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Welding Shop

CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD


I have a 10 hp F.M.Z.tank cooled that had a crack along the entire bottom of the cylinder. So I did...

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  #1  
Old 11-27-2002, 08:57 PM
allen lapage
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Default CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

I have a 10 hp F.M.Z.tank cooled that had a crack along the entire bottom of the cylinder. So I did some homework on what kind of rod to use. two rods that were highly recomended to me were EUTECTIC 4099 & ni-rod with 99% nickle so I purchased both of them, and took the cylinder and rods to a 35 year certifed welder and he could not make either of them stick. The weld would not penatrate and only laid on top like bubble gum. When cooled it would pick right off. So I took it to another pro welder and the results were the same. So I finaly brazed it myself with good results. Has anyone else had a experence like this?
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2002, 09:16 PM
Boots
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

I have welded cast for 30 years and used all kind of so called hi tech rods. on cast you get beter results with brass and if you got to weld it use plain old Lincon 7018 low hydrogen and weld 1/2 inch at a time& peen it lightly as it cools with a small 4 ounce hammer but on old engines brass is the best Boots
  #3  
Old 11-27-2002, 09:33 PM
Kevin Beitz
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

The reason you could not weld it was that the cast had soaked up oil... The heat from the weld turned the oil into gas makeing the weld bubble up... If you would have used ether or some high powered cleaner and then heated the cast with a torch to burn off any gasses it would have welded....
  #4  
Old 11-27-2002, 10:50 PM
Franz
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

Shoulda baked it in Kitty Litter forst to draw the oil out.
  #5  
Old 11-27-2002, 10:57 PM
Marty
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

Kevin, why wouldn't a 35 yr. veteran welder know that ?
  #6  
Old 11-27-2002, 11:09 PM
Kevin Beitz
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

I found that your never to old to learn something new...

Happy Thanksgiving... Everyone....
  #7  
Old 11-27-2002, 11:17 PM
Ken Majeski
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

I have had pretty good luck with welding cast iron with 99% nickel. I grind out the crack well first and if it bubbles up I heat it to drive the oil out. I prefer to preheat slightly and peen the weld as it cools welding no more than 1 inch at a time. The reason for nickel is that it is soft and expands when peened relieving the stress. All welding produces stress. The reason professional welders don't have good luck as they simply don't want to take the time, your old engine is just a pain in the butt to them...
  #8  
Old 11-28-2002, 01:50 AM
Craig
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

There is another nickle rod that I have yet to find a cast material it will not adhere to. It is not machineable and I doubt that peening the weld does any good but I do anyway. The good part is you can at least get a good base to weld with another rod if necessary. It is Eutectic 27. This rod is made especially for welding dirty, oily cast and especially for cracked cast iron boiler sections. I only use it when I have to but it has around a 60k tensile and really works!! Craig
  #9  
Old 11-28-2002, 11:29 AM
smootz
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

Being a "welder" doesn't mean you know everything about joining metal.The majority of "welders" out there are more qualified in one area than another. I know "pipeliners" that can't weld anything but pipe. One friend of mine welds on railcars and brings his hitch work to me because he isn't confident welding steel less than 1" thick. Some "welders" have done no more than run a "mig" on a production line. You can teach a monkey to run a "mig" if you can keep his hair from catching on fire. They know little about stick or gas welding or metal prep.

Doctors all take pre-med but later diversify into their own areas. Lawyers do the same. There are carpenters that can build beautiful furniture and cabinets that cannot build a house.

There are so many processes for a welder to learn and so much metalurgy that no one can be totally proficent at it all. Welding on a production line does nothing to increase skills or knowledge for weld "repairs". My suggestion is to look for a welder that has experience with your particular problem.

P.S. I frequently repair aluminum bell housings,transfer cases and motorcycle cases. It is totally impossible to weld them (because of the oil) without thorough cleaning. There is a local speed shop here that "hot tanks" them for me with good results.

SCOTT
  #10  
Old 11-28-2002, 01:29 PM
Larry Sleznikow
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

I read somewhere that Palco 808 was the best but haven't been able to find anything on it. Larry
  #11  
Old 11-28-2002, 01:47 PM
Randy Hart
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

Allen, A few years ago I was starting to weld some cast iron when my uncle came by to visit.. He had been a bush welder for the timber and mine industry in Canada for 40+ years..

