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Antique Engine Archives All archived posts from 1999 to 2004 when SmokStak was on EnginAds. This is a read-only board.

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Thermosyphon Cooling Tank


Is 38 inches too much of a rise from the top of the cylinder to a screened cooling tank? This is on...

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  #1  
Old 04-02-2003, 09:27 PM
Terry Otto
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Default Thermosyphon Cooling Tank

Is 38 inches too much of a rise from the top of the cylinder to a screened cooling tank? This is on a 17HP Rusten.(slow running non working engine.) I tried a belted pump but the engine would not warm up. Are there any web sites on thermosyphon cooling?

Thank you Terry
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2003, 11:14 PM
Bill Klein,Pa
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

For thermosyphon to function the top pipe must be below the water level to make a complete loop. A screen cooled tank won't allow thermosyphoning. Could U install a valve before the pump to throttle the flow? Bill Klein
  #3  
Old 04-02-2003, 11:31 PM
Terry Otto
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

I have the bottom of the tank higher than the water level in the block of the engine. Where the water comes out of the engine it has to go up about 38in. to the screen. I'm using a screened tank off of a IH Famous engine.

Thanks Terry
  #4  
Old 04-03-2003, 08:41 AM
Ralph Leonard
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Hi Terry, Read Bill Klein's responce again.

The water must have a closed circuit in order to circulate, Cheers, Ralph in NC
  #5  
Old 04-03-2003, 12:21 PM
Bob Fultz
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

This may be what you are looking for. Go to the Gallery and scroll down to #471 and check out his setup. And yes you can use a screen.
  #6  
Old 04-03-2003, 12:30 PM
laura and brady
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

At the risk of sounding stupid, aren't some screen cooled IHC (Moguls) "thermosyphons" yet have a screen tank? The water barely trickels out if you run them slow; but until the engine is pretty warm nothing comes out!
  #7  
Old 04-03-2003, 01:24 PM
Norm S
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Hey Laura,

Well, a thermosyphon cant be screen cooled because to have a screen cooler you need a pump to pump the water up to the screen. A thermosyphon is a closed system, that is the water cooling tank must allow water to be above the level of the pipe coming from the engine, or the engine cylinder, whichever is higher.

See ya on chat tonite!

Norm
  #8  
Old 04-03-2003, 01:39 PM
Norm S
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Terry,

You can use any kind of tank for your cooling system. If you use a pump you can certainly use a screen cooler. If you do not use a pump you have a thermosyphon system and the water will circulate by convection as it gets warm. If you want a screencooler you must use a pump, thermosyphon cannot "pump" water up to a screen.

You mentioned that you used a pump and your engine did not get warm. Remember that you were circulating water from your cooling tank and that the engine would have to heat up all that water. I had a 15HP Reid and it would run for about 4-5 hours before it would heat all of the 40 gallons in my tank - give it time!

Norm
  #9  
Old 04-03-2003, 01:47 PM
Ken Majeski
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Well, some of the smaller Moguls are in fact screen cooled without a pump. Untill yhe engine reaches 212 degrees nothing happens but when the water starts to boil it burbles up the pipe and runs down the screen. This makes for quick warm up and keeps the engine at a good temperature for burning Kerosene The only big downfall is there is no Hopper to put the bratwursts in to cook them...
  #10  
Old 04-03-2003, 02:01 PM
Ken Majeski
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Notice the screen tank is mounted high so the cylinder is filled with water all the time. Can you see any pump on this one ???? Picture stolen from Harry's Gallery... Credit goes to Patrick Livingstone.




  #11  
Old 04-03-2003, 03:26 PM
David Greenwalt
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Well, maybe I'm just not understanding the terminology. But I have never seen a closed loop system on a tank cooled engine. Every one I have seen, like on the Bessemer sitting here in the yard, has the pipe running higher than the tank, open to the air, and drips back into the tank. If it's open to the air, how can it be a closed system. Now if you are meaning that the water level has to be higher than the spot where the pipe connects at the head, then I know what you are saying, but the pipe itself has to end up higher than the tank to drain back into it. The way you guys are describing it, as I read it, is that the pipe has to enter back into the tank below the water level in the tank, and I've never seen one do that. I think you're explainations if you are talking to one familiar with these systems is adequate, but to a novice may be a little confusing. And I don't see why if you extend the pipe to the outer edge of the tank, seal off the end, drill holes small enough that all the water doesn't drain down the first set of holes, you couldn't have a screen cooled system on a thermosyphon system. If you have proper drainage back into the tank, it's not going to make any difference if it comes out one large hole, or a bunch of smaller holes and over a screen. The only thing the screen does is allow more water surface to be exposed to the air. Believe me, I am not trying to correct you guys, quite the contrary, but at the moment you have me a little confused and I am asking because I want to know and learn. Thank you, David.
  #12  
Old 04-03-2003, 03:58 PM
Ken Majeski
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Hi David: When I sat up my Y Fairbanks I put the pipe back into the tank below the water level. The water will begin to circulate as soon as there is a temperature difference. If the water gets low the water in the engine will get up to 212 degrees and will bubble up the pipe and drip into the tank. Either way as long as the cylinder is covered with water there is not problem with overheating. Many, Many old farm tractors and the model T Ford did not have a water pump. Actually a aftermarket water pump on a Model T often will actually hamper circulation due to the small passages and poor belt system.

