low tension mag starting

I have a really nice barn fresh associated that has loads of character it has gained through the years. It runs great, but is a real bear to start. I would like to start it with a battery and coil, then switch it over to the mag. My question is, Should I install a 2 way switch (SPDT) to switch between the mag and ignitor. Or should I install a 2 pole 2 way switch (DPDT) so I can ground the magneto when the battery is in use. Also will I need a resistor in the grounding circut so the mag is not shorted directly to ground. Also what size and value of resistor might I need. Al

Hi Al, A single pole double throw switch will be just fine. There is no need to ground a low tension mag while the engine is running. The AC voltage generated by the mag when not loaded will be quite low compared to the spike created when the igniter trips. Low tension mags are critical as far as bearing condition, strength of magnets, and must be correcty timed to the engine. I would geuss you have a problem in one of these areas. So Have Fun and Good Luck

I just installed a rebuilt gear driven mag on my small associated. I measured the voltage on it while it was running off the batt and coil and got about 5 volts. This sounded low. It will run off the mag if you keep the rpm's up and will start if you use a crank and turn fast. Does this sound normal to you guys with the gear driven mags on Associateds? Thanks, Mike.

Thanks Ken. This engine "is as found". I did nothing to it. The mag timing is good, but the magnet could be weak, the armature bushings are a bit worn but not so much as to allow draging on the fields. This thing is a virgin and I want to leave it for the next generation to restore. I am not even going to clean it. I had it mostly apart and repaired the rod bearing and the wrist pin so it cannot do further damage. It is a lot of fun to run, People point and laugh. I just love it. Al

[Keith Smigle]

Al~

Here is the diagram out of a United manual. For mag / batttery hook up. Notice how the low tension spark coil is in line with the ground.

~Keith in Delaware, Ohio

Keith

Looking at the diagram you posted, is the coil wired correctly ??

I would think the coil would be between the batteries and the igniter, not between the batteries and ground. Does it make a difference ??

I have not gotten to the point where I have worked on this type of battery and low tension coil ignition and am just wondering.

Thanks,

Jim

I think the coil is actually between the battery and the ignitor. They have the positive side of the battery going through the coil and to the ground on the ignitor. The negative side on the battery goes to the nonmovable point on the ignitor. It isn't the way we are all used to hooking up coils but I have my stickney wired this way because it showed it the same way in the owners manual and it runs great.

Yup, some of the nicest running engines I have seen were in as found condition. Nothing wrong with that, it shows how these old engines spent most of their working life. It is getting hard to find engines and the old larger tractors in that condition....




My Old Engine Page

So Al, can we see a picture of this dirty thing? I have a coulple of engines and a walk behind tractor that I want to keep original, greasy & rusty, just makes it look older and gives it some charm. In fact some people even ask me if the tractor ( Red E ) runs, than I fire it up and ride it around. I have a United 1 3/4 and had a 2 1/2 Associate both low tension, and I dont know how, but you barely have to turn the flywheels for it to start and stay running.

[Ted Brookover]

Positive and Negative make no difference with a Low Tension Coil and Ignitor, it is wired this way in this case, to isolate the coil from the magneto.

If your mag is putting out correctly it does not have to be spun to start. Just like any other hit and miss engine it should snap right off with a pull of the flywheels.

Mike,

No dis-respect, but what are you talking about? I am asking, not, insulting you.

As I understand this thread,

The low tension mag being discussed does not have an impulse.

Impossible to generate electricity without being spun at a relatively high rpm (60-100 engine rpm). Thats with a good mag with good magnets.

That is why there are impulses on high tension mags, to replace the huffin' and puffin' required to generate enough speed by people power.

The point I am trying to make is that an ignitor engine can be started on a mag, but is more than a casual "flip" of the flywheels.

Maybe I misunderstood somthing.