He showed me how to weld cast his way and I have had more luck than ever before with his tips.. Pre heat the metal ( boils out the grease and oil ) and expands the metal.. Keep metal just short of red when welding with nickle rod.. This will require a second person to run the rose bud at times.. Weld and inch long bead or less and as soon as you set aside the stinger beat the heck out of the weld with the point of the chipping hammer and keep the heat on !

After the welding is finished heat and beat the whole area again and bury in dry lime or fine wood ash.. I've had parts in the ash for two days and still warm when I picked the part out to look at it.. The slower the weld cools the better LUCK you will have !

I tend to silver solder the smaller items as the heat required is lower and the solder will sweat in the crack if the part is clean and has a good coat of flux.. Hope this helps.. Randy Hart Ohio
  #12  
Old 11-28-2002, 07:22 PM
allen lapage
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Default Thanks for your input

Thanks for your input of knowledge. First of all the guys that tried to weld it were pipeline welders, like you said they might be good at what they do, but this is not what they normaly do. Second of all I think you might be right on the oil in the cast. When I got this engine the crack was bondoed and painted over. So this engine could of very well sat covered with oil for a long time. Thankyou all for your input, it has tought me a few new tricks. allen
  #13  
Old 11-28-2002, 09:02 PM
Kevin Beitz
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Default One more trick

Use a slag air hammer ( Needle scaler) to peen your weld.... Very fast and does a super job...
  #14  
Old 11-28-2002, 11:42 PM
Randy Hart
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Default Re: One more trick

Kevin, You are right ! and I do use a needle scaler now that I have one.. I didn't mention it because most guys don't have them and before I got mine I used the chipping hammer to do the deed.. A good $$$ needle scaler can lay a nickle weld out to look like the metal around it.. As a matter of fact, I use it to antique my Ignitors after I machine them out of cold roll.. and they look close enough for me.. Randy Hart Ohio
  #15  
Old 11-29-2002, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: One more trick

WANTED : One good needle scaler . Paul
  #16  
Old 11-29-2002, 10:05 AM
Randy Hart
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Default Re: One more trick

Good Morning Paul, I had to buy my scaler when I was in the machine and fabrication business for a customers welding project, It could have no spalls,flux or glass left after stick welding or mig welds. It was a food process part for a milk company. I can't remember the cost now but at the time I thought I was being robbed.. Randy Hart Ohio
  #17  
Old 11-29-2002, 12:01 PM
David M. Lyon
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

I have a fifteen horse Fairbanks tank cooled that was cracked just like that...all the way down the belly of the cylinder. I soaked it good and clean in my hot vat and then cut a "V" grove along the break and "MIG" welded it with CO2 gas and mild steel wire...It is holding fine. I had a few small seaps when it warmed up during the first long run, but I put some powder sealer in the tank and all the leaks stoped...Say what you want about a "MIG" welder, but they are the greatest thing since sliced bread!

David M.
  #18  
Old 11-29-2002, 03:33 PM
Dave Haning
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Default Re: One more trick

Randy, I recently bought a needle scaler to clean up the frame of an old fertilizer cart. A good one can cost anywhere from $150 up. This was a one project need so I went for cheap. Northern Tool Co. has a utility Needl Scaler on page 95 of their 2002 fall catalogue for $39.99. I used the hell out of it and it's still going strong. It's built on a standard air chisel so if it does go belly up all you'd have ro do is screw ir onto another air chisel. Seems like it's going to be a handy item in the old rust business.--Dave--
  #19  
Old 11-29-2002, 04:19 PM
Jim Tremble
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Default Re: One more trick

OK-Guys

Being I have never used a needle scaler, what type of a finnish is left on the metal after using it ????

Is it a practical method to remove rust verses sand or bead blasting ??

I am always trying to find new and faster ways to get the job done.

Thanks,

Jim
  #20  
Old 11-29-2002, 07:30 PM
Ralph Leonard
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Default Re: CAST THAT WOULD NOT WELD

David, I'll be the first to tell you I am not a welder but I've been trying a long time. When I try cast iron I get fusion with the cast metal some places and not others.

I grind the area and the v groove clean, use co2 gas and 35 wire in a Hobart Beta Max 250 welder.

Can you or anyone offer help? I dont know what metal the wire is but the dealer said the area didnt have to be real clean.

I dont want to put the welding shops out of business I just want to fix my head now and then

Ralph in NC
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