Library - Original GEM Articles http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/ en 60 Library - Original GEM Articles http://www.smokstak.com/forum/images/misc/rss.jpg http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/ <![CDATA[Briggs & Stratton 5S Where to start restoring?]]> http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/briggs--stratton-5s-where-to-start-restoring-1/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/briggs--stratton-5s-where-to-start-restoring-1/
I'd drain the oil out of the crankcase & check for water. Then remove the spark plug & also check and/or drain any accumulation of water. In any event I'd pour in a couple of ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil into sparkplug opening & roll it over. Don't force anything too hard. If it appears stuck let oil soak for a while. You could also use automatic transmission fluid. -- Doug



David, Your engine was made in Oct. 1950. You can do as Doug said and put some oil in the sparkplug hole. If you turn it over some, even with out oil in the plug hole, it should not hurt anything. Just be easy on it if it is tight at all, it could be a stuck valve as well as the piston. Brake fluid and diesel fuel work also. -- Mike

You have chosen a great piece for a first time restoration. The 5S is a nearly indestructible engine as evidenced by the large number of them still around. This also means you can find most any part without paying a premium price. The biggest tip I can offer on the 5S is that THE FLYWHEEL NUT HAS LEFT HAND THREADS! We'll be happy to give you all the advice you can stand if you just keep us updated on your progress. -- Neale

Neale is correct; the 5S is a great little engine to start on. Once you get it running you're HOOKED! I know because that's how my son and I got hooked. There are a lot of good books available on repairing small air cooled gas engines. A couple of the best on basics are by Paul Dempsey: How to Repair Briggs & Stratton Engines and Small Gas Engine Repair. Look for them on the web or at your local book store. -- Leonard

You have picked a great first engine to tackle. Mine was a Briggs 6S. Take it slow and ask lots of questions. Chances are someone has been there before and will be more than willing to share tips, tricks and how to info along the way. How far you take it apart will depend on how easily things come loose and how detailed you wish to take your restoration. Remember you can always go back and redo it at a later date. I find that I want to hear it run before I go whole hog in stripping it down to paint and reassemble, but that is just me. As others have said, get the spark plug out and put something into the cylinder to get things loosened up. Then check for spark. That may help you decide how far to take things apart. -- Peter

My first engine was a 5s. I am rather fond of the 2" bore Briggs engines. I have two 5 s engines, one runs a compressor, the other a pump. I also have a WM, an N, and (it's a different block, but still 2") and a Briggs A. Mine was also sitting out exposed and would only turn over about a quarter turn. I needed a new gas tank (only $20 from a B&S dealer) and just about everything else that an engine could need other than piston, crank and connecting rod. -- Serf
A 5s Briggs is a very good starter engine, my dad and I used to have one, and to let the truth be known, they seem to be the perfect combination in parts to make an engine. I have been able to get them to idle the lowest and smoothest of all Briggs & Stratton engines, with just the right adjustments, they run smooth as a sewing machine. The vacu-jet carbs they have seem to be part of the precision running that they offer. It’s just my opinion, but from the experience I have had from Briggs engines, especially the model 5s and 6s Briggs, they will continue to be the #1 small engine in my book. The number one reason is that you can fix them and they don’t put up a fuss as you do so and after you do they are tough little suckers too! -- Skylar

Part of the fun is taking it apart to inspect everything. The antique B&S book has a list of steps to overhaul. Make drawings of the governor linkage before you take it apart and clean the sump of all old oil. It is best to get the flywheel off to inspect the points and condenser, and instructive to go over the ignition system anyway. Removing the head is necessary to clean out the old carbon and check the valve seating. – Bwegher

You should not only inspect the points but either file and reset them or replace them. Without decent points you can never get a decent spark. You may also need to reset the magneto air gap. Very easy to do: Turn the flywheel so the magnet isn't under the arms of the magneto. Loosen the 4 little screws that hold the armature on, place an ordinary playing card between the armature and the flywheel and roll the flywheel around until the magnet pulls the armature down. Retighten the screws. All of this should, of course, wait until you get the piston and or valves freed up. If you can rock the flywheel any, in my experience the piston isn't your problem. More often than not there's a stuck exhaust valve. Here we go (no one has mentioned this benefit before): Time to buy NEW tools!! You'll need a small valve spring compressor tool so you can get the spring retainer pin out. If you remove the piston you'll also eventually need a small ring compressor to reinsert the piston. Hope we aren't overwhelming you with info. You can tell how enthusiastic we are to "infect" new folks with old iron fever. Beware, there's no known cure! If you run into problems check around in your area, there may be a small engine repairman who'd be willing to help you out. You can also check around for an engine club in the area; we're everywhere! 4H, FFA, and local tech schools are also places to look for classes and project books. -- Leonard

When you take the flywheel nut off DO NOT try to keep it from turning by holding the flywheel fins! The flywheel is aluminum and the fins will bust off. This will take it out of balance and the engine will vibrate. – Mike S.

One easy way to get the flywheel nut off is to remove the sparkplug, and put some clothes line down through the sparkplug hole in to the cylinder. Put as much in as is needed so that the piston stops before it gets to TDC (Top Dead Center). And as someone already said, the flywheel nut is LEFT HAND THREAD! Also you can use the same method when putting the flywheel nut back on. – Mike

I usually get a wedge shaped piece of wood and jam it under the pulley on the PTO side. Of course to do this the engine needs to be bolted down to something. Just be careful when you jam the wedge in so you don't bend the end of the crankshaft. – Mike S.

I find the use of an impact wrench is handiest for removing flywheel nuts. Don't even have to hang onto the flywheel in a lot of cases. Just make sure that you have the correct rotation so you don't land up tightening the nut instead of loosening it. If the nut doesn't move after a couple of raps, best investigate further before any damage is done. – Bill

I have to agree with what everyone else has said. The little cast iron Briggs engines are nearly indestructible! We have a 5S, mounted on a Montgomery Ward reel mower that is on its 3rd generation in our family as the yard machine. I've been working with Briggs engines for over 30 years and have quite a collection! I'm glad to assist you in any way you need...feel free to email me! – Tom

Dave, Good thing you sent those pictures...another No-No is soldering the sparkplug wire on the magneto coil. The wire is usually tinned and then twisted securely onto the coil lug. Soldering it to the lug is taking a huge chance of melting internal insulation on the coil and ruining it. – Neale

The only thing I can think of that hasn't already been said, and might keep you from pulling your hair out later is that it’s a good idea to replace the plug wire while you have the shroud off. I've seen them fire through the insulation that's touching the head or shroud, and won't get any to the spark plug. There are very few parts still available new... mostly gaskets and such. Briggs and Stratton has "Antique" microfiche cards which will help with part numbers, but those should be in your manual. Good luck and have fun! – ssimntih

Thank you everyone who has responded with your advice & support. These have been wonderful. The left hand tread would have been a killer, but in hind sight, this makes sense. I'm sure it wouldn't have crossed my mind till it was too late. The clothes line rope down the spark plug hole tip to remove the flywheel. Had to stop and think about this one for a minute (I'm slow). Then it dawned on me how it works. Blocking the pulley would work, except I don't have a pulley. If I only had an impact wrench… that seems like a winner, but I've only got a 2 gallon 100 p.s.i. compressor. One of these days, maybe, at this point I don't want to break the bank. On the coil (or is it magneto) spark wire that seems to be soldered in the middle of the wire wrappings, that was as I bought it. I'm guessing that my engine may have been rebuilt, since the coil is different, the carb & breather may be newer parts (so I'm told) and there is some overspray black paint on the plug and its wire. It dawned on this old man that some tools would be needed... more $$$. This is a topic for later discussion also as I'll need advice on these too.

UPDATE:
1. The piston is stuck for sure. Last night I put some Marvel Mystery Oil in the spark plug hole (rocked it around to get good coverage) and now we are waiting for a couple of days. Hard to when you got a 16 year old that is chomping at the bit. This project IS bringing us closer together. The wife said he got home from school last night & went to work liquid wrenching the parts & cleanup without even getting a snack and was there when I got home. 2. With the help of liquid wrench, followed by the better PB Blaster (LW didn't work) we got the drain plug off with some work. The bad news is that what drained out was an opaque oily liquid. I guess water & oil. Only about 1/8 cup, but at least it was not rusty looking. QUESTIONS: 1. The plug on it is a Champion CJ8. Is that what I should buy as a replacement? 2. Looking down the spark plug hole.. I see a step down (ledge) to the cylinder head rather than an unobstructed view. What is this ledge? The cylinder seems to be in at the top. 3. In making a starter rope. How long should it be? Have to close & go to work. I'm sure I didn't cover everyone’s tips & advise... please forgive me... they WILL be used as this site & this message thread is now my reference book. – Dave

To get the flywheel off just put a piece of wood against the flywheel end of the crankshaft and hit the wood a couple of times with a hammer. That should knock it loose. You can use one or two large screwdrivers to pry up the valve springs and then pliers to pull the retainers out. I don't have a spring compressor and this is what I do. It is best a two person job, though; one with the screwdrivers and the other with the pliers. – Mike S. You don't need an expensive flywheel puller. There is a simple tool used for removing them, after removing nut just put tool over end of crankshaft and tap with hammer. It looks like a deep well socket that may be available at K-mart or Walmart stores. Cost a couple bucks. -- Dick

You can make do with screw drivers and such for everything but putting the piston back in. Small ring compressors aren't too expensive. If you have a JC Whitney catalog (or once you get one) there should still be a little section in the tools part of the catalog that lists small engine repair tools. Look around at some flea markets for used engine repair tools, you'd be surprised what you might find for a little bit of nothing. Another way to get the flywheel off (pullers not recommended, good way to split a stubborn flywheel) is to put the nut back on the crank until it is flush with the end of the crank, then place a piece of oak or a piece of brass or lead against the end of the crank and whack it with a hammer. If the flywheel is really stuck on you might have to have another person pry on the back with a large screwdriver while you whack the end of the crank. The key word on any restoration project is patience, nothing spoils your day more than getting impatient with a stuck piston and hitting too hard. I now have a Briggs FH piston as a paper weight because I got impatient and ended up knocking a big hole in it! Live and learn. – Leonard

Dad showed me how to remove a flywheel nut without having to clamp the wheel or use an impact wrench. Just put the correct size box-end wrench on the nut and give it a belt or two with a brass hammer. Dad also taught me to knock off Briggs flywheels and old Ford rear drums by removing the nut then screwing it back on backwards just 'til the end of the shaft is flush with the face of the nut. A couple of sharp raps with a brass hammer is usually all it takes for a Briggs, etc. The Fords sometimes took a rap from a sledge hammer. Nice thing about screwing the nut on backwards is that, if you accidentally put a ding on the nut or shaft, you can use the nut to chase the threads straight again. – Elden

Like many other Briggs & Stratton collectors my first engine was also a 5s. It was crank start and made in 1952 it is on a Firestone Reel Mower which was my grandfather’s. The exhaust valve of my engine was stuck straight up when I got it and it had been for a while, so I took it to a local machine shop and had the face of the valve cut as well as the seats cut and valve ground. I then bought a gasket set and then I cleaned the engine up and re-gasketed it. Elden is right you don't need a puller, all you need to do is spin the nut to the end of the shaft and bang on it with a ball peen or small sledge, also get a rubber mallet and tap around the flywheel itself. A few good taps should loosen it. Like others said don't try to stick a screw driver between the fins or try to pry against the mag plate both are soft metal and both will break, I learned this the hard way , way back when, but still flywheels are cheap for this model unlike F-series or a flywheel for a model P (which are like $ 200 each) Once you get this engine running, you will just want to find more to get running , it's a great hobby you will enjoy it for years to come, especially as a father son activity, I know I do, I got my father involved in restoring Fairbanks Morse farm engines and it a great way to spend time together. – Jonathan

Don't forget...a screw type radiator hose clamp works great for a ring compressor! -- Neale

Be careful prying on the back of the flywheel. The magneto plate behind it can easily be broken. Also I believe you asked about the piston being to the side. On these engines the spark plug is not directly above the piston. When looking down on the engine from the flywheel side the piston is on the right, exhaust valve on upper left, and intake valve on lower left. -- Mike S.

