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New User - Harold13 - Steam Questions


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  #1  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:10:29 PM
Harold13 Harold13 is offline
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Default New User - Harold13 - Steam Questions

Hello Bill K,

I am harold13 (Harold) New member specifically so that I can ask some questions about "TURBO" steam.

As I understand the concept of "turbo" broken down to it's basic components it could be stated that a turbo system feeds some of it's output energy to work with the input energy.

when considering that steam engines do not turn due to "HEAT", they turn due to "PRESSURE" it would make more sense to re-use the exhuast heat rather than the exhaust pressure.

In my system I recover a great deal of the exhaust energy (heat) and little of the exhaust pressure. the exhaust from a burning gas combined with the exhaust steam creates a high humidity high temp mixture that is readily absorbed into a copper feedwater tube.

In theory this system would create feed water of temperatures close to that of the boiler. in this case the water in the tube may want to boil. have you heard of a system that is capable of introducing water at a higher temperature than the water in the boiler?

Have you ever seen a steam engine that was gravity fed with a series of valves rather than a pump?

This series of valves is one of the innovations I have added to my new steam boiler (the engine efficiency/configuration does not matter ).

Please let me know if you would be interested in discussing this project by phone (314-680-6164)

Thank you for your time.
Harold Westrich
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Old 05-17-2011, 03:45:55 PM
oldproff oldproff is offline
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

thanks not into steam
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:54:11 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold13 View Post
... when considering that steam engines do not turn due to "HEAT", they turn due to "PRESSURE" it would make more sense to re-use the exhuast heat rather than the exhaust pressure.
...In theory this system would create feed water of temperatures close to that of the boiler. in this case the water in the tube may want to boil. have you heard of a system that is capable of introducing water at a higher temperature than the water in the boiler?

Have you ever seen a steam engine that was gravity fed with a series of valves rather than a pump?

This series of valves is one of the innovations I have added to my new steam boiler (the engine efficiency/configuration does not matter ).

Thank you for your time.
Harold Westrich
Harold:.... let me start by saying welcome aboard.... and please take this with a grain of salt, and as an educational experience instead of as a personal attack, but.....

ALL Engines run on Pressure ! (Except for vacuum engines, but they run on atmospheric pressure on the other side of the piston). The Heat causes Expansion, which causes Pressure! Gas & diesel engines make the pressure IN the cylinder while steam engines make the pressure in the boiler and plumb it into the the cylinder.

Considering the fact that the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point, you're not going to get a higher temperature in your feedwater than what is in the boiler (at high pressure & much higher boiling point), unless your feedwater supply is pressurized even higher than the boiler pressure.

To use gravity feed alone to overcome the boiler pressure you would need a water column so high it would disappear in the clouds.... unless you're talking a low pressure (like 5-7lb) boiler for home heating. By a series of valves instead of a pump, I would have to assume that you're talking about an Injector valve which creates suction in the feed line and will draw water up into a boiler so no gravity is required.

I only claim to know the basics of steam (maybe a little more), so I'm sure the 'true' steam users will have more to say about that with more facts & figures to back it all up.

And again, I didn't intend this as a personal attack on you, just a couple corrections. If you want to learn about steam, you've come to the right place, as there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this forum that can be of great help to you.
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:16:57 AM
outlawenterprises outlawenterprises is offline
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

Otto,

I think you have done a great job of explaining the basics. I dont know who the Harold guy is but it looks like a plant or maybe someone trying some backdoor advertising. I notice he has posted the same exact phrases in a couple different threads.

That, and the phone number he posts is a St Louis cell number but his profile says he is from CA? Those arent exactly close neighborhoods.

I could be wrong or maybe my tinfoil hat isnt blocking out all the CIA signals, but to quote my good friend from deep south Alabama "Sumpin aint quite right"...

