line shaft. I forget if that was belt driven lathe. That might be a 1 hp machine. I am not sure about that now, because there was also a line of 1 3/4 (minus 1/16). What I do know, is they matched the shafting to the loads.

Just raising another question.

[Joel Sanderson]

Two Handy Formulas:

Horsepower of a shaft = diameter cubed X rpm ÷ 70.
This is for typical line shafting; 1045 would give you a little more. However, one of the limiting factors for what a line will transmit is the ability of the pulley to grip the shaft (hubs slipping) so the higher alloy will not help that. In my experience, to achieve the rated power, it is necessary to have metal hubs in a metal pulley, or at the very least metal hubs in a wooden pulley. PVC hubs are second best.

Horsepower of a pulley and belt = feet per minute ÷ 600 X width in inches.
This is for new horizontal rubber belting and pulleys. Vertical belts deliver about half that. There are different formulas, depending on the book you read, and some have different formulas depending on the belt material. I find this formula is just about right on the money for the SBR belts that I use and are commonly available today. If you are using an old belt, whether leather or rubber, I'd halve the results as for a vertical position (and quarter it for vertical and an old belt). For a belt to pull its rated load, it must be properly broken in, with belt dressing.

Another use of the last formula is to determine the power draw of a machine. If you know the rpm it is to run, simply figure the HP of the driving pulley. Every shop machine I have been around is made with the pulley matching the machine's demands. An exception is a steam engine that belts from its flywheel. I have never known a shop machine to be very far off.

It is important to keep the horsepower of your shafts balanced with the horsepower of the belts going into them. If the driving belt is much over the shaft's rated power, just loosen the belt so it runs with less tension. (This helps take pulse out of the whole system anyway, and it saves wear on your bearings besides.) My main line is 1 3/4 at 240 rpm, giving 18.4 hp. The driving belt delivers 17.5 hp. Another line is 1 7/16 at 240 rpm, giving 10.2 hp. The driving belt delivers 11.8 hp. These are well balanced. On the other hand, my drive belt from the engine room to the first line delivers 32 hp to a shaft that only carries 15.4 hp. This is so that I can run the belt Really loose to keep any engine pulse out of the shop. Since my engine is only 15 hp anyway, the shaft is not underpowered.

This is getting ridiculous. We need to start our own thread. Sorry BEEZ. I hope you don't get grumpy with us. I didn't even photograph the hangers I made, so I'm no use to you at all. I hope you at least find our jabber to be interesting.