welder/brazer

Hi guys, last week I picked up a small portable welding unit. When I get back on my feet I plan on teaching myself to weld. I know this won't do heavy stuff, but I figure it's a start. My question is has anyone brazed with a stick welder? This unit is adjustable from 20-70 amps, will weld steel up to 1/8 thickness using 1/32nd rods. It is marked Arc welder/brazer and just plugs into a 110 outlet. I don't know about the brazing. The guys I know that do brazing use a torch and rod and have never seen brazing done like you would with an arc welder. I had it in mind when I got it it might be good for brazing cast parts where you just want to plug a cracked hopper or braze small cast parts that don't have a lot of stress on them. I also thought it might be good for making gas tanks as I have bunches of scrap sheet metal from the plant and I figured this low amp welder would have less chance of me burning a hole through it. Any info on this unit and what I can do with it as a beginner is appreciated. David.

Hi Dave, I think to braze with an outfit like you have, you would need to use a Carbon Arc Torch. Sears used to sell them (but no more). I picked oune up at a flea (flee) market several years ago for 5 bucks. It,s all kind of handy for heating metal for bending, brazing, or whatever.

Good luck with your up comming surgery. Hope you are well soon. Pete

The big thing you'll have to worry about on those cheapy units is to watch your duty cycle. Many of them are only rated about 10-15% on their highest settings (for every 30 seconds of welding you'll have to wait about 5 minutes for the windings to cool. OK for learning, but seriously UNcool for actually trying to get anything done.

70 amps max pretty much means you'll be stuck using those more expensive tiny diameter rods for everything - and even then some alloys will be running "cold" (so-so penetration, flux inclusions, "sticking", etc - generally you'll want to run about 75-80% of the rod's recommended amp range for ease of use) As for welding anything over 3/32" you'll have to go to a multipass weld, which means even MORE waiting on that duty cycle. I'm only bringing all this up because the shortcomings of the machine won't make learning easier.

OTOH, if you only weld ornamental stuff, or need it maybe once a year, its probably an OK machine. Somebody once told me that the DC ones work pretty good hooked to your spray gun for "dustless" painting, too.

Anyway, good luck!

David, I have to agree with just about everything Allen has stated except that it is not a good machine to learn on. My experience with a 110V arc welder is that they are at best a joke. The number one problem is the rod sticking to the piece your TRYING to weld. The next big problem is as Allen mentioned the low duty cycle. It's a time waster at best. It will however produce unspeakable four letter words! If you want to go with a small welder, invest in a 110V mig wire welder. They say one can weld up to 3/32". I have built my third tandem axle trailer ( and about to embark on my fourth ) from scratch using nothing more than my 110V Lincoln wire welder and haul as much as four tons down the highway without concern. One can also just about weld aluminum foil with it. Personally I prefer using gas rather than flux wire. As for brazing with an arc welder, I don't believe thats possible.

Hi David... I like You have never done this with a Stick Welder, But I DO 'Braze" with Ac. Torch at Work and that Type will be hard to beat, When a person is Experienced with this Type, Beautiful Work will result! Later, Larry

I have had good luck using the tig machine on thin cross sections with the brassronze filler. Remember it needs to be CLEAN to work. I never use sand blasting, glass beading or Alum oxide disc. when cleaning the parts as I don't want to interduce any more foreign parts into the weldment. Try it

Hi Dave. I'll give you credit for taking a crack at the welding stuff but I'm afraid, with the outfit you have, you'll have lots of problems. Number one is, the open circuit voltage is so low you'll have a hell of a time starting an arc with a cold rod. You'll be limited to 3/32" rods and I would recommend 6011 3/32 rods. They are the best for dirty parts with poor fitups and just can't be beat for maintenance welding. They even work well on many cast irons. We use more of them than any other rod. Bear in mind, too, that some brands of these rods aren't worth carrying out of the store. Stick with Airco or the Lincoln equivalent. Craig

Thanks for the info guys, I'll print these out and keep in my notebook. I can also see I'm gonna have to get on the net and learn some things so I will know when I ask questions next what some of you guys are talking about. Thanks for the well wishing on my back surgery Pete, I go in Wednesday and the doc says he should have me back to work by the 1st of August. He even says after a year and the bone starts growing around the cage he's gonna put around my spine I can go back to playing softball if I want. Don't look like any shows this year, so if any of you guys are passing thru my area, you're gonna have to stop by so I can see some engines. David.

I said it was OK to learn on because of the fact that he already owns it.

The name brand 110v machines may be OK, but the grey market stuff I've seen is almost useless. I recently looked at several low priced 110v wire feed units and their published numbers were so far out of balance (amps vs feedrate) that if they produce any kind of weld at all it must be from dumb luck more than anything else.

Unfortunately not everybody can afford those pretty new red or blue machines (If you ever tried the top of the line Millers (square wave ac, high frequency ez start, computer optimized amperage, etc) you'd be hooked - they can almost make a bum look like a pro) OTOH there are some guys out there who CAN do everything wrong, use the worst junk on the market, and STILL turn out fantastic work.