Many more pages and photos on the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:45:38 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en The Future of Our Hobby http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/the-future-of-our-hobby-4/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/the-future-of-our-hobby-4/
The following bulletin board thread was started by Craig and introduces some of those that are in the newer generation who will carry on in our hobby…
I like to check profiles and see what interest visitors and members have, especially when checking out the chat room. More often than not, there is no other information other than their location. But I digress... This has probably been done before but I'm asking how many "youngsters", The Hobby's Future, frequent this site? I just found one 15 year old here tonight, and of course Chase and Tanner, and I know there are more. I'm asking how many of you are age 25 or under? – Craig

I'm 19. I was brought up with this stuff. Dad always had M&M tractors and for a couple years had a Jaeger, a Fairbanks with a radiator, and a few others. -- ssimntih

I am 19, mostly into Oilfield Stuff, got started at around 11 or so. I am pretty close to Chase, but he is a Buckeye and I a Mountaineer. – Zach

I’m 25 and live in Northern NC. I've always loved these engines since I first saw them, but I've had to purchase and do all the work on them myself since becoming independent. Bills and car payments make it hard to get more old iron. I don't see how most of the young guys can afford to buy all these engines. I can barely even find them around here, or when I do, nobody wants to sell. I have a Taylor 2hp and a Maytag. I'm looking to trade the Taylor to a guy down the road for a 1 3/4 economy because it's in much nicer shape. -- Jeb

I'm 20 years old. I have been interested in this stuff since my parents took me to the Canfield fair when I was about 3. I got my first "toy" when I was about 5, a Deming piston pump that my Dad found in the trash. My garage is now full of old machinery, although its all small engine powered aside from my Ideal mower. Most of it I've got for free too: things that people were throwing out. I finally started showing last spring. -- Mike

Well Craig, I just turned 26 last Wednesday, so I guess I don't count in your poll. I visit this wonderful site at least a few times each day, can't stay away! -- Jeff

I’m here. -- Mac

I am 23 and I bought my first engine back in 1989. It was a 1 1/2 IHC M, missing all the parts and rusty. I still have it but I never got it running. I learned a lot though. -- Jon

I don’t think that there is a lack of kids in the hobby. I think the prices are going to have to start coming down to see more of them become active. I know when I got my first engine at 17, I used my Christmas money, birthday money, and grass cutting/odd job money to buy it. I was working at the time but since then I’m getting paid a little better and if I save enough over the year I can get another engine or two. I’m 20 now and have a few engines but I’m able to buy less because of the prices of everything going up. I’ve also been trying to get some of my friends interested in the hobby, but most of them aren’t the best with tools. Or they don’t want to be bothered. I’m sure as time goes on there will be more of the younger generation getting interested and we just have to be there to guide them in the ways of the "ENGINE GUY"! -- Frank

Gee Craig, I reckon I'm an "old geezer" at 28. -- Mike

I am 21 and I grew up with rust. My grandfather and father have restored several steam tractors and brass era cars and also some other older tractors. I have an interest in all older machinery but love old engines. – North Mike
I am 60 years old, got my first engine three months ago and got the second one two months ago. I have a line on three more but haven't seem them yet don't even know what they are. You’re never to old to start. – Dave

I know I am not in the 25 or under - I am only 31, but I am still a "younger" collector. I am also part of this hobbies future, and have done several things to carry on to the next generation. I ran steam traction engines for 9 years, ran a saw mill with them, worked on a threshing crew at some shows, run a wire tie Ann Arbor Hay Press (bailer), ran old farm tractors, from Oil Pulls to 350 IH, not including the equipment I used on a farm I worked on for several years. I also collect and run hit-n-miss engines and small air-cooled engines also. The prices are more than most young people can afford, but I know that this hobby will live on. With the knowledge you bring to this hobby, a lot more people will learn. I would like to meet you someday and visit your place. With all that you have shown on the site, you are very talented! You do a great service to this board. Not everyone can see the tractors that you restore, but with your pictures and posts, we all can see them. -- Mike

I am 22 years old. Although my parents support the hobby and my father is a mechanical engineer, I am basically into all this stuff on my own. I am up to about 10 antique flywheel engines, five garden tractors, three snowmobiles, and other assorted "stuff." I will not lose interest any time too soon. It would take me years to liquidate all my stuff that is stashed all over. I have gotten a lot of criticism, because I don't have my own car but that is one way to afford these toys. -- CJ

I must first state that I am new here and this is my first post. I am 36 and have attended about 8 to 10 shows a year for the past 31 years. It's not hard to notice that people in the 15 to 25 age group are non-existent at most shows. Even at 36 I feel like I am still one of the younger people who frequent shows in our area that doesn't come in the front gate. I also enjoy model engineering and the same void exists there as well. I have three children and they too have little interest in this hobby. -- Forrest
I am 34, so I guess I fall in the age 26 - 35 group. I’ve had engines my entire life and I still have my first one! I like steam engines better though, but I still collect and play with gas engines. -- Jeff

I'm 31 and I’ve been in the hobby as long as I can remember and don't see myself slowing down any. I think there are a lot of younger guys getting into the hobby because I sold several people engines over the last couple years that were getting their first ones and a lot of these guys are in the under 30 age group. So I would say the hobby is pretty safe as long as we all keep passing down the knowledge over the generations. -- Tom

Well, I'm 27. I got my 1st engine at 16 years old and I have been collecting ever since. I've lost count of the engines I have. There is one other younger fellow that is in our club but, it seems he's more into tractors than gas engines. And I'm still trying to pull him away from the "dark side" and get him into the engines more. I'll keep hunting for engines till I find my 1st barn fresh Otto! -- Doug

I am 40 and have been around engines all my life. My dad started collecting engines when I was born and he has been a collector of something his whole life. I rebelled from old engines for about two years around age 17 but I grew to love them more than ever and started buying again at age 19. Now every time we see something new or buy another engine I feel like a kid in a toy store. -- Keven

I’m 44 and way too old for your poll but my 15 year old son is really getting into engines. He says, “Dad as much as I hate to admit it they’re really interesting.” I can’t wait ‘till I can find him an engine of his own this year. His grandfather has a 3 HP IHC M that he wanting to get running, but grandpa is not interested in it as it has been in the barn for 10 years and he won’t get it out so my son can try to get it running again. If my son ever looses interest in engines, Ill try to find a younger man or boy who really loves them but can’t afford one and give mine to them. I know there are many younger guys who will never own an engine because they are too high priced. -- Alan

I’m 18 and I got my first engine in 2001. I’ve been collecting since, but before that dad and I had a lot of Allis Chalmers equipment and now we have even more. -- Kyle

I'm 23 and I have been around engines and tractors all my life. My father has been taking my brother and me to steam and gas shows since I was five. I have 2-1/2 hp Economy, 1-1/2 Fairbanks ice block, 2hp dishpan Fairbanks, model 92 Maytag, and some model engines that I have built. I have started to take my 2 year old son to shows now. I want to interest him at a young age before the fast paced computer based world poisons his mind so much that he can't appreciate the past. Don't get me wrong, I love using computers and it's part of my job. I just think sometimes that too many kids don't get the appreciation for the mechanical marvels engines really are. – Iron Dad

I'm 23, almost 24. Been collecting since 1986, when my dad literally helped me drag a 7hp Saxon home. I have several tractors and 50+ engines now. I see a few collectors my age or younger around but not too many. -- Nick
I'm 36 and just starting to feel like I'm not a kid when I go to the shows or to meetings now. Yes, there are some folks my age in my club and the club’s Thresheree has had pretty good success in getting younger people involved. We have lifetime members who are still in diapers. The expense part is pretty serious for younger folks. Yes, you can buy some cheaper stuff out there, but you pay for it in restoration. -- Guy

I'm 19, but I'm not able to work with old equipment as much as I'd like, because I'm at school. Right now, I'm working on an Oliver 60, but I do like to play with my Grandpa's old engines from time to time. – Jake

I am 21. In a few months I will be going to school for two years for machining, then I am going to get my welders certification. I have been welding, playing with old engines, farming and hanging around machine shops since I was about 8. -- Tanner

I had NO idea that there were this many "youngsters" (and newcomers to the hobby) here! I hope this is an eye opener for everyone everywhere! The hobby will live on and for a very long time. It is my feeling that a lack a young people in a club or show can mostly be attributed to the club itself. Most do not ask for young people to get involved because they might want to change something. Or, the existing members are so darn stubborn that they won't share what they know (much less what they have) with anyone out of the "clique". Don't offer to help anyone, it might wind up costing you a few bucks, hours, or whatever. Do not share what you know with anyone, be a selfish pig and die with it instead. And for God's sake don't let your kid TOUCH that new PAINT JOB! A fingerprint will surely render the machine worthless! (I have actually seen this and it made me so sad.) -- Craig

Guess this is kind of off topic, but as to your last comment about people not willing to share info or where to look for an engine, you sure are right! At the first engine show I went to as a member (not showing any thing) I asked a few of the guys there if there were any engines they knew of for sale, any unfinished project, any places to look and I got in response, “Yeah I know of a few. I am planning on getting for myself. You don't expect me to tell you where any of them are?” I say yes, they say no. Heck, they would not help locate parts for my Jaeger or tell me where to look or anything. Oh well, sooner or later I'll have another engine. -- Mac
If Mike thinks he is an "old geezer" at 28, what does that make me? I just turned 70, and brought a new toy (8HP Field-Brundage) home today. – Al

I'm 18 and got my first engine when I was about 10. Have been collecting them ever since. -- Justin

I am 17 going on 18 and not looking forward to it. I got started in this hobby at 6 years old back in 1994 I think it was. At first it was tearing down engines for my dad and the next thing you know, I was not only tearing them down but cleaning them and rebuilding them! Dad didn’t believe this one time, when he was working on a scooter for a customer, next day he went to work as usual, and I thought, well, now’s a chance to tool around and get up to dads stuff when he's gone to work. So I did, but I didn’t quite know what I was doing, but I did it. What ever it was I did, grabbed the key and it fired up! I was amazed! My current antique is my 1933 model Y Briggs & Stratton that I’m restoring. -- Sky

Thanks for starting this post. I thought that I was one of the younger members, but I guess I have been collecting long enough that I still think I am young. I am 30, have a decent job and I am able to afford some engines to play with. Now to find that big shed to store and get them mechanically restored in. I think that it is great that so many younger people are interested. I see the same problem in other clubs where the younger people are shut out, but the leadership still wants the draw to the club. As more and more of the younger people take an active roll, I hope this will change. I know that in my main club, many of the members don't use the internet or don't understand it. I guess I am fortunate that I live in the Midwest and have access to many great shows and auctions. – Steve

I am 20. My biggest problem is money and trying to keep up with college, which I really do hate. I try and spend time with my girlfriend and I have been working all of my other time. I have a Novo, a Fairbanks Z and a lot of Air cooled motors. I'd love to get more (like that half breed that the owners are willing to give to me), but I don't have the time anymore and I certainly don't have the money. Also I don't think my Ranger will pull that half breed around. Us younger people are out here, but we also have less time to devote to old motors. -- Serf

