IH 650D sleeves

[Lewis Tudor]

hi guys how are you all?!

i have a 650 diesel and suddenly all of the symptoms of a head gasket problem appeared (water out of the exhaust, oil and water mixing, rad becoming pressurized)

i removed the head and found no.4 to be full of water and no.1 was quite coked up (but dry). closer inspection revealed no.4 sleeve is cracked at the top on the steering wheel side and lets in water. around that area it is very pitted and the top of the piston is slightly pitted too.
and so i need some new sleeves for the old gal, the other sleeves seem to be fine but i think it would be good practice to replace all the sleeves!?

i have taken the pistons out and the rings seem to be fine with hardly any play, but if im doing the sleeves i should really do the rings....so i need a full set of rings as well lol

also the big ends are slightly pitted on the crankshaft face so i may need to replace these too (they are the standard size - STD)

do you guys have any advice on removing the sleeves?
where is the best place to buy these parts and does anyone have the demensions of the sleeves? as i cannot get a vernier on the bottom of the sleeve to gauge its thickness

many thanks
lewis

[ehpower2]

my bet you will have to press them out and install the new sleves the same way by pressing them in

[smgussey]

I may be wrong, but I believe the 650D is a dry-sleeved engine. If you have a cracked sleeve that is letting water in, then you have a cracked block as well.

Check with http://www.weberstractorworks.com/ for NOS IH parts as I don't think they are making parts for the W-9/WD9 through 650 series big 4-cylinder engines anymore.

[Lewis Tudor]

yes i did think they were dry sleeves especially going by how thin they looked! what is the best way to fix a cracked block? bearing in mind it will be sleeved and not reli worked

[Mark Schneider]

In my experience of repairing older IHC engines I have found almost without fail that if a dry sleeve shows a crack the block behind it is cracked also. Putting a new sleeve in a cracked bore hole is throwing good money after bad...when the engine gets up to operating temperature the new sleeve will crack in a very short time.
The block can be repaired by double-sleeving the bad bore. The cracked bore needs to be bored out to accept a thick wall sleeve blank of the proper dimensions which is installed with a heavy press fit. The thick wall sleeve is then bored out to accept the standard engine sleeve. The engine will have to be removed and disassembled and taken to a competent machine shop to get this done.
New parts could be a bugger to find. If I remember correctly the early IHC gas start diesel parts got obsoleted when Tenneco bought out IH in the 80's and only sold off remaining dealer stock. The dealers that got the ax during the buyout couldn't return these parts for credit. The dealer that I used to work for ended up with an old boxcar full of new parts he was unable to return for reimbursement.
Be sure to have the cylinder head pressure tested as this series engine was prone to cracking.
Good luck
Mark

[Lewis Tudor]

hiya thanks for the reply and advice, i have looked again and the block is cracked but from what i can see it has not spread to the top of the block (its about an inch down from the top)

my only concern if that i get all this machining done and double-sleeve the bore......the crack is still going to be there! and surely after cycling the engine (expanding and contracting) will this not get bigger and spread to the top of the block?? and so head gasket symptoms will re-appear!??

the only way i no how to stop a crack spreading is to stop drill it. therefore the crack would have to be drilled, grooved out and welded and then machined/bored smooth. i no it is quite brutal but would this be the way to do it?

Lewis

[Brasherman]

Or you can pin it with the magical pins! You might want to ask on the redpower forums, as they are more up on this and even have some examples of the work. Basically you buy the kit and then drill the crack out and put the pins in in sequential order so they overlap. The top part will break off automatically as soon as they reach the correct torque figure. This would be something to look at. Someone on there might even have a block. Webers had some NOS stuff, but not cheap. I think the D335 piston and sleeve set was $1800 or something like that.

[Kelly Tytlandsvik]

You would think there would be plenty of 650 tractors around with the heads off since they were so much trouble. I know where there is four for sure!.......... We found a good head But did take the heads off of 3 others that were boat anchors.

Kelly T

[Mark Schneider]

Your block has cracked in the water jacket which is probably the thinnest part of the block casting. It would be improbable that the crack would migrate through the block deck as the cast iron is quite thick there.
The thick wall sleeve that is pressed in the block should have
enough strength within itself to resist any pressure the crack may put on it.
There are a couple of problem areas in the welded repair/tapered pin scheme. First problem is the location would make it a bearcat of a job to do. If you did succeed in accomplishing it how would you true the bore? No machinist that I know of is going to use his boring bar to knock the high spots off the repair area. As IHC used a light press fit on their dry engine sleeves the bore can't be honed or it will end up too large to support the sleeve. Dressing it with a Dremel tool isn't accurate enough...high spot equals scored piston and low spots will cause hot spots on the new liner because of poor heat transfer.
The worst case scenario is that you may ruin the block with these kind of repairs. While 650D blocks may be plentiful out here in the Great Plains I'm of the opinion that they probably don't litter the landscape in England.
Good luck with your repair.
Mark

[Lewis Tudor]

no there are hardly any 650 over which is why i would like to sort it out but then how far do you go lol

do you guys know how much a good block may cost to buy over there in the states?

why were these engines such trouble??!

lewis

[Kelly Tytlandsvik]

Sorry Lewis

I didn't look at your location! I guess they are probably more abundant here on the prairies. The tractor that we got the usable head off of I bet you could get the rest of the engine for a few hundred but that is a bit of a guess.

