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Sleeve or Build Up Piston?


this thread has 17 replies and has been viewed 908 times

 
 
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  #1  
Old 12-25-2002, 09:27 PM
Doug Bauman
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Default Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

I am restoring a FM Type Z Style C - just got the piston out looks like it will take .040 - .050 to remove the worst of the pits in the bore. Should I look at sleeving the block or have the piston build up to fit the oversize bore. If I build up the piston what about rings for an oversize bore??? Any and all advice would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 12-25-2002, 10:06 PM
Ralph Leonard
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Hi Doug,

Have you checked into the cost of sleeving, I understand it's pretty pricey?

I have widened the groove and double ringed in excessive wear engines. For example replace a 1/4 ring with a 1/8 and 3/16 ring half lapped.

There is a posibility of piston slap at higher speeds, but it won't cost much to try this first.

Lets see what the other fellows have to say.

Ralph in NC
  #3  
Old 12-25-2002, 10:15 PM
Mark Congden
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Doug...You might be surprised how good it runs with the pitts left in...I have several engines that are severely pitted...they run fine..But then again I'm cheap ...Mark Congden
  #4  
Old 12-25-2002, 11:13 PM
Craig
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

If you're talking about a few deep pits don't worry about it. If you're talking about a pint-sized piston in a quart-sized hole---sleeve it. Having pistons built up isn't cheap either!! We just had a 1 1/2hp Keller sleeved--cost $170. Craig
  #5  
Old 12-26-2002, 12:16 AM
JohnF in MD
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

I have a 6hp IH M that had a deep groove in the bottom of the cylinder. I cleaned it good with acetone and built it up with jb weld then honed. I took it appart recently to fix a leaking head gasket, it's still holding up. I also have a United that was pitted. I didn't do a thing to it other than a light hone, it's one of my best runners.
  #6  
Old 12-26-2002, 01:05 AM
BobRR
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Hey Craig how about a pict. of that Keller? BobRR
  #7  
Old 12-26-2002, 02:37 AM
Richard W.
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

If the bore is still really straight, then just brake the glase and put new CI rings in it. If the taper is more than .010" then sleeve it.
  #8  
Old 12-26-2002, 06:33 AM
Shane Ball
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Hello Doug - Hone just enough to knock the shine off the cylinder - New rings - Oil the fool out of it and enjoy!! Done this many times with good luck each time and it seems the more you run it after surgery the better it gets! I run my engines with no water in the Hopper after ring surgery untill the cylinder is to hot for the touch and then shut her down! Do this a few times and this seems to speed things up on seating the rings! Good luck! Shane
  #9  
Old 12-26-2002, 11:05 AM
Tom Winland
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

I agree with Mark, I have run several engines with pitted cylinders and they all run great.

Tom Winland Ohio
  #10  
Old 12-26-2002, 12:03 PM
DANIEL DORECE
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Any of you guys ever run one of these engines with pitted cylinders under load? You'll soon find out why grinding the O. D. of the piston and boring and sleeving the cylinder undersize is a good idea.
  #11  
Old 12-26-2002, 12:20 PM
Shane Ball
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Well Daniel - I guess it all depends on whether Doug plans to use this engine to cut fire wood all winter to keep his family warm or just to enjoy it runing at a show!! He could take your advise and end up with to much $$$$ in this type of engine then having to wait a few years to get his $$$ back out of it????? Just trying to help out Doug! Did`nt know the Correct engine Police were on patrol!!!!! Shane
  #12  
Old 12-26-2002, 06:59 PM
Pistonring
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

For show engines that are not being used to make your living on you most likely do not need sleeves. LIGHTLY and I mean lightly hone the bore and install new rings. Preferably use emory cloth by hand only. Go to this page for more information. http://www.dol.net/~dave.reed/tips.htm . Be sure to check ring groove side clearance before going any further. If the side clearance is in spec ( .005" or less) install new rings and see what happens. Give the engine ten hours or so of running time, not necessarily all at once. If the compression is to your liking then you did good. If you still have leakage out the back end then go to plan "B". This may include sleeves, brazing up the piston skirt to make it oversize, sleeving the piston skirt, Installing an oversize piston in aluminum or iron, JB weld, or one of a few other tricks that can be pulled. The cheapest way to start is rings. Then see what else will improve things from there.