I am 23 years old. I am a college student double majoring in Mechanical Engineering and Construction Management at Colorado State. I am really collecting only information right now. Looking at pictures and just trying to learn something new everyday until I graduate and start my career so that I can start collecting actual engines. As you well know this isn’t the cheapest hobby on the planet and being a college student = being broke. But my day is coming! -- Ben

Craig, I think you got your answer. Yes, there are a number of young people coming along. While I'm 75 and didn't start collecting until I was about 55, my youngest son was right there with me and now it's my grandchildren. They are the ones that make this hobby fun when you go to shows or the county fair, etc. Plus they help me move the old iron around. -- Dick

I am quite new to this site, but I have seen up here in Saskatchewan that a lot of young people in the 10 and younger group get a kick out of old engines and tractors. A lot seem to lose interest when they hit their teens, and attentions seem to turn to the other sex, vehicles etc, but I have seen quite a few come back later in their life, when they have some disposable income to start a collection of tractors/engines. That’s how I go into the hobby anyway. -- Will

I am 45 years old, but I have 7 kids and 3 model Case steam traction engines, 2 half scale and one quarter scale. My oldest boy, aged 14 has been running the half scale for about 9 years. Middle son age 12 about 8 years and youngest son age 10 about 6 years. They are all responsible engineers. Sometimes when I get home they have loaded all of the engines and equipment and are ready to go. Most of the time we camp at the show grounds, so they plan the menu and pack the food as well. This part can get real interesting? -- Casemaker

I'll be looking at one of the engines at a show and someone will ask me a question of something pretty obvious. You know, “where's the carb?”, so they can have their little laugh. Well, it's funny as heck to see their response when I tell them where the carb is and then start naming the rest of the parts on their engine and to add to their surprise, I’ll give them a little historical info about the engine company while I'm at it. Then I'll start talking about my engines and tell them how slow my 6hp M runs and about a few of the engines that I’m trying to get a hold of like a 15hp Victor. – Chase

I am 23 years old and I have been working on engines since I was 17 or so, starting with small Air Cooled engines. Recently I have begun collecting Fairbanks Morse engines. I find this hobby to be a very fun and fulfilling one, although there are some problems along the way its all worth it in the end. It seems that everyone has at least one problem engine and to get the engine running is the greatest feeling ever. -- Johnathan

I'm 25 years old from Indiana. My personal collection consists of a 1 3/4hp economy, 2hp Roy C. Whayne (Hercules-built), 1 1/2hp Racine-Sattley, 1 1/2hp Worthington, (2) 3hp Worthingtons, 2hp Reliable sideshaft, 6hp IHC Famous, 12hp Advance steam traction engine, and a 1913 Model T Ford touring car. I'm also on the board of directors for the local club. There is quite a bit more sitting around the house as my dad and grandfather have been collecting engines, tractors, cars, and steam engines since the early 1950's, so I'd like to say that I have 60 years of collecting and restoration experience at my disposal. I visit EnginAds to see what is going on in other parts of the country that I wouldn't normally hear about and to meet new friends young and old alike! -- BB

I added a poll to this thread a bit late in the run, but I think that it might be a representative sample of the readers after 186 votes. The thread accumulated 57 responses and 3,152 views to date.

Age 10 to 19 = 3%
Age 20 to 29 = 8%
Age 30 to 39 = 15%
Age 40 to 49 = 21%
Age 50 to 59 = 22%
Age 60 to 69 = 24%
Age 70 to 79 = 7%

Many more posts and the poll chart... CONTINUED]]> Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:50:39 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en What to do about blow-by? http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/what-to-do-about-blow-by-5/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/what-to-do-about-blow-by-5/
I have never had any luck reusing old piston rings. I know a lot of people that do it, though. If I don't have to pull the piston out of an engine, I don't. If I have to, I replace the rings. The rings are probably one of the cheapest parts you can get for an engine, unless of course, you're working on something with a huge bore. If I were you, I would get a new set of rings and lightly hone the cylinder to break the glaze, if there is any, since you said you honed it not long ago. You should also check the side clearance of the rings in the grooves. If that is excessive, compression can leak around the back side of the rings. Some engines are funny when it comes to blow-by. I have a Fairbanks headless "Z" that has no blow-by sometimes and other times you'd wonder if it had rings in it at all! I think there is a multitude of things going on in my engine, such as, worn piston, worn ring grooves, the cylinder probably has taper and is out of round. I did just recently renew the wrist pin and it seems to have helped it a lot by possibly keeping the piston a little more true in the cylinder instead of letting do its own thing due to the sloppy wrist pin and bushing. These are my experiences so take them for what they're worth. -- Mike

There might be a lot of end gap on the rings and once and a while the end gap on all the rings get lined up with one another and the compression just blows right through the end gap. -- Chuck

The above post is probably spot on. Worn rings in a honed cylinder wear even more and faster and the end gaps are probably aligning now and then. Is oil or air blowing back in to the oiler? Is oil getting to the piston - 5 to 6 drops a minute? Is the piston wet with oil when the engine is running, or does it appear to be dry? Is oil being blown off the rear of the piston? If you pull the engine over smartly, does it blow by? Or does it only blow-by at slow speed? So many questions! If the piston is wet, and the blow-by is not noticeable at running speeds, don't worry about it. If it is noticeable at running speed, and/or the piston is running dry, you will have to remedy it, and soon, if you want to save the piston and bore. Running dry and hot leads to extreme wear and fast! Check your piston to cylinder clearances - if the piston is too sloppy in the bore, the rings will not be able to seal correctly. -- Andrew

With six rings the gaps lining up seems a bit unlikely to me (my opinion not worth much, only had a H&M for a year now). Every now and then the oiler will have air blow back. The piston is getting about 15 drops per minute and at 10 or so the bottom of the cylinder had no oil. Is too much oil possible, gumming up the rings? The engine never does any work because I have nothing for it to run. Oil is not blown off the rear of the piston in any great quantity, just a puff of exhaust from the top of the cylinder/piston when it fires. Any more info needed to evaluate the situation? – Mac

When you honed the cylinder you forced the old rings to get about 20 years of accelerated wear in a days time. By introducing this much wear you most likely wore the rings much past the point of working "acceptably". Had you not honed you could have probably gotten away with it. In any case there has been a past compression problem with your engine. Having 6 rings in it tells me that some past owner was trying to get better compression than he had by doubling up. Usually doubling up doesn't work any better or worse than single rings and is only a desirable solution where the proper width single ring is not readily available. Check your ring side clearances. This is likely your problem area. Expect to see an extra 1.5 thou of clearance due to using the doubled rings. With 2 per groove you should have 3 thou when new, and 6.5 thou is the max. Seven or more and you need machine work. The top groove always wears the most. You need a set of three rings 3 1/4" x 1/4" and probably three .030" spacers to go on the top side of the rings. Measuring with feeler gauges will tell the story. When the rings are not held tightly enough in the ring grooves due to wear the rings can turn in the grooves. The force of gravity makes the gaps all line up at the top in a horizontal engine much like a marble finding the bottom of a punch bowl when released. Maybe not quite this fast but faster than you might imagine. In any case the compression doesn't escape past the lined up gaps. 95% of the leakage is by the sides of the rings where they don't lay flat against the ring land. End gap means very little in the business of sealing compression. It can however indicate a ring that is not the proper size for the cylinder and tip you off that the ring may not be round for the desired cylinder diameter. The two big problem areas today are: #1. The thing that is way overdone to engines is honing. If you want to save yourself a lot of headaches skip this step. If the cylinder is not rusty or is not a newly bored cylinder you are better off not to hone. #2. NOT checking the side clearance in the ring grooves. 5 thou is the max acceptable. Any more and compression problems are coming to your neighborhood shortly. Good luck in your quest for compression. Give me a call or email and I will be glad to help. – Dave

If the cylinder/rings/piston is worn at all it will depend on oil to help seal the rings. If you flood the engine when starting it once, oil will be washed off and once it starts to blow by it will keep the oil from getting to the proper place. This is sort of a No-Win situation. Does the oiler have a Check Ball in it? Sometimes blow-by will keep the oil from going down the pipe to where it is supposed to be. If the piston is worn too much or the cylinder is tapered the piston will cock in the bore and the rings will not seat. If you have good compression when turning it one way and much less when turning it the other way I would expect to find excessive wear. – Ken
My FMZ has a massive amount of compression, but at t.d.c. it has a bit of blow-by. My Novo is the same way. Granted, the FMZ only has about 2 hrs on it since honing and I put new rings in it. I think the rings were $5 each and the engine uses three. For the amount of trouble they can cause, it is really easier to just put on a new set of rings. If you do this, then honing to break the glaze is a good idea. I run this engine with the oiler up as high as I can without smoke coming out the exhaust. Not surprisingly it is just a few drops per minute over what Fairbanks recommended. -- Serf

All replies are excellent. The only thing that I would use instead of a regular hone is a bottle brush type of hone, you know the one with the little balls. They break the glaze but do not change the size and never chatter. Also they will follow the taper or out of roundness of the cylinder. I like using them! – Wisc


I still see no reason for the rings to seat so well and then have blow-by a short while later other than the ring gap lining up. It seems to have compression when I turn it over backwards, and very little blow-by. -- Mac

I can't see the rings traveling that much that fast. Also if the rings aren't pinned and you reused them you are fighting an uphill battle as they were worn to the cylinder and now they are probably in a different place. I would suspect you are washing the oil off the piston/rings either when starting or by feeding too much fuel. Try feeding more oil and see if that helps. The engine on my saw rig will lose compression (it has lots miles on it) if I don't feed enough oil but with enough oil feed it runs just fine. This engine doesn't just sit there and PUT. It gets worked hard about 20 to 30 hours a year. Yes, one of these days I will have to clean up the ring grooves and get some new rings. -- Ken

Running at idle or very low RPM can cause rings to unsettle. It’s possible that carbon is interfering, also. Try running at the highest speed allowed for a while. Put at least some load on it, and vary it while running high RPM. After a while of that, vary speeds up and down with load and then back to highest RPM. -- BW
Loose ring lands will let rings line up the end gaps in less than a hour of run time. – Bob
I have never had the problem of the ring gaps lining up. I do know that the reason they pinned the early rings is because they were made much thicker on the side away from the gap and gravity would actually cause the heavy sides to end up on the bottom and cause the gaps to line up. But modern rings are no longer made that way. How many pinned rings have you ever seen in a 2 cylinder John Deere and they were certainly successful. I have removed lots of ring pins and have had no problems. Any compression problems I have ever had have been traceable to wear or lubrication issues. -- Ken

More on the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:35:56 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en How many engines are enough? http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/how-many-engines-are-enough-7/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/how-many-engines-are-enough-7/
This is my opinion on having that many engines. There are several guys I know that have over 30 engines, some over 100. The thing with them is that they have so much stuff that they can’t enjoy it all. They restore an engine, stuff it in the back corner of their shop and go onto the next one. There is one guy I know of who has some engines that he has had sitting in the same spot for 10 years and has never touched or moved them. Now what is the point of having that many engines if you never even run them? I don’t get it. – Tanner

In a few years, your son will discover "THE OPPOSITE SEX". This will distract him for a number of years, but after "girl fever" runs its course, he will probably re-discover old iron fever. You old-timers will have to keep the collection safe until this happens. Funny, but that's how it usually works. -- Ron


I'm 21 and that didn’t happen to me. Sure I have a girlfriend, but instead of ignoring old iron, I got her hands dirty and took her to the shows! Let’s just say, I let her know what she was getting into from the start. – Tanner