Chris
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Old 05-23-2011, 08:44:50 AM
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

did not strike me quite right either. Bill K
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:23:24 AM
Harry Harry is offline
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Default Re: New User - Harold13

Looking in on Harold13... information on the web through Google.

http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipe...ry/000901.html

http://home.fuse.net/engineering/harold_westrich.htm

Most likely a student/inventor: http://www.smccd.edu/accounts/smccd/

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg..._Directory.pdf See: VW BioFuels

For now, splitting this thread off from the previous "Chris from Estes Park" new user thread to be on its own.

----

Here is another thread on the steam board: http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28175
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:15:36 PM
Harold13 Harold13 is offline
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Talking Re: Hello from another new guy!

Hello Outlaw,

First let me say I am sorry for not getting back sooner, and for making multiple posts. I thought my comments were going to specific people. I don't completely understand how "Threads" are separated.

I am flattered that you called me a "Plant". (What kind of plant? Tomato?: or like an oil thug?) I grew up in st.louis Mo and when I moved to Taiwan, Texas, California, I didn't feel like changing my OLD number.

Harry was right, I am a student/inventor. I also helped build a 9,000 gallon per year ethanol plant in Chickasha Oklahoma. We could brew 750 gallons of beer per batch. (I don't drink but I still think it's cool)

Otto, this is just the kind of information I need. I understand that it is called Brain"Storming" for a reason (I.E. we don't want the storm but it always leads to green pastures)

I understand that all engines run on pressure I just singled out steam because it's the topic. The argument you present is the argument that I have heard all of my life from Sheet metal workers and pipefitters alike. But I always like to solve unsolvable puzzles.
I understand that most people believe that the pressure in the feed water line must "overcome" the pressure in the boiler, but this is not true. all you realy need to do is prevent the boiler pressure from comming out. Gravity will let your water drop in and your steam will rise into the feed water line.

the first prototype I built worked just fine. two valves above the boiler about 6 inches apart. normaly closed - when water runs low just open the bottom valve - water drops in steam rises to top valve - close bottom valve - open top valve - steam exits system and water drops into the space between the valves.

That describes how to get water in without a pump but what about my high heat/pressure claims?

If you think of the question "how do I build pressure in the feed water line" you might answer "in the same way we are building pressure in our boiler" which is "fill with water - add heat" (no pump necessary) (Keep in mind “no pressure necessary either” water does not compress so there will be no measurable loss of steam pressure in the boiler)

when your inlet water is between two valves with no air space it is going to take one hell of a lot of heat to make it boil. My system has a secondary heater well downstream of the boiler (this means the usable steam will be much hotter than the boiler steam). Bypass gasses (in combination with steam exhaust) has a potential of building more heat between the inlet water valves than the boiler itself.

If engine efficiency is only 30% then 90% (minus other heat loss) is left to preheat inlet water. Combine this with the exhaust gasses and you get a nice hot and wet fluid to soak easily into the cool copper inlet lines. Condensate still contains much energy and can be collected and deposited into the makeup water reservoir (open to atmosphere).

I am halfway through building this prototype and looking for people to brainstorm with, But I am running out of steam on this project (no pun intended). I am new to the steam business so I still need many answers that would be easy for you steam guys but are killing my drive to complete a prototype. I must build a prototype with input/ output energy that can be accurately measured. It is hard to continue working without steam collaborators like you guys.

Thanx for your time and I look forward to your reply. (All of you)
Harold
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Old 05-26-2011, 04:38:03 PM
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold13 View Post
... I understand that most people believe that the pressure in the feed water line must "overcome" the pressure in the boiler, but this is not true. all you realy need to do is prevent the boiler pressure from comming out. Gravity will let your water drop in and your steam will rise into the feed water line.

the first prototype I built worked just fine. two valves above the boiler about 6 inches apart. normaly closed - when water runs low just open the bottom valve - water drops in steam rises to top valve - close bottom valve - open top valve - steam exits system and water drops into the space between the valves.

That describes how to get water in without a pump but what about my high heat/pressure claims?