piston ring information
  #13  
Old 12-26-2002, 09:26 PM
Jon Rozevink
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Whenever I get an engine that has bad pitting or a worn out cylinder I have it sleaved. Building up the piston is another good option but i have never had it done. JB Weld might work sometimes, but I have bought engines that have had JB in the cylinders and it was coming loose. Another good reason not to JB weld a cylinder is resale value. Who wants to buy an engine fixed that way? My opinion is fix it right the first time.
  #14  
Old 12-26-2002, 09:42 PM
Craig
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Patience Bob!!! LOL We just got skids for it today. Now we can finish painting it, apply the nice KELLER decals Randy A. sent me--FREE--and then take some decent pics and post them in the Gallery. This engine was BLUE, originally, and here's part of the story, also provided by Randy: Could be a Keller built- Hardie (Hudson MI), Dreadnaut (Madison WI), Affiliated (Milwaukee), Eau Claire or believe it or not, maybe even a Keller. (It's as simple as Keller possibly running out of red paint that day, and needing to make a shipment deadline- painted the engine blue. Stuff like that did and still does happen like that in manufacturing of just about anything.) Engine collectors come across odd original variations of paint colors on lots of different brands. Won't be much longer--I promise. Craig
  #15  
Old 12-26-2002, 10:10 PM
Doug Hanneman
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Dave, I restored a basket case Fuller Johnson 2 HP NB. After months of soaking and heating and finally pounding the piston out with a sledge hammer I found the cylinder had severe pitting. If mine would have just had pits here and there and they wouldn't have lined up under all the rings and short circuited them to lose compression I would have left them and tried it as is, but I had an area that was several inched long, a half inch wide and 0.050" deep. More than a few pits I guess. I tried both Belzona and JB Weld to fill the gap(After sweating the cylinder wall with a torch and cleaning it with paint thinner and alcohol to cleaning the oil out of the metal). Neither worked, they both peeled off. I had the cylinder bored and a sleave put in it and it's now like new. It has so much compression now it's hard to turn over, and it runs great. The sleave and labor was $225 but I got the engine very resonable because of the condition it was in and I was still happy with the total finished price.
  #16  
Old 12-26-2002, 10:46 PM
BobRR
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Ok if I have too. thanks Craig. BobRR
  #17  
Old 12-28-2002, 11:46 PM
Doug Bauman
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Thanks to everyone for the help - I like to do things "right" but I have a wife who uses the same checkbook. The FM ZC is certainly not a valuable engine and I have lots of other parts to replace and fix. Most of the pitting is in the upper 2 inches of the cylinder. I am going to hone the cylinder lightly to break the glaze put in new rings and see how she does. I will only be running at shows and will not be working it hard. Thanks again. Doug
  #18  
Old 01-01-2003, 02:23 PM
Elden DuRand
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Default Re: Sleeve or Build Up Piston?

Doug:

I'm jumping in late here.

What is the size of your ZC? If it's the 52, the stock bore is 3-5/8".

I've got a ZC-52 that had about 0.050 skirt clearance when I first put it together. Most of the wear was in the cylinder wall. Finally, even with new rings, I got tired of the smoking. Then there was the irritating sound of piston slap.

I tore it down and, after examining all the options, decided to bore it to 3.750 +.003 and put-in a new piston for an 18 HP Kohler engine. The piston is aluminum and the rings are modern. The wrist pin is the same diameter as that of the ZC-52 and is a LOT harder!

Comparing the Kohler and F-M pistons is a little scary. The Kohler piston is a lot lighter, giving better balance. Strength is not an issue because the stress on the piston in a Kohler engine is much higher.

The compression distance (the distance between the wrist pin and the head of the piston) is slightly less which will give slightly lower compression. I didn't notice any change in performance, except maybe better idle.

Also, the skirt of the Kohler piston is much shorter but, due to the lower speed and longer rod on the F-M, this isn't a factor as long as the engine is NEVER allowed to get low on oil.

The only modification that has to be done after boring is to narrow the small end of the rod by about .250" (1/8" either side) so it will fit between the bosses of he Kohler piston with reasonable clearance. Be sure to re-bush the rod for a good fit to the new pin.

Because the ZC-52 (and larger) engines have a closed crankcase, "only your mechanic will know for sure".

When assembling the ZC-52, you should make sure the little end of the rod is centered in the piston boss. You shift the main bearings to move the crankshaft left or right to center little end of the rod in the piston boss. While you're at it, you should set the end play to 0.015" or so.

I've now run my ZC-52 on the Hoyt-Clagwell butt-buggy for over two years at speeds from idle through full speed and at widely varying loads. After about 500 hours it's doing fine.

Wasn't cheap, though.

Take care - Elden
 


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