Ron that is the way to go, I started too late with my wife and I catch heck every once in awhile. 100 engines are not too many, but with regards to not running them, I get a thrill out of owning them. The same thrill as running them – William

I have around 50, from 1hp to 34 hp. About all I do with them is move them around to stuff them closer together for more space which winds up with me putting more stuff in that open space. Eventually the barn will be completely solid. Definitely not the way to go, but I have a hard time letting go of a lot of them. One guy can probably only take care of 10 to 15 reasonably and beyond that, it is insanity. I know because I am there. – Rob

Gosh Rob, only 50? I thought you would have more than that. So, what do you have that is 34hp? Inquiring minds would like to know. -- Bill

Is it something you really want to cure? He is interested in a great hobby and it is good he shows such an interest. Perhaps 100 is too many, maybe get him really interested in one or two brands that he would like to collect by himself. I too, hope to have 100+ engines and a few steam traction engines, along with 600 acres of good farmable land. Let him know he has the rest of his life to collect and he should be in no great hurry. These are thoughts from a young guy. -- Mac

I’ve seen several friends die who had oodles of junk and it didn’t do them any good in the end. I’ve only got three engines and I don’t want too many more due to space and not being able to do anything with them. Right now, I’m trying to get one of my best friends to let me get his 1926 Chevrolet truck running again. It has been in the barn for 20 years and it needs to be on the road again, hauling engines to the shows. He will never get it going again because he’s just too busy. As for the girls, he’s better off with engines! I hope my wife doesn’t see this. -- Alan

There are many phases of engine-mania, the acquisitive phase being the one that does most damage to the wallet and to relationships. If you have the space and the cash, then the sky's the limit, but long-term it is better to restrict the purchasing to those engines that are going to give lasting pleasure of ownership, rather than just satisfying the urge to own lots of old iron. We had 30 or so assorted Listers and Petters, but now we are concentrating on our 11hp horizontal Ruston & Hornsby diesel, plus a few engines like the Spanish "Diter" 15hp vertical, and the Cub flat-twin diesels, both of which are fairly unusual and are a pleasure to play with, when I get the time! – Peter

I started collecting when I was 15. I am now 42 and still collecting and this was one of the smartest things that I have done. Engines that I gave $400 for back in the 80's are now worth thousands. My advice is to buy bargains and what you can afford. Money with interest at 1.5% is very boring. – Mike

I can relate to acquisition fever. I'm just about through that phase and just about out of money! Thanks to the constant insults (reminders) from my mentor about what I was bringing home, I have settled into a particular type which keeps me from buying everything in sight. No complaints though, I have plenty of fodder if I need to liquidate something to buy something else. And I learned a bunch about being very careful to inspect before settling on a price. That led to some real post-purchase escapades! Teach the little guy how have a discerning eye for assessment and be able to bargain with the best and he'll be fine, one engine or a hundred! -- Kenny

I seems to me that the HUNT for another engine is as fun as getting it running. I've been collecting since I was 15 and I'm now 25. I average about five engines a year. I'm not picky because I like them all! There are only a few engines I will never part with: the ones I bought for my dad when he was alive. The rest I'll trade for other engines or sell. -- Doug

One is enough. Especially so when engines I haven’t seen for 20 years are taking up valuable space in the sheds. I'll never make a profit on them because I paid the going price for them, and freight, taxes and upkeep on the buildings have to be considered too. It's cheaper and more enjoyable to help you guys fix your engines, and to watch you run them. -- Harvey

See the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:17:09 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Engine Crank Handles - yea or nay? http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/engine-crank-handles---yea-or-nay-8/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/engine-crank-handles---yea-or-nay-8/
The way I look at a crank handle, it is only good for a paperweight or a sinker. About 3 years ago I split my upper lip in two and let me tell you, it hurt like heck. So no more cranks for me! (This was not the first time I have ever used a crank either.) – Dave

Here's how I use a crank and I have never had a problem. I hold the intake valve in with my left hand while cranking the engine up to speed with my right. Release the intake valve and remove the crank and hope it starts. With this method I am never cranking against compression and the engine can't fire and kick back. It's been working for me for 25 years. – Mike

I don’t like to use a crank on a smaller engine, because you might lose some teeth! But I am a little guy and that is the only way I can start my 6 hp IH M. Those cranks came with the engines for a reason, just be careful! – Smith

I posted here a while ago on this subject: They make GREAT wall ornaments and that's where they belong -SECURED to a wall where no one can use them! -- Craig

Some 7 or 8 years ago, a local "townie" gave me a call to plead for help. He had inherited a small Stover engine that his grandfather had bought new in about 1913.
It had been sitting on the dirt floor of a shed for many years, and it had sunk into the dirt several inches. Some of the cast parts had gotten extremely soft from the moisture in the ground. You could practically peel the metal off with your fingernail.
Anyway, I made some parts for his engine and helped him to do some mechanical work on it. While he was at my place one day, he noticed a wall in my garage that has about 30 engine cranks nailed to it, and he asked if I had one that would fit his engine. I told him that I did, but I would NOT sell one to him because they are very dangerous to someone that doesn't know how to use one. I was afraid he would end up hurting himself or his engine.
About a month went by and I hadn't heard from him because he was going to paint the engine before contacting me again about starting the engine up. I received a call from him that the engine was painted and ready for me to come over, make final adjustments, and teach him how to start it. I went to his place and got the engine going and let it run for quite a while to seat the rings and valves a bit. I then shut it down and showed him how to start it. I went through the procedure with him 5 or 6 times so that he could try to do it himself in the future.
Two weeks later, he called me and said he tried to start it, but it wouldn't run. He wondered if I would come over and help him, but I wasn't going to be able to go there for at least a week due to my busy schedule. He was bound and determined to have a crank even though I wouldn't sell him one, so he had a co-worker of his make one for him.
A few days later, I got another phone call from him. He had tried to use the homemade crank. It slipped off of the crankshaft, hit him in the mouth (breaking two of his teeth) and then it flew back into the engine where it got caught between a flywheel spoke and the engine base. The flywheels had still been spinning when this happened.
It ended up badly bending the crankshaft, breaking the cam gear, fouling up his fancy paint job, and hurting his pride (and his two broken teeth and a cut lip that required stitches).
He said that he should have listened to me when I warned him about not using a crank if you were a "newbie" to these engines. I do try to find original starting cranks for my engines, but I don't generally use a crank unless it is built into the flywheel of an engine.
My feelings are that if you can't start the engine by pulling the flywheels over once or twice by hand, you had better do a little tweaking on the engine because something isn't quite right. If the engine is in good mechanical shape and adjusted correctly, you shouldn't need to use a crank on it. I have to agree with Craig- the cranks belong decorating a wall in the garage. – Ironman

It's a tool just like a gun, a knife, or a floor jack. Pay attention and you'll be ok. Ignore safe practices, and you can get hurt. – Rob

I have engines with ignitors and low tension mags that are not going to start by spinning the flywheels by hand! Making sure your engine is timed properly will save a lot of grief!! Ladders are unsafe too! – Bob

A few years ago I was starting a Stover CT-2 In a cement mixer. It wasn't easy to start it by pulling over the flywheels as they were inside of the hood so I used the crank. I started it many times that way until one morning when it balked and threw the crank into my forehead opening a gash over my eye. I learned an important lesson that day. I do have some engines that are difficult to start without a crank but I always hold the intake valve open with my left hand until I get the engine turning as fast as I can. I then remove the crank handle then release the valve. I still use extreme caution during this process. -- Dick

I have a couple of boxes full where I can't get to them. I don't even hang them on the wall. Nice to have with an engine if one came with it. If it won't start easily, fix it so it does. That's all I can say - bitten once, not again. -- Paul

There are many views on the subject, but don't forget there are plenty of big engines where spinning flywheels just isn't an option, not just petrol (gas) engines but diesels as well. We have a big side-shaft Ruston & Hornsby Diesel, which has to be started with a 'lighter' in the cylinder and the handle. It has a half-compression cam to help, but there is no way these type of engines could be spun by the flywheels. I keep the crankshaft end and starting handle well oiled on the Ruston as it will stick on the end of the shaft and get well 'out of order' if not. See Rob’s comments above. – Peter

My FMZ and Sattley both have handles as part as the flywheels so they won't fly off. But I am careful how I crank them. I spin it fast with the intake pushed in and let go of everything and let it spin to start. However, that said, how come you folks with big engines don't consider pony engines? Perhaps kick starting a Maytag and letting it start your engine would be the safest way to go? -- CG

Having the crank that came with the engine, to me is like having the original oiler, pulley, etc. NICE, but, I don't use them. Most of my engines can be rolled up onto compression from the flywheel with one hand, let a little pressure wean off, and pull it on over. One soft puff, then a louder one, and then it’s off and running. Always makes me smile when they run like that. I just saw a couple engines at a show where the guy's where sweating cranking and cranking. I just like it my way I guess! -- Eric

NO WAY, NEVER AGAIN. I broke my nose when a crank handle flew off my Schramm while starting it. I pull the flywheels from now on! – Patrick

Once upon a time I felt the same way. I've seen people get their teeth knocked out with a crank. Now, to some extent I agree with Junkologist and BobRR, although I only use a crank when it is absolutely necessary for a particular engine. The mag on my Mogul 1 hp has to be spinning fairly fast in order to make a spark at the ignitor. It is impossible to start by tugging on the flywheels. On the other hand, it's a very easy starter with a crank. But the Mogul crank left me with a thick scar underneath my chin. That incident taught me a lesson: Keep your face out of the plane of the crank's rotation. Now, I hold the crank at arm's length when spinning it up. Even if it's a bigger engine where one has to get in close and lean into it, if you back off at the same time you release the intake valve, the chances of wearing an implant in your face will be much reduced. -- Orrin

Never at a show! At home if you want to risk getting hurt. Learn to start the engine without one. Hang the crank on the wall! – Harvey
Some of my engines (Cushman Cubs) have hand starting cranks built into the flywheel, but I still try to start them by the flywheels. At least these handles can't go flying off! For the other Cushmans of mine that have a separate starting crank, I have one for every engine - but for SHOW purposes. It makes the engine more complete. -- Jim

I have a 4 HP Fairbanks-Morse type H with an ignitor and a Sumter rotary magneto that has to be spun fast to start. It is the only one I use a crank on. On engines that have a starting handle built into the flywheel, I remove them wherever possible. – Al

I try to have an original crank for every one of my Sparta Engines, and I seldom use them. I prefer to have my engines tuned so they start easy with the flip of a flywheel, but that has it's dangers too as I found out this weekend! I went to the Ottawa KS show and took my Sparta's with me. The one I have owned the longest is my 2hp, and it is fully restored and painted. It almost always starts on the first time over, until Saturday. It just didn't want to start. I was choking the engine and turning the flywheel (no crank) slowly, when it backfired. I wasn't able to let go of the flywheel quick enough, and it took my hand backwards with the flywheel, and literally split one of my fingernails in half! Blood everywhere! I'm lucky to have my finger tip still! My lesson - it isn't really the crank or the engine or the flywheel that hurts you, it's incorrect use/handling of said item. --David

I hope the non-users never venture into the tractor world, because we would look silly hanging our cranks on the wall. Learning to time a engine is a challenge but worth the effort. -- Mike

But REMEMBERING to retard the timing, especially with a crowd watching, is another story. With an impulse magneto on a tractor you don't HAVE to remember, unless it's a mag where you have to set the trip, THEN you can get in trouble too! This usually only happens ONCE per tractor - after that you remember. – Craig

