1920 Model T Coupe

[Ackman]

TRAFFIC SPEED???? Apparently, NONE of you have rode with Craig....in a T or otherwise!!!!! I had the (mis????)-fortune of riding in BOTH T's on Friday with him....
(In all fairness, Craig DOES watch the road & knows what's going on)

[Craig A]

^ That's not even POSSIBLE.......

Chicken! ....... .......

[Rick McKay]

Ken and Roger....and Craig,

I wouldn't hold it against anyone to trailer a T up here to God's country, then drive it to enjoy the sights!

When do you guys want to come up....September sound good?

I was just hard a$$ing the "new" T guy a little.

Ken, I will be camping with the Auto-Kamp Camper at Iola in a vending site.....not so far to carry my purchases back to camp that way. There is several acres of visitor camping down the road from the swap area.

Rick

[Craig A]

I haven't "done" car show for several years........maybe that should change.......

[Craig A]

I got the title for the T today. Apparently in Michigan they don't ask for the VIN for collector cars such as this?.......
No VIN number is present on the title but the year of manufacture is.
BUT.......I need the VIN (engine number) to license this car in Wisconsin so I found the engine number which makes this car a 1923 model, March of 1923 to be exact.......
I don't particularly CARE that it's a 1923 model but the lady paid an "appraiser" $400 to check out and rate this vehicle to wit:

Grading scale of A to E with A being the best and E being the worst

Exterior Finish = B-
Body = B/B-
Trim = C
Glass = B/A
Interior = B/ C+
Wheels = C-
Tires = D
Underbody = C
Underhood = C
Top & Side Curtains = B+

This Vehicle appears to be well kept, well preserved original 1919 convertible. In it's current condition it would make a very presentable "parade quality" vehicle, with no work really being necessary at this time.

Wouldn't YOU think the very first thing one would do is verify the year of manufacture?.......
It has 1923 features which appear to be original and suggest the engine was not replaced.

I hope I don't get any crap from the Wisconsin DMV as the Michigan title states 1919.......

[Steve Kunz]

Craig, if I remember right there is a serial no. on the frame also, it is on the top of the frame on the passenger side. But I have heard depending on where it happens to be stamped you have to take the body off to see it.

Steve

[Beth V]

My '29 Model A is titled as a '30 because of the engine. That came out of Ohio. I really don't care.....but sure makes for some fun conversation when you tell folks that it is titled as a '30, is a '29 and has a '28 license plate!

Beth

[Rick McKay]

Ford didn't start stamping the number on the frames until late '25 or early '26.

The car looks like it could be a '19....I think a '23 would have a one man top and the slant windshield. You should post a few pic's over on the mtfca forum, the boys over there will nail it down for sure.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1307624840

There's a chance I might have a '19 block, if it turns out you need one.

My first T came with a '17 title, and it's more like a '23.

Rick

[Ken Majeski]

A 23 would have a sloping windshield like my and Jakes roadster. Many times engines have been changed in T's, I actually changed mine as I liked the extra bolts on the 26 block. I have the original in the shed.

I bought mine in Minnesota and it has all the features of a late 23 but is titled as a 22But the numbers did match for the VIN Check. So as far as the state goes it's a 22.

I don't know if Wis. requires a VIN check anymore but I do know of cases where people have affixed a Brass plate with whatever number they need to the firewall.

I don't believe Michigan is too fussy on T's so you might be able to get a new title for your number or as a last ditch effort maybe Broadway title if they are still around. ?

[Roger Byrne]

Craig, there will be no frame number on your car. Ford didn't start stamping frame numbers until the end of 1925 when they changed to the 1926 body style. At that time, they stamped the number (which was the same # as the engine) on the top frame rail, near the front body mount. Steve is right that you would have to do some disassemble to read the frame number. . . if you had one. . . which your Model Ts don't.

I see Rick posted the same information while I was writing this and I agree with his evaluation of the model year of your car. As Ken, Rick and Beth all stated, many of these cars don't have their original engines so you can't always date a car by the engine number.

This may get me in hot water, but I'm going to make a comment about these car appraiser that are running around, they are some of the biggest rip-off artist there are. Many don't have a clue what they are talking about or have any background in what they are evaluating. If someone needs information, it's best to contact the national organizations dealing with antique cars and get references to QUALIFIED appraisers and local groups that can give you the information you need.