We had a Super WDR-9 on the farm which is pretty much the earlier version of the 650 except the R. My dad always preached to us to let the tractor cool down good at the end of the day before we shut it off and we never had any head trouble. Not saying this was the cure but I believe there were surge tanks added to alot of the tractors. Two of the tractors that we had taken the heads off of had a hole tapped and threaded with a hose added from the back of the head to help with circulation. I can't remember where the other end of the hose went to!!! These two tractors were in the same area so may have been a modification done by one dealer and not a IHC thing???????

Kelly T

[smgussey]

Originally Posted by Lewis Tudor

why were these engines such trouble??!

Because they were some of the first diesel engines in a farm tractor application... and people didn't know how to operate them properly.

For everyone that cracked a head, I can count five other people who put thousands and thousands of hours on IHC gas start diesels with no problems whatsoever. Proper care was key.

Warm up well, work 'em hard, and give them plenty of time to cool down.

[jerry merta]

when I done my 650 i also found ashort crack in number 4 , it didn't appear to be causing a coolant leak , so it got a good coating of green loctite and a used set of sleeves and pistons from a TD15 IHC crawler, this gave a 1/8 inch larger bore, and 20 more cubic inchs. You should also run a 5/8 in. hose from rear of head to tstat housing, this eliminates trapped air from rear of the head and block. And last but not least make certain to use the right thermostat with the housing on your head , the wrong tstat will cause poor circulation in the engine. hope this helps.

[Mark Schneider]

The IHC gas start diesels had a major design flaw in the cylinder head department. One would assume that coolant flows through the entire head casting...Not true! There are dry pockets in the head in which no coolant flows. These "dry holes" caused uneven expansion and contraction that eventually lead to the failure of many heads.
Good used cylinder heads for these engines are hard to find. One old farmer I knew gave up trying to find a usable head for his WD-6 and ordered a new one from IH. It probably cost him more than the original tractor did!

Kelly
If those modified heads were cracked I'm guessing the extra port was probably put there to bleed the compression pressure out of the cooling system and probably was plumbed into the top of the radiator or a surge tank of some kind.
Sometimes the pressure with these cracked heads would build so rapidly under a hard pull that the coolant would exit out the radiator like a small geyser!
Mark

[Lewis Tudor]

in all of your experiences where do the heads crack most often?
if i was to drill and tap a hole into the water jacket on the end of the head (no.4 end) and install a hose, the head should cool better? where should i put the other end though....to the stat housing, to the top of the rad or as a drain onto the ground?

when you talk about allowing the head to cool do you mean running a tank of petrol through it and then turning it off or just running at idle on deisel for a longish time? I always turned it back to petrol for a couple of minutes and then turned it off, is this the best way to do it?

also (sorry to keep asking questions but im only young with not that much experience lol) what diameter should the bores be with the sleeves removed? I have not yet removed the sleeves as i am making up a puller at the mo, and i have measured them at about 50thou thick (taken from the broken part of the sleeve) and the inner diameter being around 4.6" (measured from the top of the sleeve).....does this seem right to you guys?

many thanks
Lewis

[FWurth]

I have never known one of these early IH diesel heads to crack when the engine is PROPERLY shut down with only one exception. And that was a low water problem not a design problem with the head. I would venture to say that by and large the majority of damaged heads were the result of being incorrectly shut-down.

[Mark Schneider]

I was installing a tank heater on a WD-6 and for the lack of a decent port for the upper hose decided to drill and tap the center of one of the large threaded core plugs on the right side of head. The nipple was installed, the heater was plumbed and the radiator was refilled. When the heater was plugged in to test the operation I noticed the upper tank heater hose began to stiffen and after about 45 seconds the hose blew off the new nipple I had just installed. I was dumbfounded because A. I had never seen a tank heater act like this before and B. There was NO coolant running out of the head. Further investigation revealed that there was a DRY empty pocket behind the core plug. I assumed that the other three core plugs had the same arrangement behind them.

I understood then why so many of the heads I removed off these tractors were cracked and I lost all faith in the reliability of IH gas start diesels at this point in time.

We scrapped a fair number of these at the small IH dealership I worked for in the late 70's...nearly all had a cracked head and/or block and the repair cost estimate exceeded the value of the tractor. They got traded in and we parted them out.

If this engine design works for you that's great. My experience however has not been so positive.
Mark

[John Schwiebert]

You need to also remember not all those cracks are a problem. A lot of older diesel heads had cracks in them. I worked for an Oliver dealer, they cracked as well. I would worry if they did not crack. It depends on where the cracks are. You need to pressure test the head to be sure. I checked 560 head for a friend of mine several years ago. We found over 20 cracks. The pepole in the class said throw it away. We pressure tested it. No leaks. Value since it did not leak at that time $700. Also I would not be afarid to sleeve the block, bore the sleeve to fit the IH sleeve. We used to do automitive engines that froze and had cracks and no problems. My friend traded in a Perkins with that problem. That is how it was repaired. No problems yet at least 8 years later.

[Kelly Tytlandsvik]

Originally Posted by Lewis Tudor

when you talk about allowing the head to cool do you mean running a tank of petrol through it and then turning it off or just running at idle on deisel for a longish time? I always turned it back to petrol for a couple of minutes and then turned it off, is this the best way to do it?



many thanks
Lewis

We would always just let it idle on diesel for at least 10-15 minutes before we would shut it down. But this was after the tractor had worked all day long too! Also made sure the tractor had plenty of time to warm up before putting it to work.

Kelly T

[John Schwiebert]

Do make sure when you are ready to shut it down on the gas cycle that once you just it off that you flip the handle back to diesel. That closes the small starting valves and if they are left "open" they tend to warp.