I know someone who started a 10-20 Titan Tractor without retarding the timing. Sure put a bend in that two foot crank handle. Six weeks later, the Doctor took off the cast, and said your arm will be as good as new, in a few more weeks. -- Paul

The ONLY way that could happen is that he forgot to trip the impulse dog, and it's easy to do! You need to check it after EVERY impulse on those KW Model T mags to be sure it's still set! Or, he never had it timed right in the first place. I get a "kick" out of the AC guys always saying how their little B's and C's will kick. I always tell them if they have the magneto correctly set that won't happen. Live and, learn if you're lucky. – Craig

Tractor cranks are different. In many cases they are necessary to get the tractor running. Also, most tractor cranks pass through a long enough opening to prevent the crank from being thrown in case of a backfire, etc. Farm engines however are notorious for letting the cranks fly. My concern is for bystanders; I 'm not even talking about owner injury here. I don't know how many engine and tractor owners I have seen wrapping their hand around the crank and whipping it full circle. When I see this at a show, I quickly walk the other way. Somebody should teach a course on how to crank-start engines. -- Harvey

Just a final note: This thread “strikes” close to home because as a very small child, I remember my oldest brother trying to start a cement mixer and my parents taking him to the hospital after the crank flew off. Most likely, the magneto was in the running position rather than retard for starting. Also, BEWARE that while cranking and holding the intake valve open, you may experience a nasty fire coming out of the air intake! Be sure your face is far enough away. -- Harry

See the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:40:31 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Running Engines on Propane http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/running-engines-on-propane-6/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/running-engines-on-propane-6/
Joe, I ran my six horse M just the other week on propane. The timing was still the same as always when I run the engine on my special mix (half lead free gas and half paraffin). We always use a special regulator when running an engine on propane, see the picture. The RED one is a pressure valve and the BLUE one is a suction valve. The engine was running on kerosene and I put the hose in the opening of the damper plate when it was closed, closed the kerosene needle valve and there she ran on propane without any trouble, but much slower and nice and quietly. I adjusted the damper plate a little more open just 1/8" and the engine ran like a clock. One of these days I will make an adapter plate instead of the damper plate with a built in tube for the propane and a little adjustable air inlet to regulate the mixture. -- John


I always start my propane fired engines on gasoline, then switch over to propane once they are running. On IHC M's this would be really simple to do, since you already have that priming bowl in the mixer. The trick that I have found helpful is to shut off all possible air. Only feed the engine propane and it will suck air from somewhere, like around the valve guides. This way you only need the smallest amount of propane to make your engine run. Propane has something like 35 times the BTUs of natural gas and only needs a very miniscule amount of air to combust. Once you have your M running turn your gasoline off and turn the propane on slowly. When you can hear the propane "hisssssssss" that’s more than enough. Make something to go over the carb/mixer so it cannot suck any air. You will be surprised at how long an engine will run on a 20lb bottle of propane when it’s done this way. And talk about running SLOW! -- Doug

John, how does the suction valve work? -- Bob

With an open bottle there will be no propane coming out the hose, when you push the little brass pin the propane is flowing. At the inlet stroke the engine sucks the valve open and the propane comes in the mixer, no more, no less. The faster the engine runs the more propane coming out the bottle. When you pull the hose out of the mixer, then the flow stops immediately. -- John

I have never heard of a doodad like that John. What do you guys use them for and what do I need to tear apart to find one? I was just going to use a barby regulator, a ball valve for on and off and a needle valve to regulate the flow. -- Joseph

These regulators were used on the English Wolseleys, mostly for the little milking units in the field. So now and then they show up on the market, but they are scarce. Through these valves you never get propane gas when it is not needed, only when the inlet stroke is there. One of my engine friends runs a Baker Monitor on propane with the same valve unit. You can see the flywheels spinning very slow and hear a little hissing that's all. Some guys use an old LPG car unit that works the same. -- John

On a hit and miss governed engine that "demand" valve is necessary. Valves like this are similar to what is used on LP powered tractors and forklifts. On a throttle governed engine this isn’t needed unless you plan to actually work your engine. Or if you don’t want to work your throttler, but just make it run slow, a demand valve isn’t needed. You can simply use a regulator off a BBQ. Some BBQ regulators have a valve in line after the regulator. This way you only have to turn the main valve on and then feather how much propane you want by the little in line valve. And since propane burns so dry, it is a good idea to plumb in a drip oiler in the fuel line itself. And remember, shut off all air intake as best you can. -- Doug

Check with your local power company, and ask where they get their propane powered equipment serviced. The repair shop should have the regulators you need. Especially when cool, you need to preheat the engine before running on propane. Also there is a 25% power loss, as well as a 25% more fuel used penalty over gasoline. One more Item - propane also increases wear throughout the engine - valves, seats and rings, as propane runs hotter and has no lubricating value, unlike gasoline. -- Andrew

I had real good luck running my 6 horse IHC M on propane. I used a barbeque regulator and a hose I picked up at Lowe’s. I removed the mixer/carb and made a plate that bolted on there, drilled and tapped it for 1/4 pipe threads, put a nipple in and then a tee. On one side of the tee I put a ball valve to control the air and on the other side of the tee I put a needle valve to control the gas and then I hooked the regulated flow from the bottle up to the needle valve. I used the same timing settings as I would use on Gasoline. You will have to feel it out to see what air/gas settings work for you, but with the help of a friend of mine we were able to get it to run very slow. I think it is important to be able to adjust the gas and air separately. – Joe

You should not use a regulator that provides a flow of propane when the fuel tank is turned on. All motor fuel vaporizers/regulators lock-up (no fuel flow) until the regulator senses a vacuum from the engine. When it sees a vacuum, fuel flow will start. If you are running this engine with the type of regulator you are speaking of and the engine stops (while you have been called away at a show) you would have a dangerous fuel leak. If you want to run LP, please use the right equipment. -- Kent

I agree, but you should NEVER leave an engine running when you are not there. That is just asking for trouble. -- Patrick

I’ve hooked up my Ideal to run on propane and I had great success in running it slow and steady. But that doesn’t make it correct or safe. The barbecue regulators with a needle flow control will work with no problems, but they are a safety issue. You need a regulator that has a "vacuum controlled flow" otherwise you’re making a potential bomb as a previous post stated. I swapped my Ideal back to gasoline until I can acquire the proper regulator. I did notice that the engine ran much hotter while just idling when operating under propane. Probably not a major issue at an idle, but I’m sure its a factor to consider if a load demand is added. -- John

Some manufacturers built mixers that piped fuel straight into the mixer without an "on demand" regulator. Commercial was one such manufacturer and I think Western did the same. The danger of such a setup has been greatly overstated. The amount of fuel to run a mid sized engine is very small, much less than required to fuel your hand-held propane torch. Would a propane torch, with the valve cracked partially open, sitting out in the show grounds be considered a "bomb" or an extreme hazard? No. The fact is, you probably would have a hard time lighting it without getting the striker right down on the nozzle, and then you'd only have a small flame. I kludged together such an arrangement on a Sampson engine, essentially a 3/4" pipe with a valve on one end to choke back the air. In the middle of the 3/4" pipe I've stubbed in a 1/8" pipe where the propane enters. The propane is controlled by a smaller valve and pressure is controlled via a barbeque regulator. A barbeque-sized bottle will fuel the engine for a several show days. Go ahead and get yourself some pieces of pipe and some valves. It's not as difficult as you might think. – Rob

Rob, all I can say is your right a small leak in the middle of a open field won’t do anything? You do this in your shop or garage and you maybe building a new shop as soon as you get out of the hospital, if you’re that lucky! Like everything else practice safety! That way you won’t be a statistic and we won’t have to deal with the lawyers and O.S.H.A.! Propane is bad because it lies on the ground and you may not even smell it until it’s too late! – Bob
Hello from Wisconsin! I have run my engines for a number of years on propane. They should always be run with an "on demand" regulator. This works just like a needle seat and float in a carburetor - it stops the flow of fuel when there is no demand. The on demand regulators can be purchased at your local propane dealer. Ask for model SD made by Garretson Equipment Co. – anon

I agree with Bob saying "The danger of such a setup has been greatly overstated". We all do things that can hurt or kill us daily. How many of us ride motorcycles or fly airplanes? Some of us wouldn't do this but would play with propane. Some of us wouldn't play with propane but would ride motorcycles and fly airplanes. How about putting propane in air conditioners as a refrigerant? Lots of folks do and they will tell you that they would rather take that risk than the risk of cancer using R 134. Both are risky but I don't think any of us would not have air conditioners to eliminate risk. How about going down a narrow winding road meeting a logging or oil well rig truck traveling at hi way speed and meeting them just 4 or 5 feet away? You have no control over their action or condition of their truck. Life is full of dangers. What one may think is dangerous another may not. I've had some people tell me that my engines are the most dangerous hobby they ever saw, but I'm still going to run them in a way that is safe to me. That way may not be safe to others. -- L.D.

Well after a bit more thought maybe the propane hazard is overblown. Look how many engines you see that are weeping gasoline. Generally we don’t seem too concerned. That’s why I converted my Ideal to propane as the vertical intake guide was always dripping gasoline. Later on, a replacement valve guide reduced the drip to almost nothing. Other factors might make a difference if anyone can offer some up. So, I guess propane vapors or gasoline passing by piston rings in a flooding situation in an enclosed crankcase are equally as risky. If anyone can offer more insight on this issue don’t be bashful. -- John

I didn’t say anything about this being overstated and anyone that thinks it is could end up dead wrong! A gas leak is a gas leak no matter how small! In an area where it can collect like a closed building, it WILL blow up under the right conditions. You’re right, there are a lot of things that aren’t safe and leaking propane is right at the top of the list! Propane appliances cost more then natural gas ones because of liability and comparing a flooded gasoline engine to a 20 or 100 lb. bottle of propane with a constant leak is not much of a comparison! -- Bob

Bob, that statement, "The danger of such a setup has been greatly overstated." was copied and pasted. However, I did make a mistake because it was Rob that said that and he is who I was agreeing with. I apologize to you and anyone else I made to think that you said that, you did not. In fact I feel your opinion is 180* from that statement.
Thanks to all who replied. It wasn’t my intent to start a safety debate, but the points brought up are all valid. Thanks again and Happy Holidays, -- Jim


See more photos on the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:29:26 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Ever get discouraged? http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/ever-get-discouraged-9/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/ever-get-discouraged-9/ I just got the flywheels from my 5HP Bulldog back from the sand blaster, having decided to spend a few dollars and save some time. I found that the hub was repaired, and three of the spokes are cracked at the hub, and one where it meets the rim. All this after having taking four months to have a new mixer made because the one with the engine was wrong, and having the mag and ignitor rebuilt, and having about $400 worth of miscellaneous machine work done, and building a cart out of 2x6 white oak, and buying over $200 in parts. The guy that sold it to me said, "it should be no problem getting it running... just needs a few springs and nuts, and she'll purr like a kitten!" I guess I'll have to look into finding another flywheel (fat chance) or getting another one cast and machined. I guess I should have saved my dimes and bought one done. – Chris

Chris, I've found out this hobby has "peaks and valleys". You have to experience the lows to enjoy the highs. Some day you will have an engine to be proud of. Don't give up. -- Dave

I never get discouraged. I’m sunny faced and happy ALL the time! Now...where'd I set that sledgehammer? What size are the flywheels? I ask because I know where there is a pair of them on an old ironworker. If I remember right, they’re about 24-36" across. I’m not sure about the shaft size, but they have nice spoked wheels. They sat on top of the machine to run the gear drive. I figure they weigh at least 130 lbs each, likely more. – Roger