-Mark

Golly gee Mark. My Assoc. 1 3/4 starts with just a flip. We bring it up compression just before the trip and whip it. The Assoc. is great because this old man can start it farly easy. I'll admit when I'm alone and have to choke it slightly, I use the crank. Oh well, Dick in the warm Finger Lakes region of NY

Harry has very good on the Associated magneto/ignitor in the IGNITION section. Pay particular attention to the info regarding the push pins on the magneto and the relationship that they have with the trip of the ignitor. When the magneto revolves there are two peak times of output. If the ignitor is timed to trip at the proper moment that the magneto is at peak in the cycle you will get a viable spark. It does not require lots of cranking and/or high speed revs to work. There is also info on a simple method of checking the magneto to see if it is working. Al, check it out before you go to all the trouble of setting up the bat/coil rig. I just finished fixing one that was just like yours. Now it starts off the mag with one easy flip of the flywheels. That timing of the magneto with the push pins and trip finger are critical. Just my 2 cents.....best of luck! GV

Again, I hope I didn't open up pandora's box!

Mike said that a mag did not have to be spinning to create a spark.

That is true in an oscillating mag. But the spring does the same thing as spinning a mag when it trips.

On a small engine without a large amount of flywheel inertia, it is very easy to spin it to sufficient speed to start it with a simple flip of the flywheels. I agree and completely understand what you guys are saying.

I was talking about getting that same speed with flywheels of 2,000 to 3,000 pounds. Can't be done without some huffing a puffing.

A battery start can be started with only a rollover on compression (or even a flip of the ignitor while at rest on compression stroke past tdc).

A mag that create spark while at rest (not spinning or being oscillated) is somthing new to me and that is what I was asking about.

Low tension mags are nothing more than a low voltage generator. I was trying to understand how it could generate electricity without being in motion.

Can a mag store energy while being at rest? Than create a spark some time later?

Sorry for the confusion.

-Mark Thompson

I had to replace the 45% helical gear that runs the mag, so I read the instructions here on Smokestack and in the book. The timing is correct. It is just old and 1/2 worn out, probably has a weak magnet. I had to patch the gas tank, take up the babbit bearings, and replace the gear. I do not want to fix any more for fear I will disturb the chicken crap on it, I am sure someone backed old bossey into it and bent the crank guard. I just cannot improve its character by restoring it. I do not know how to post photos, but it is lovely. Al

[Keith Smigle]

Mark~

I agree with you, as you know Associated engines are my favorite and I have three 4-bolt mags so I am very familiar with starting on the mag. I can start my Hired Man by flipping the wheels, but the mag is freshly re-built and is very strong. Plus the engine runs VERY well, so after a couple of tries it will start by pulling back on the wheels. But it is MUCH easier to just use the hand crank and get the wheels spinning and away she goes!

~Keith in Delaware, Ohio

Mark, I re-read my post and you must have misunderstood my description. The mag on my engine is the 2 bolt type, same as John Deere engine. It is nothing more than a generator. It is mounted 90 degrees to the timing gear. By diconnecting the wire lead to the ignitor, and running the engine on a bat and coil, I can measure the generated voltage between the mag wire and ground. Peak is about 5 volts at approx 250 rpms. I timed it using the instructions provided in the owners manual, by pushing in on the detent button until it falls into the depression and setting the engine at the ignitor trip position. When the mag was off and turning it by hand, you can feel a strong magnetic pull as it passes through the field. I was wandering if the mag is putting out the nominal amount of voltage, given that it will not run at slower rpms and is difficult to start without spinning the wheels rather fast with a crank. Thanks for any opinions. Mike

Just had the same problem with my Fuller & Johnson w/ A Splitdorf mag, Had to start it with a battery & coil then go to the mag. I charged the magnets and it solved the problem. Starts & runs fine from the mag alone.


Jim's Shop

Jim, I have the same gear driven mag on a Fuller and Johnson, 2 1/2 HP. I am pretty sure the magnets on mine need charging but how do you time the Splitdorf on the F&J? Thanks, Mike.