David, we all wish you the best of luck and speedy recovery with your back problems.Ever wonder why you find them little make beleve welders in flea markets? I put mine I bought in the dumpster before I had a corinary!! D. Smith

Yeah, I knew when I got it doing big jobs was out of the question. It was cheap and what interested me was the brazing part so I picked it up, didn't want to find out later it worked great for brazing and then it not be there. Who knows, it may do a real good job in the electrolysis process, I'm not sure but I think I read on one of the posts that someone had used a welder for that purpose. David.

WHOA there David, you have an AC welder, and electrolosys requires DC, so you can erase that idea from the chalkboard. One thing those AC carbon arc torches are good for is loosening stuck rusty nuts. You put the 2 carbons on opposite sides of the nut, and then turn the welder on. It heats the nut well, and the vibration from AC helps loosen the nut. Them little machines are also almost useful for thawing frozen pipes, assuming they have a high enough duty cycle.

Oops, now that you mention it, I think it was a battery charger I was thinking of. Never said my memory was the best in the world. Don't worry, I wouldn't of killed myself, before I tried it I would of asked on here, and I would have been set straight quick enough. Like you just did. Thanks Franz, David.

I would probably agree with most of the previous responses on this subject. Typically the higher the price the better the product, having said that, GO FOR IT, we all have to start somewhere. I have not done any carbon-arc heating/brazing for a number of years. If you can locate a head and proper leads I do know the rods are still available. Due to the duty cycle of your unit I would anticipate only lighter brazing will be possible. Brazing of heavier castings usually requires pre and post heating. If my fingers are working right there will be a link to some info on welding. Some of it is a little heavy reading, but will give you soomthing to read while your recovering. A co-worker had a very simular operation about 3 years ago, and he is doing everything he ever did. Good Luck - Steve




machinist org - welding

Dave, I'm going to come to the aid of the little welder. Call it beginners luck, or just a fluke. I broke the crankshaft on my yard sale 4 cylinder air compressor. It was designed to run at about 30 psi. I had it cranked up to about 90 psi. Yes it broke. With the little welder and Sears 3/32" weld rod. I fused the two halves together with many passes. Wire brushed after each pass. The alignment suffered, but after a little "run in" it worked for another year. For the record, Both the welder and the air compressor have been replace with bigger,better units. Good luck, and have fun. Dave in Holt.

Cheap welders will turn most first time welders away... I do my share of welding and some of the cheap welders are very hard to use and they do a very poor job... On the other hand a genset welder will allmost weld with out your help...

Years ago, I did a litle brazing with a stick welder. The owner of the machine, a friend's dad, did a lot of brazing with it.

I believe it is called carbon arc brazing. Instead of a torch flame, it used an arc between two carbon electrodes that mounted in a holder that was kind of bulky and had both of the welding leads hooked to it as well. As cumbersome as it was, it did work quite well, but much less convenient than an oxy-acetylene torch. This was no light duty device, though.

I saw a small device at a garage sale that was labled as a welder brazer and it was small as a large cigar box, plugged into the wall socket and used smallish leads. At the time, I passed it by because I have industrial-type stuff. The entire set-up could have easily fit inside a briefcase. Perhaps this is what David's device ressembles ???

Just because it is small, doesn't mean its without value. Often, the larger set-ups are too large. I obtained a VERY small jeweler's oxy-acetylene torch and boy is it nice for putting a high temperature in a very small area. Even the smallest tip on my Victor welding torch is a monster compared to this jeweler's torch.

The small rod size (1/32") that your unit uses is smaller than any rod I have ever used. I doubt that you'd be able to work on any significantly sized castings with a unit that small, if it works at all, but who knows...

It is easy to find a way to weld or braze fairly large items, but that ain't neccessarily the case for tiny items. This might be where David's item might be useful. Just an idea.....

Hi Kid, a little bigger than a cigar box, but not much. I was mostly curious about being able to braze with it. As for being disappointed with it as some have said, I doubt it because I understand it's limitations. It's when you go beyond what a piece of equipment is designed for that you get in trouble, and that goes for anything. Now I WOULD be disappointed if I went and spent 100's of dollars on a welder and found out it wasn't something I was suited for and it just sat in the shop collecting dust. I got some sheet metal, small angle, and some Walker tubing I'll play with and go from there. David.

WoW , I had one of those . It was my first welder . You wont be able to do big stuff but it will work. It came as a kit with 1/4 inch carbons for brazing sears used to have them in the store. I liked the variable lever on top cause you could dial it in on the thin stuff.

Good Luck

ED

Hi Dave; I don't know about brazing with one of these econoboxes but about 20 years ago their was A 3/32 rod available called Scratch Start. It worked great for sheet metal. You might want to see if your local welding supplies store can still get it. It is great stuff to learn with because it is so easy to start an arc .

DAN