I know what you mean. Sometimes I get so aggravated that I ask myself, "why do I even do this." Then I take a break from my aggravation and start up one of my engines and say to myself, "that is why!" There has been more than once that I have bought a restorable engine, and put more money into it than it is worth to get it restored, then end up selling it to get something else. I guess in the end, if you get what you want out of it, it is well worth the time, aggravation, busted knuckles and $$$. – Tanner

Hang in there Chris. We can feel your pain. I bought a 9E economy and thought it would be an easy restorer. Now I know the bore is real bad. I still need a mag bracket and Webster for it too. What helps me feel better is when I think how things could be worse. A little perspective makes things seem not so bad. I remember a guy I saw in Indonesia last spring. He had no legs and was begging in the street. Whatever troubles I have at work or play are not so bad. Work on something else for a while if you want to. Hang it together with the busted flywheel just to look somewhat complete for inspiration. Trade it to a good friend who will dump more money in it. You can dump more money in one he's sick of too. Post pictures of the Bulldog when it's done! -- Kevin

While working on my drill engine, the cord pulled out and at the time had no idea how to replace it. I put it down, wondering why I even bought the darn thing. I walked over to my Jaeger and tried to start it - no fuel. I had some two-stroke gas, left over WD40, old whale oil and motor oil. That was some of the best fuel I have ever used; it did not foul the plug, the engine ran cooler, one pop and it would get right back to speed, and with the 3 inch steel exhaust pipe it could make real nice smoke rings. Ah, how wonderful these engines are, they will run off most any thing. I certainly could not run that concoction through a new 4 stroke engine. After 30 minutes of great smoke rings and funny smelling exhaust, I felt much better (not because of the funny smelling exhaust) and I was glad to have another project. The Jaeger was so much fun and after all the problems it was worth running it. I imagine most people have had unpleasant times, but in the long run it is worth it and you will have some thing to be proud of. Oh yeah, and the exact mixture of my gas and oil and "other stuff" is now a closely guarded secret! – Mac

Just run your own small business and try to deal with some of the public who are obviously educated FAR beyond their intelligence level. You will be glad to work on your engines that won’t tell you how to do the job. – Ed

Chris, when the seller said, “a few springs and a few bolts and it will purr like a kitten”, that should have been enough to start alarm bells going off that you were being taken. In other words, it should have told you, I need to take a closer look at this thing before I buy any kitty litter. Don't be so anxious to buy engines, as I was when I first started collecting 23 years ago. I was Gung Ho to buy anything that even looked like an engine and of coarse the sellers could see me coming and I learned a lesson the hard way a time or two. For the most part engine dealers are honest and up front with their answers to your questions about the actual condition of what you are buying because they want your trust and repeat business, BUT, once in a while you will run into a "pet store" operator with " kittens" for sale. This is a good hobby so don't let a few bad eggs spoil all the fun and satisfaction and lasting friendships of honest people it can bring. -- Joe

Just a silly idea but why don't you have the flywheel welded? There has to be an old time welder in your area that could braze the cracks up and make them as good as new. – J.

Ooh yea! I have bought many a project and been discouraged once I started on it. A case in point: a John Deere H 1940 that I bought thinking that after little tinkering it would be ok. It needed another block, pistons, head and all the bearings etc. I will say the seller did not know anything much about it and made no comments as to the condition other than it was all there. It’s now finished and running and that is all in the fun of this crazy addiction to old discarded stuff. This little project cost me many $$$$, and a lot of heated discussions with my significant other. but it all washed out in the end. Now moving on to my vertical Famous… -- Denny

Thanks to everyone for their kind words. I wasn't getting discouraged with the hobby, just with this particular engine. Joe was right that I was too eager and probably did not look at this particular engine close enough. Lesson learned. I guess I'll put it off to the side for now while I look into either getting the flywheel repaired or having a new one recast. – Chris

Yeah, just put it aside for a while. You're not on a schedule, it's not a job, and you're not doing this to make money (I hope)! Like the last guy said, consider leaving the hub welded and braze up the spokes. Old repairs are a part of an engines history, and I see nothing wrong with our own (good) work adding to the history. A replacement flywheel will come along when it is time. Most of us will never own the best example of our particular engine (or engines) anyway, so relax your expectations and just do what you can with what you got. Chances are that the brazed spokes will make the engine more conversation worthy than one that is perfect anyway! – Brian

I wouldn’t sweat it Chris. As far as I’m concerned in this hobby you win some and lose some just like any other. Granted there are lots and lots of honest sellers and dealers out there but once in a while you run into the occasional scumbag looking to dump a money pit. It happens whether its engines, cars, etc. In all fairness maybe because of all the paint on those flywheels he really didn’t know they were cracked. I would just set it aside and wait till a replacement one comes along. -- John.

Is there a common flywheel that is close to the correct size and style that you could easily and cheaply adapt and use on the Bulldog until you find or make the right one? Maybe paint it a slightly different shade of the same color as the rest of the engine. – Patrick

Chris: I don't know about size of flywheels, but I do know about getting discouraged on an engine. You can pull them out of the garage and 1/4 turn will start them. Then go to a show and pull all day trying to start up! Is there something to spectators depleting the oxygen level to where the engines won't run? -- Byron
YES! It is fact that the more spectators, the bigger the odds that your engine won’t start. I have a couple that I won’t even try to start if strangers are around! -- Bob

See the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:33:39 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Why slow running engines? http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/why-slow-running-engines-10/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/why-slow-running-engines-10/
Running them slow is a challenge, and all that action happens in SSLLOWWW motion! -- Joe

A belted engine has to run the required rpm's, if not, it's great to see and to hear all the movements in slow motion. – John

It takes an engine in good condition and someone who really knows what is going on to make an engine run slow. I see a lot of engines at shows that are running at rated speed but are not belted up to anything and it really doesn't look that great. But an engine at rated speed doing the work it was meant to do is something else. Most people don't have or bring belted equipment to run, so they like to run their engines slow. It really is an art to get an engine to run rrreeeeaaalllllyyy sssllllloooooowwww. – Lonnie

If it’s not belted up to anything I will run it slow because everything sounds neat and a lot of people say it died and just before it stops, it hits and kind of makes them jump. Not only that, it is not as loud and you can have more engines running at once and still be able to talk to people instead of talking at the top of your lungs. It is a challenge and an art but if I eventually find things to belt up to them then of course I will run it at the necessary speed. – Andrew

You can make anything run fast. The trick is to have a hit and miss governed engine nearly come to a stop before hitting again. And a throttled engine that runs steady at 40 or 50rpm. And besides which is neater to watch run? An engine running its guts out and jumping around, or one running as smooth and slow like a Swiss made clock. – Doug

Also by running slow, they use less fuel and less wear on the engine. It is much easier to explain to people what is happening (hit-n-missing) with the engine running very slow. – John

Running slow is poetry in motion. You can see what is happening. It's the difference between a lazy Sunday drive in the country compared to morning rush hour traffic on the way to work. It's the difference of a kitten purring as opposed to a Heavy Metal Rock Concert. After a lifetime of running full out, slow is nice. When you get older, you'll understand. – Vernon

It's fairly easy to get a Hit and Miss engine to run slow. A throttle governed engine is a little harder. I like to run them at reduced speed, but so they still run free under governor control. A throttle governed engine running with its governor disabled to run slow, takes the personality away from it. But my favorite thing is watching people cranking engines that they tried to get to “Run Too Slow.” Pretty good entertainment sometimes. – Ken

Slow running engines on display around a crowd of people are just normally safer if it’s done properly. I like the challenge of mine running slow and easy with all the controls working. All you can hear are the mechanical noises of the engine with the loudest being the magneto tripping. Not much else nicer than watching a Mogul side shaft running slow. Well, not much, except, I say they are retired, and deserve it. Can they be made to run faster, sure, just ask. -- Paul

A nice long stroke engine like a well tuned Mogul or a Titan, or even a 6 HP “M” will coast along with hardly any noticeable exhaust report. I've had people ask me, “Does that engine ever fire?” When a side shaft Mogul in good shape is running all you will hear is a clicketa of the valves and the sproink of the oscillating magneto and maybe a whisper from the crankcase breather. No problem having a conversation when one is running. Now if I only could get a Fuller & Johnson “K” to run like that – Ken