[Craig A]

Thanks for all the replies.......
This T has a dash mounted pressed steel steering column support which wasn't standard till 1922(ish), is definitely an original piece but apparently added later.
I checked a Model T year-by-year book and found, as Ken pointed out, the slanted dash is THE 1923 hallmark which this T does not have so I guess it IS a 1919 model.
I doubt the state of Wisconsin will do a VIN (engine number) check anyway so I'll just go ahead and git 'er dun.......

Roger, I FULLY agree with you about "SO CALLED" appraisers.......

[OTTO-Sawyer]

With so many millions of them made with the country's first mass produced, Interchangeable Parts, there are likely thousands of them on the road yet that were pieced together and rebuilt early in their lives after minor accidents (or major ones), or even built up from salvage parts in the 1920s or early 30s.

With the parts still being relatively new yet at the time, and well seasoned since then, there are probably a lot of them out there that have parts from several years mixed together that were titled or re-titled by whatever year they chose to call them at the time, and 80-90 years later the parts all aged together so it's hard to tell what's actually original to the car and what may be off a year or two.

The DMV may not agree with that, but with no serial numbers on the frames, and engines having been so commonly replaced, what's a guy to do.

There are still enough parts out there that a guy could still build a complete T using all original parts. If you build one in 2011 using a mixture of parts, do you title it as a brand new 2011 or call it whatever year it most closely resembles ???

[Craig A]

I just found this video at the mtfca site.......



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld-BaHeSET0

By the way. Wisconsin used the Michigan VIN, MICH75724, as THE VIN on the '19 touring car.......but they got the body style wrong.....4DR SEDAN....... ......and added a note on the title: PREVIOUSLY TITLED IN: MI

[Ken Majeski]

Any Vehicle I have registered lately from out of state they have added the note previously registered from whatever state it came from. In my case New Mexico, Oklahoma, Minnesota ect.

I will look at my One door T title Saturday and see what is is described as and can ask Mert what his Touring is described as.

Mert and I may have registered our T's before they started adding the note of where it came from. I know we needed a VIN Check as it was some years ago.

[Craig A]

I forgot to say in my previous post......I provided the engine number which they accepted as the VIN for the coupe.
Apparently the coupe has been a Wisconsin resident since new so maybe that's the difference.
I just thought it odd they wouldn't do the same for the touring car.......then again.......as the engine was replaced once there's nothing to say it won't ever be replaced again, though not by me.

[Ken Majeski]

As far as I know Wisconsin used the engine number as the Vin untill sometime in 1954. Then they started putting actual VIN number on vehicles and they started using them.

My 23 Roadster title was issued in 1994, Under Body Style it says RDR under Vehicle type it says auto. Interesting thing is the car is actually a 23 and the title says 22 and the numbers did match. It does say previously titled in MN.

Now my 23 TT truck is listed as a 23 and body style is Blank and vehicle type is Truk, Yup Truk. Title date is 1997 and previously titled in MN. Numbers did match and still do.

I would geuss maybe your title was lost and they got a new one in Michigan and issued a VIN because they couldn't find one. Maybe Rick can shed more light on this ?

I think there are some T's around with No engine numbers as the block has been replaced.

What does the Odometer place say? Even Old Bumpy my 92 Dodge Cummins says This vehicle is Exempt from odometer disclosure.

[Craig A]

The coupe title states EXEMPT and the touring title boxes are both blank.......

[Craig A]

I nearly FAINTED just now! .......
My car dude mechanic drove into my yard with the touring car! (THUD) after doing a first class valve job.
Talk about a working fool (but a damn good fool!) as I drove it out to his place only Sunday afternoon!
It's running like a TOP and ON THE MAG TOO!

At the MTFCA forum I asked about a "clunk" near the rear of the transmission as there was one.
Based on what I read at MTFCA and after chatting with Roger Byrne about some other stuff I let car dude know what to look for.
There was an extra gasket I suspected was doing the dirty work and the clunk is now GONE! (even BIGGER )

Can y'all SEE the smile on my face?

[Ackman]

Well, isn't that SPECIAL???.......why it's EXTRA SPECIAL!!!

[Roger Byrne]

I'm kinda getting the impression that Craig is enjoying his Model Ts.
I'm not surprised, I know lots of guys the are into steam or old gas tractors that are also Model T owners. Model Ts and steel wheeled old iron seems to naturally go together. Many may not be as "enthusiastic" as Craig, Gary Y., Ken M. and myself, but there is getting to be more and more of us every day.