...Harold
The feedwater still needs to overcome the boiler pressure whether by using a pump or an injector. Your 'two valve' setup is the basics of an injector. There are others on here that can explain how an injector works much better than I can, and be able to provide cut away drawings showing how they work. I have a couple of those cut away's saved in folders, but I'm currently out of space for posting pictures untill I can afford to upgrade to subscriber status (which I hope to be doing soon), but if you search the archives you should be able to come up with several pictures of them if no-one else posts anything.

Don't quote me on this, as it may not be exactly right, but as I understand it in simple terms, with the two valves, you open the steam valve first which blows steam out of the boiler, but in doing so, the steam actually creates a vaccuum within the column of steam that is blowing out which is then used to draw the cold water in through the center of the escaping column of steam. Also as I understand it, if an injector gets too hot, or the feedwater setting in and leading to the injector gets too hot, they don't draw properly and you need to cool down the injector to get it working again.

Gravity alone will not overcome the boiler pressure, and while heating the feedwater will bring it closer to the boiling temp so it will make steam quicker once it's in the boiler, heating it up does not raise the line pressure higher than the boiler pressure to force it in. To do so would require the feedwater supply to be pressurized as well to keep the hot expanding water/steam from blowing back out the line into the supply tank (water tower/well). Again.... try to find some pictures & cutaway drawings of injectors, as it sounds like that is what you have there with your 'two valve' arrangement.

As I said before, there are others on here that can explain that a lot better than I ever could, and hopefully some of them will chime in.
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Old 05-26-2011, 09:36:48 PM
Harold13 Harold13 is offline
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Hello Otto,
Wow I went to the web and saw a cutaway of a locomotive water injector. I can't believe how complex they are. I think you are complicating my idea by comparing it to an injector.

to get my idea you can just imagine that you have a glass of water and snap a plastic lid on it without any air space inside. now turn it upside down and take the lid off. The water falls out and air goes in. It does not matter if you are in a room that is compressed or under a vacuum or hot or cold the water is going to fall out and the air is going to go in.

In this example the bottom of the glass would represent the top or second valve, the plastic lid would represent the first valve or bottom valve. The pipe diameter is 3/4" to avoid capillary action from holding the water in the line.

I will finish my prototype and let you know how it goes.

I look forward to more comments on this topic. Thanx Otto,

Harold
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Old 05-26-2011, 10:01:04 PM
qsmx440 qsmx440 is offline
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Default Re: New User - Harold13 - Steam Questions

I'm thinking airlock on a space ship
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Old 05-27-2011, 01:32:56 PM
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

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Originally Posted by Harold13 View Post
... the first prototype I built worked just fine. two valves above the boiler about 6 inches apart. normaly closed - when water runs low just open the bottom valve - water drops in steam rises to top valve - close bottom valve - open top valve - steam exits system and water drops into the space between the valves. Harold
I went back & re-read your description of how you're doing what your doing, and Yes that will work, but you're only able to add the amount of water trapped between the two valves at any given time. Basically you're just making the small chamber between the valves into a pressure chamber when the top valve is closed meaning that in order to add any volume of water you would need to constantly open & close the valves draining & refilling the chamber (whatever its capacity may be). If you're running 3/4 or 1 inch pipe between them you're only going to be able to add a few ounces at a time. If you plumb in a 1 or 5 gallon pressure vessel tank between the valves then you would be able to add that 1 or 5 gallons at a time, which may be enough for a closed loop on a home heating system that only loses a little steam through leakage at the valves and/or other plumbing connections, but still wouldn't be practical on a steam engine or turbine that loses a lot of steam (water) out the exhaust where you need to add upwards of hundreds of gallons at a time when the water leve drops enough to warrant adding more. I suppose you could make a 30 to 50+ gallon pressure tank to go between the two valves, in which case you maybe would want to 'pre-heat' the water to cut down on the thermal shock when dumping in that large a quantity as quickly as it may go in (depending on pipe fitting size between the pressure tank & the boiler)