Running an engine built to run under a load at low speeds looks and sounds neat! As for less stress, actually the reverse is true. In normal running, the most stress on the engine's parts, is at start up, when the engine is working it's hardest to accelerate and make power to get up to speed.
When the engine is running slow, the amount of time the piston, connecting-rod, flywheels, and crankshaft are under maximum stress from acceleration and deceleration are magnified! Due to low speed, compression ramping (the piston slowing the crankshaft as the fuel-air mixture is compressed) and the firing impulse (the sudden acceleration of the piston, con-rod, crankshaft, and flywheels) are at their greatest. This activity, especially when extreme (near flywheel stop), can actually lead to severe metal fatigue, both in the flywheels, and the crankshaft.
There are several engines that will simply not tolerate running under these conditions without destructive failure. One such engine is the WoodPecker engine, especially the 1&1/2 HP and to the lesser extent, the 3 HP. John Smith (a noted and well known authority on the WoodPecker engines) and I had a conversation about running engines too slow. I have seen many engines at shows running very slowly. I have a 1&1/2 Hercules - Economy that will nearly stop. I had commented to John, that I needed to speed the Herc up a bit, as I thought the stresses from running this slow might lead to torsional stress on the crank. John told me that the Hercules engine was quite durable, and I shouldn't have a problem. However the WoodPeckers were another story! He had a complete set of every one they made. They are quite expensive too!
John had also commissioned Dick Shelly (a museum quality model maker) to make a casting kit and model of the make. Any way, John told me that he had run across 5 or 6 1&1/2 HP WoodPeckers with broken cranks. These engines had set up a torsional stress at low speeds, that broke the crankshaft! When the engine fired, the forged crankshaft actually twisted trying to accelerate the flywheels! This twisting motion (Torque) was at its greatest when starting. When the engine was up to speed, the amount of time the crank was under maximum stress was minimal - thousandths of a second in fact. At start, and in a slow running engine though, the amount of time the crank accelerated and slowed could be measured in multiple hundredths, and in severe cases perhaps in several tenths! At the slow speeds, the crank throw would actually lead the flywheel keys by several thousandths! This doesn't sound like much, but multiply that by how many hours the engine runs at a show, times the RPM, divided by approximately 20 (the average amount of turns of the crank, before firing) and that infinitesimal amount can add up to inches in a hurry!
If you want to see a demonstration of metal fatigue in an accelerated state - get yourself a metal wire coat hanger. Simply bend it in the center of the longest section, back and forth for a minute! Not only does the metal get hot (resistance to bending is friction = metal fatigue), but at some point it will fail completely, and it will break.
The same thing happens to the WoodPecker crankshaft - eventually the torsional stresses that build up actually set up a resonance within the engine crankshaft that will break it! John told me that 90% of the breaks occur behind the timing gear. The metal of the crankshaft at that point receives slightly more stress as the crank drives the timing gear.
It just so happened that about 6 years ago at the Jacktown summer show (Bangor PA), there happened to be 2 1&1/2 HP WoodPeckers in attendance! John had his, along with 3 other WoodPeckers of various sizes, and another gentleman had his 1&1/2. I had talked to the old gent about the hazards of running the engine too slow, and was told where to go and how to do it in no uncertain terms. I am not a glutton for punishment, so I went my way. About 2 hours later, John looked me up and asked if I could help him identify a strange noise in an engine he wanted to buy. As we were walking, he told me he was seriously considering having new cranks made for the 1&1/2 HP WoodPeckers, as he had seen and heard of so many failures of their cranks.
We arrived at the engine he was looking at, and it was my nasty exhibitor's engine that John was looking into. Since he already had one, he was going to buy a second and give it to Dick Shelly, to scale the model - 1/4 or 1/5, he wasn't sure of the scale yet. Anyway, the engine was still running, albeit slowly, and as it was running, every time it fired you heard a strange noise! The engine sounded like this: A slight Hiss (compression), click (igniter trip), KA-CHUCK (unknown), ssSSPOP (exhaust) and about 5 or 6 seconds of relative silence as the engine coasted. I say relative, as the cam gear mesh sounds made the engine noisy, with the gear sounds getting louder and softer as the engine turned. John and I stood there a few minutes and listened to the engine. I then said, "It didn't sound like that two hours ago when I saw it before". The old man just looked at John and me, and asked John who I was. "Just a friend who knows a lot" John said, "What do you think?" he asked, looking at me. I was still looking and listening to the engine. I told John "As slow as it is running, it sounds as if it is actually laboring a bit, It isn't coasting smooth like yours" The old man stated that he had shut the engine off earlier, and it was a little stiff.
Just at that point I happened to be looking at the flywheel rim, from directly behind the engine, when it fired. I actually jumped! John saw me move, and asked "What’s the matter with you?" I pointed to the now coasting engine and said, "It moved!" John then said "Well that’s obvious! It fired!" I then said, "NO you don't understand - It moved!" He looked at the engine for a minute too, and when it fired again, exclaimed, “you're right!” When the engine fired, the left side flywheel actually wobbled for a split second when you heard the KA-CHUCK sound! We then shut the engine off by holding the exhaust valve open, and as the engine spun down I watched the timing gears. I noticed the crankshaft gear was worn oddly - some of the teeth were worn to knife edge sharpness. I pointed this out to John as the engine stopped. We looked at the gears, and I noticed a hairline crack in the gear on the crank. John was quick to say, "Gee - a worn Cam drive gear, I didn't thing it could make so much noise!"
I was still looking at the assembly, and turning the flywheel, when I suddenly noticed that the other flywheel kept moving for a split second after the one I was holding stopped.
A close inspection revealed that the grease had melted out of the crankshaft main bearing, next to the cam drive gear, and there was metallic powder all over the place. I said, "Hey John, you aren't going to believe this, but I know what the noise is!" After a few seconds, I told him. The crank shaft had broken, and the engine was still running! The KACHUCK noise we were hearing, was the left side flywheel catching up to the right side after the firing impulse! At first they didn't believe me, so I told John to hold the right side flywheel, as I tried to turn the left. Sure enough, the left side flywheel turned about 1/4" with the timing gear, and the crank throw, piston and rod, as well as the right side flywheel stood still!
Removing the bearing cap told the story - Instead of a clean break, along with the engine destruction that usually went along with it, this engine decided to go a different route! The crank broke in a spiral fracture, from the edge of the crank throw (where they usually break) all the way to the edge of the flywheel! The only thing keeping the assembly together was the cam drive gear - that itself had split, and was in danger of breaking in half! We all knew that it probably was a matter of minutes from complete failure. As there was a good crowd, there was no telling how many people would have been hurt if the flywheel had broken loose!
The 3 HP engines, John told me, had a different problem. He had seen 2 engines that sheared flywheel spokes, due to torsional stresses from running too slow. I have seen a 3 HP IHC 'M' with broken spokes as well. They were all (4 of 6) sheared in the same direction - the crank had out accelerated the rim, and cracked the spokes in one direction. The breaks were detected after the engine (which was turning at about 50-60 RPM), started making what the owner described as a weird crackling noise. He had stopped the engine to investigate the noise, and wiped off the excess grease with a rag that had kerosene on it. After starting and running a few seconds, the owner then again shut the engine down, and when it stopped, noticed the streaks of kero running away from the breaks, which were now obvious. If you must run the engines slowly, inspect often for defects, and listen for signs of trouble. -- Andrew

I can understand the physics of crankshaft stress but in my not-so humble opinion, I think the slow speed crankshaft breaks are more likely caused by the failure to retard the ignition timing to compensate for slower piston speed.
I've successfully run my ZC-52 at less than 120 RPM and my 2 HP F-M "T" without governor springs and haven't had a hint of trouble because I retard the spark to TDC or a little after.
If the timing is set for 15-20 degrees BTDC and the engine is run really slow, the peak combustion pressure occurs well before TDC and this causes a rapid deceleration as the flywheels give-up kinetic energy to force the piston over the top.
Because of the high pressure, after TDC the flywheel has to soak-up the excess energy generated by combustion.
When the ignition timing is retarded to TDC or after, the flywheel is already accelerating due to expansion of the un-ignited fuel/air charge when ignition occurs, just "boosting" the flywheel.
In my opinion, this causes less stress on the parts than if the engine were running at speed with advanced timing and pulling a heavy load. -- Elden

Elden, you are probably right about the timing, however how many people understand how to make the necessary changes? Most people I see at shows just run their engines without knowing why they run like they do. I just wanted to let people know that there is a danger involved if they don't take care. -- Andrew

Maybe we ought to start a thread about retarding the timing of a fast running engine to make it run slow. Come to think of it, there ought to be hints on mixers, mags and other slow-run issues. -- Elden

I think that a lot of good points have been made here. In addition running the timing very late, TDC or a little after, I think that severely restricting the intake air will also reduce "compression" ramping and the resultant excessive torsional stresses by lowering the compression pressure as well as lowering the firing pressure. I have a 35 HP Superior engine with heavy flywheels. It is possible to get this engine to fire very hard at very low speed. It will lunge from nearly stalled up to about 50 RPM or more in one or two firing impulses. I have no doubt that this is potentially damaging as well as dangerous. But with a late spark and the air choked back, it fires very lightly at low speeds and the compression resistance is so low that the engine hardly "bounces back" off compression when it is shut down. With the throttle opened, it will bounce forward and back several times when it is shut down. "Lugging" any engine is to be avoided, but lugging occurs when an engine is given too much throttle and spark lead at too low a speed against a heavy load. Idling is not lugging. There may be lubrication issues when running an enclosed crank, splash-oiled engine very slowly. – Patrick

Engines will run hotter with the timing retarded too, especially throttlers. -- Rob

Your right Patrick, about choking down the air intake on the Superior. In fact on my Superior, I completely shut the air off! Only feed it a tiny amount of propane - just enough to make it run. And on any engine regardless of make, if you retard the timing a little it will hit "softer". For engine collectors new to the hobby, play around with retarding the timing on your engines, if you’re like me and want your engines to fire ever so softly and have them run as slow as possible without worrying about damage. Give it a try! – Doug

Mac, I think part of the attraction of running an old engine slow is an attempt to show how different the old is from the new. Many people long for the "old days" real or imagined. You know, when people had time to stop and talk and actually gave a hoot. Just my idea. -- Dave
Getting a engine to run slow and safely is an art form I'd say. When I mean safely, I’m saying having it run at the slowest speed possible while causing minimal or absolutely no (if that is possible) damage to the engine. I've worked and worked and WORKED on my 6hp M to get it slowed down and I’M still not satisfied with it. It's still hitting too hard at the speed I'm running it at, so there will be some more work to be done. Now my Stover is a beauty at running slow. It almost stops before it fires and takes off. But it doesn’t hit hard like it was going to throw the piston out of the engine when it does fire. Plus if you don’t intend to have your engine belted up to something I think it's best to slow it down. Running fast tends to have the engine bouncing around everywhere and it looks uncontrolled. – Chase

Because I have my F-M ZC-52 engine running at around 120 RPM, I retard the spark to a little after TDC.
I've also had to do some fiddling with the spring-loaded choke on the mixer. What I ended up with was a way to adjust the spring tension. For best idle, the choke is adjusted. For best acceleration and speed running, the needle is adjusted. Balancing these two adjustments is a little complicated but, when it's done, my engine will go from the slow idle to full speed without missing a lick or smoking.
As far as oiling is concerned, with the closed crankcase engines this could be a problem at low speeds. I've had good luck in using 15W-40 oil along with a viscosity extender like IXL or STP. I also run the engine at rated speed for a while every ten minutes or so to throw some oil around. So far, so good.
With the retarded timing and a good hot spark, I can start my engine with a gentle pull on the flywheels. It will start fine at idle when it's warmed-up.
There are problems with getting enough fire from a rotary magneto to run an engine slow. Most mags run out of steam below a couple hundred RPM. If it's an impulse mag, the engine will run slow (especially on impulse when the spark is retarded) but eventually the impulse mechanism will wear out (not to mention that all that clacking is annoying!).
A slow-running engine is a really nice sight and sound to behold. Sort of like being in the emergency stop lane after living in the fast lane for years.
Oh, yes - I took my 2 HP F-M "T" to a neighborhood "corn roast" on Sunday and managed to get it to where I could start it with only a slow pull on a flywheel. I only had to use the crank to spin it a couple of turns to start it cold. The ignitor is set to fire right at TDC and the "beehive" mixer doesn't even have a choke plate. -- Elden

The IHC M engines are a bugger to slow down, especially the igniter type. The rotary magneto will make more power as it spins faster. Before they came out with electronic ignitions, all the hot cars had a magneto for ignition. The main problem with the IHC M is whether the mag can give enough juice to light the charge when running slow.
I have a 3 HP with the rare under shot igniter. By putting a spring on the throttle to close it, I can get this engine down to about 80 RPM if I am very careful with the mixture adjustments, and only if the engine is hot. It will scuzz up the igniter after a while, as at idle the engine tends to load up.
Slowing F-M Z engines can be a real pain, as well. The F-M engines love to work at speed, but are real lousy idlers, unless some steps are taken. Most of the F-M's problems lie with the mixer. It is not really a true carburetor, as it needs to have a restrictor plate at the front of the intake in order to run properly. Therein lies the main problem - the restrictor plate tends to load the mixer with fuel. When the engine runs at speed, this fuel is sucked up and is burned off as the engine runs. When idled though, this puddled fuel builds up, and either ends up on the ground, or in the engine, causing a stall.
There are things you can do to the restrictor to help alleviate the puddling. First, install a stronger spring behind the plate, just enough to keep the plate from flopping loosely. You have to experiment with different springs. Next, see that the plate is in good condition. I have seen some with the center hole worn to the size of a dime, and others with fractured edges - metal fatigue from 60 years of vibration. If the plate is in good condition, I filed 8 small 1/32" wide notches 1/8" deep around the edge of the restrictor plate disc, at equal distances. These notches allow the air flowing past the plate to draw the puddled fuel into the engine, without affecting the operation of the disc itself.
The best idling F-M Z I have seen was a 1&1/2 HP I owned. I could get this engine down to around 60 RPM! I cheated though - I took a carb off a REO cast iron model 552 engine and bolted it to the Fairbanks! It worked like a charm, going from slow idle to 'full speed' with out missing a beat. Rigging the governor and a fuel tank took a little ingenuity, but I got the job done. I reluctantly had to re-install the original carb though, as my grandpa wanted to use his mower to cut the grass.
Oh Well. All kidding aside, throttling engines can be made to go slower a lot easier than the H & M types, but allowances must still be made. -- Andrew

Another way to slow your throttlers way down in addition to retarding your timing is to run them on propane. A small regulator for a charcoal grill is plenty! The secret to running them slow on propane is to feed the engine ONLY propane, NO air! Completely close off all places where air can enter the engine. In doing so you only need the smallest amount of propane to run the engine. I have seen this done to several IHC "M" engines, and they hit with the nicest "ploooomp" you've ever heard. And only hit hard enough to get through the next round of compression. It's worked for me, Give it a try and tell us your experience with propane. OH, by the way! Propane has many more times the BTU's than natural gas! And it is easy to flood an engine with propane, I always start my propane fueled engines with gasoline first. Then change over to propane once they’re running. And remember, When it's running on propane, close off ALL the air! Hope this is of some help, -- Doug