If the water level is below the cylinder as in the Famous and Titan engines then a pump is required.... click on the link and go to my Gas Engine page for the Fairbanks Y




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  #13  
Old 04-03-2003, 05:53 PM
Patrick M Livingstone
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Here is another view of the same 4hp Mogul. A friend of mine has a 6hp and it also does not have a water pump. This is how they left the factory and it works fine. The base of the tank is higher than the cylinder so there is always water in there. Once the engine warms up it pushes a lot of water over the screen and it keeps the engine nice and warm to run on kerosene.




  #14  
Old 04-03-2003, 08:50 PM
Terry Otto
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Boy this is a great site! I had the bottom of my tank higher than the cylinder. I guess maybe I didn't let the engine warm up enough. Today I dropped the tank down 6inches and installed a pump.I'm going to try a valve under the tank to restict water flow to the pump. My concern is that the pump might not hold it's prime.If it doesn't work the tank might still be high enough for thermosyphoning without the pump.

Thanks to all. Great comments and suggestions. I'm sure I'm not done experimenting yet! Terry
  #15  
Old 04-04-2003, 05:24 AM
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Paul Spence Paul Spence is offline
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Here it is again, my thermosyphon (open system - no pump) cooled 10HP IHC Mogul. As you can see, the water tank/cooling screen is considerably higher than the cylinder it cools. There is no real thermosyphon going on in the true sense of molecular heat transfer that is obtained in a closed loop system where heated water rises from the top of the cylinder and the cool water from the tank enters the cylinder from the bottom.



How does it work in the Mogul's case? It works well and I'll attempt to tell you how. When the engine is running and under a load, it get's hot. In fact it can reach the temperature of boiling water (212 degrees F, or 100 degrees C) rather quickly(great for a kerosene burning engine). As the water begins to boil it creates steam and forces itself(steam and hot water) up the pipe and out of the holes in the return pipe on top of the screen where it cools itself as it falls back into the tank. Let me tell you, the water is HOT. As this happens, it creates a partial vacuum , in the cylinder proper, which allows a critically ballanced in line horizontal check valve from the bottom of the cooling to partially/momentarily open(weight of the water in the cooling tank pushing on it) allowing cooler water to enter the water jacket around the cylinder. As soon as the cooler water enters the water jacket, it cools the cylinder enough so that it stops steaming, the vacuum is broken and the check valve closes. As the engine heats up again, it goes through the same cycle. Sure is neat to see it in action.

On the Famous lines they "usually" have a water pump that circulates the coolant through the engine up and across the screen(not thermosyphon). I hope this all helps someone out there. Just doing something for others on my "BREAK" at work in Pa. while just trying to have fun on the way through, even in NJ after I get home later on. Paul
  #16  
Old 04-04-2003, 08:43 AM
laura and brady
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

So Really, it's more of a "perculating" effect rather than thermosyphon in the mogul's case...?
  #17  
Old 04-04-2003, 11:56 AM
Mike
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

"Perculator Cooler" , I love it! That's exactly what it is, not a thermal syphon system. Enjoyed reading this thread and learned something I didn't know about perculator cooling systems.
  #18  
Old 04-04-2003, 12:48 PM
Howard Weaver
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

An old gentleman who worked in the oil fields told me that if the cooling system was closed [meaning that the top pipe entered the tank below the water level] it was called "thermosyphen" and if the system used boiling water, steam to push the water up and over the top into the tank it was called "slugging" Not sure he was right but I believed him. I've used both and for displaying the first method takes much longer to heat up everything. Howard
  #19  
Old 04-04-2003, 02:38 PM
John Ledbetter
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

Laura & Brady, I was going to post my thinking on this subject, But I can't top yours!!
  #20  
Old 04-04-2003, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Thermosyphon

That's right. Just like in the old coffee pot we use when we run out of instant. Just percolator-ing along in NJ. Paul
 


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