If your 'in line pressure tank' is at least 20% (give or take) the size of the boiler your filling with it, then it would work, but if you just plumb in two valves and a 6 inch section of pipe between them I think you will find that "Complicated" looking injector to be a lot simpler than opening & closing & opening & closing & opening & closing & opening & closing the valves 20 times just to add a gallon of water and hope you don't mess up and open the top valve while the bottom one is still open.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:00:47 PM
Harold13 Harold13 is offline
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

Of course, it would be automated. liquid level sensor, Solenoid valves. The whole idea here is that this way you could preheat the water as hot as you want no worries about messing up the pump.
Question: Why does the Carnot cycle require removing heat?
Answer: to condense steam for reuse of water. (you can not pump steam back into the boiler efficiently)

So Mr. Carnot chose to throw away the energy to save the water. My system chooses to to save the energy and save the water.

The prototype will be done soon I will let you know how it goes.

By the way does anyone know how much steam I can expect to produce with a 120v 1500w water heater element?
Thanx
Harold
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:16:29 PM
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How big of a boiler are you building ? And what will it be used for ? Home/shop heating system ? Steam engine ? Steam turbine ? A water heater element will make steam, but whether it will make enough steam for you depends on what you're using the steam for.

One of my old wood working magazines showed a small boiler made using an old propane tank with a bung welded to it to accept a water heater element for making steam for bending wood with but I don't remember if they used a 120 or 240 volt element.

A lot of the older toy steam engines used electric heaters in them, but they were usually very small boilers using maybe a quart of water at a time (give or take depending on the size of the toy)

There are a few electrical geniuses on here that could probably convert the watts to btu's and figure how much time it would take to boil a gallon of water etc., etc...., but again, it would help to know what you need to steam for and how much steam you need...
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Old 05-29-2011, 03:43:38 AM
Harold13 Harold13 is offline
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Hello Otto,

My boiler only holds about four to five cups of water and is built only to prove the concept of a heat exchanger that is capable of introducing more of the wasted heat than a typical Rankine cycle.
There will be no engine or turbine. The system will be ran for a few hours without the heat recycling system, keeping records of energy in pressure out, water consumption, temperatures. Then it will be run for a few more hours with the heat recovery system attached. records kept to compare witht the control run. I am sure it will work I just thought someone may know off the top of their head.
Thanx again,
Harold
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Old 05-29-2011, 11:27:56 AM
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Default Re: Hello from another new guy!

With that small of a system, your water heater element should be more than capable of keeping up and will likely be cycled off as much or maybe more than it's on once it's up to temperature, but again, the electrical geniuses can help you more there.

One word of caution though, that I hope you have already planned for, but if you hadn't thought of it, Be Sure to include a pressure safety valve aka Pop Off valve so it doesn't blow up on you.

Even that small a quantity of water can do some serious damage, and will reach the boiling point very quickly with that size heater on that little water.

Google boiler explosion and you will see just how much power there is in steam. Half million pound locomotives have been launched considerable distances by the 'rocket propulsion' of escaping steam.

Interesting ideas you're using there, but by all means, do it safely.
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:20:45 PM
Harold13 Harold13 is offline
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Thank you Otto, It is nice to hear some encouraging input. Yes I do have a 150 PSI pressure relief valve. I had to buy one of the new Pressure/temp release valves for a water heater ($9.50) and break out the temp part.

According to my theory; the standard operation, with 1500 watts in, will bring the boiler up to "X" temperature and pressure with a stable output maintained. If everything goes as planned the recovery system should produce an ever growing steam/temp output. To measure this accurately I will need a generator that will be capable of producing just under 1500 Watts so that I can use a multimeter to measure energy in and energy out.
the engine efficiency does not matter so I was just going to use a simple paddle turbine or something easy to build like a simple Tesla turbine. If I could find some small steam engine of any configuration at less than $50 I would just buy it and pipe it in, but up to now I can't find one. Any hints on where I can find a little steam engine that could generate 1500 watts?
Harold
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