Well I think I have a better understanding of why people like slow running engines. I think I am going to let mine run at its rated speed so it can be belted up to work. Maybe I will have a slow running engine after this one.
Thanks for explaining why! -- Mac Leod

See the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:26:06 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Wet Compressed air for sandblasting http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/wet-compressed-air-for-sandblasting-11/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/wet-compressed-air-for-sandblasting-11/
Could the location of the separators have anything to do with it? I have a bank of four separators located right off my compressor and I have never had that happen. I don’t know if the quantity of separators or their location might make a difference. Just a thought. – Allen

Try this: With a full tank of air, drain the tank of any water. Let the tank sit at rest for 30 minutes and then drain again. Clean and dry both water separators. Don't forget, you will still have water in the air hose. Dry it as best you can. Preferably, hang the hose and let the water drain out and dry. If you can, add another water separator at the blast cab. Let us know what happens. By the way, do you live in a very humid area? – Jim

As said previously, make sure your receiver is thoroughly blown down (drained) and ditto for your moisture traps. Typically, one moisture trap will be located close to the compressor/receiver, but one is needed at the far end of any hose run as more water will condense in the long hose run. I like to have only a short length of hose from the last moisture trap to the blaster. Make sure that you start out with a dry system and hoses. If your receiver has a slug of water in it or your hoses have pockets of water in them, you may not get the water reduced to an acceptable amount at your tool. Moisture traps that are close together don't add much drying as the moisture doesn't condense in the short distance between them, thus is passed on down the line to condense. Long hose or pipe runs condense additional water. Low spots in the hoses or pipes form pockets of water that may overwhelm the moisture traps as your work time accumulates. Have your final trap close to your work. This may help. -- Kid

I had the same problem when I got my cabinet. What I ended up doing was running 150 feet of 3/4 copper air line from the compressor to the cabinet. Then I went and bought a DeVilbiss 3 stage air drier system that is used in body shops. It has a pre-filter then charcoal and then desiccant. I have no water in my air. Another thing is that you need a large air compressor. I have a 7 H.P 2 stage. If it's too small it will run constantly and heat up the air and create a lot of water. Before I did all this I could only blast for half an hour until my cast parts would turn rusty. Now I can blast all day if I want. The desiccant lasts about 1 year with moderate use. – Rudy

Joseph, I ran into the same problem using a 55 cfm pump @ 120 lbs for blasting. I had a filter and water trap at the compressor and also at the blaster. I ended up adding 50' of hose between them to allow the water to settle a little and it helped. That compressor creates a lot of heat and the water couldn’t separate quick enough. The ideal cure would be an after cooler to speed up the process. Perhaps by using a coil of copper tubing in a bucket with cold water flowing into it? Just a thought. – Randy

(The key solution follows…)
I run my air through one inch black pipe with traps at the beginning and end like that shown in the TIP book. I don't usually have any problems unless the humidity is high for days and I do a lot of blasting. -- Paul

The coil of copper in a cold bucket works amazingly well. It is slightly more complicated than just coiling the tubing in the bucket. I built one in a 55 gallon drum and I can sandblast in extremely humid weather. If anyone is interested I can draw a sketch of mine. – Roger
Are we drying air or making whiskey? – Patrick
Same principle - removing condensation - just one difference though - one is more palatable than the other! – Andrew

I live in Central PA and I have never thought it was overly hot or humid here. Then again I am a boiler operator in a power plant so what do I know about hot or humid, everywhere other than work feels air conditioned to me. But, the compressor is upstairs in my shop and I do think it might be a little warm up there for it. I am toying with the idea of running some copper coils thru a window air conditioning unit, it seems like a win-win situation to me, dry air and A. C. in the shop. – Joseph

I’ve been reading about refrigerated air driers and I think it will work. A coil in front of the cold output side, a separator, then a pass in front of the condenser or hot output side to warm the air up a little so it doesn't sweat in the lines, then another separator, and one near the cabinet. I am also going to bring the compressor down stairs, this will make it easier to service anyway. I have always hated changing the oil on the ledge that it is currently sitting on. When I decided to put it up there it seemed like a great way to save floor space but it has become an enormous hassle to work on. – Joseph

I have used an old 80 gallon tank in line just ahead of the blast cabinet. This allows the air to cool before it goes into the water separator, which is just before the sandblaster. Most of the water stays in the compressor tank, or the auxiliary tank, and the last bit stays in the water trap. I empty all of the drains frequently. This works even on humid days, and it's cheap. The extra air tank also allows a longer duration of blasting before the compressor can't keep up. We have used the coil-in-water idea for cooling the breathing air for the sandblasting helmet on big outdoor jobs. We had 50 ft of 3/8" coiled in a cooler with disconnects on both ends. Fill it with 5 gallons of water and a bag of ice and it's like air conditioning, you never want to take the helmet off. Good luck! -- Al

Most of these posts have touched on the problem. Hot air holds more water than cold air. The harder you work your compressor, the hotter the air. Four water traps at your compressor won't help much because they only begin to work as the air cools. The fix: use an adequate compressor, pipe air lines in black pipe (safer than PVC and it doesn't sag). Incline pipe slightly (4" in 50 ft is OK) to drain water away from compressor. Set water trap at least 50 feet away from compressor. When you tee off your lines tee up and elbow down to water trap so the water in the line passes by to the drain leg at the end of the system. Desiccant and refrigerated driers are great too expensive. I've seen some effective systems in body shops where they ran a coil through an old refrigerator. – Dick

Many valid points have been made above and this thread hit close to home where I have a DeVilbis 6.5hp, 17cfm, two-stage compressor on an 80 gallon tank. I used ¾ inch iron pipe to run a sloped air-line across the ceiling of my shop to the bead blast cabinet. At the bottom end of the line as it comes down the wall, I placed a drain valve. Above that, there is a T, which goes into a dryer and then the regulator. After the regulator, another T runs through the wall to a valve and spigot outside for sand blasting. Off that same T, a line goes into the bead blast cabinet via the foot valve. It all works in Florida! You can’t get much more humid than in Florida. Keep the compressor, dryer and line drained! The air is cooled as it passes through the iron pipe and then water is caught in the vertical riser and then any mist is finally caught in the dryer. This may not be dry enough to spray paint with, but I’ve never had a problem blasting with glass beads. – Harry

See my sand and glass bead blasting story at: http://old-engine.com/abrasive.htm

More... CONTINUED]]> Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:22:39 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Old Iron and Young Men http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/old-iron-and-young-men-12/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/old-iron-and-young-men-12/
I wish I knew. As I have posted before, I have a son age 16 that has absolutely NO INTEREST in my hobby. I have tried and tried to get him involved, as has my father, but to no avail. It seems that many younger folks just don't have the interest in the past that we do and I feel that I was born many years too late myself. I would love to have been around in the days of the great tractors and when our beloved engines were in use. I also am involved in Bluegrass music and go to a few festivals each year. And again, no real interest by young people. I would love to have been around to get to meet Bill Monroe, or many others of the music business while they were still alive! -- David

Hey, some younger people get in on it by themselves. I saw a few engines and thought that it would be something worth working for. One year later and a lot of work I had enough to buy my Jeager. I am interested in the way things were done and I think that the past should be preserved.
I also got into this by myself last year and I love it. I was going to shows since I was 6 because of my dad’s Oliver that he bought for the acreage but sold the acreage and he restored it and showed it. That was my first exposure to engines and then one day while I was at a friends house in the city they dug up an FH and an Iron Horse. I decided to get them going for a challenge and then found out that people collect, restore and show these engines. Last show season was great and since then I have gotten some more flywheel type engines. There should be more youngsters in this hobby and I have now just turned 16 (it is even better that I have my driver’s license) I am just about the only young one up here but most parents do not support these type of things. My parents do not pay for any of my stuff, but they are supportive of my new hobby. -- Andrew

So far, my four year old son Daniel has "Old Iron Fever" and I am very glad. He gets so excited when I bring home another chunk of old iron no matter what condition it is in. But, I have to tell you fellows that I started praying for him 2 years before he was born. I asked the Lord for a healthy son and one that would share my interests and the Lord has definitely answered my prayers and more. I don't mean to preach here, I just feel like I have been blessed and I wanted to share my joy with everyone here. Unfortunately, I have noticed already this show season that some of the older folks that have always been at the shows for as long as I can remember, just aren't around this year. This is a sad thing so I can only hope that some of the younger crowd will start filling in the vacant spots at the shows. I will post a picture of our Little Engine Collector below getting his 1 HP Stover "V" ready to run. -- Tony

The shows, the shows are the key. Lots of folks don't know anything about old iron because they've never been around it, and never known there were other people who shared their interests by fiddling with old things. I had always been made fun of for messing around with old things and making them work. It was a joke among my friends and family. I had the Havana engine that I posted about a few weeks ago, and until a friend took me to a show in Fredericksburg and I saw some hit& misses running, I wasn't even sure it was an engine. I think a lot of younger folks just don't know about it because they haven't had the opportunity to be around it. As far as taking an interest and being 16, it might have to wait a few years. My dad liked to garden, I hated it and was busy being worried about what the girls were doing, and NOT being like my dad. Fifteen years later I have 7 acres of vegetables. Now that I'm working on that engine, folks see me excited about it and making progress, and every time I go out to tinker with it, it’s a social event. People want to help, and they ask questions. I get calls asking about what I got done last night and when am I going to get to work on it again... they want to be there. In the rebuilding process, each bolt that comes out is a success. I think lots of people just haven't been exposed enough to have any idea on what to do or how to do it when it comes to tackling things like that. Most people around here don't know what hit & misses are, the same way I didn’t know. I just want to have this thing running something at community events and take it to shows so people get interested. – Matt

I’m glad to see that there are some younger fellows interested in this hobby. I was 60 when I got my first engine and now I am soon to be 66. I have about 45 plus engines, but I’m too old to enjoy them, so most will have to go. I wish that I had started sooner. Keep up the hard work guys and enjoy every day of it. – Sonny

I am 19 and I have been fixing stuff up since I was 12. I still am mostly into Briggs motors, but I do have a 4 hp Novo and a few small tractors (Gibson, gravely, etc.) I try to go to as many shows as I can, but between college and work, it can be tough to get there. Also, I can't afford to go to a lot of the shows because of current fuel prices and the fact that to drive to anything over 3 hours away, my truck probably wouldn't make it. I have a Briggs motor belted to a compressor with a small steam whistle, and it really is fun to see the smiles that that thing can bring in people. It is a wonderful hobby to be in. -- Paul

I went to the Pawnee show Saturday. There were a lot of young people there and at least they were showing up which is different from some shows I have been to. This was the first time for me to go to this show but I will definitely be back next year. -- Ed

Well, I’m sure there are more young people out there than you will find on here. The problem (similar to mine) is that they have no one to show them what this hobby is all about. I started going to fairs a couple years ago but I had to find the engines myself. Nobody in my family was really interested. If we want to find more younger enthusiasts, we have to set up in more places. I was planning to set up at one or two of the cheap entry Car Cruise/Shows. It would be a good place to catch the kid that doesn’t really have an interest in cars but may take a liking to tractors or engines. You never know. I wish that someone could have shown me the engines many years before I found them. It sure has kept me intrigued since I started! -- Frank

I got my first engine when I was 16. It was a 118 Fairbanks Morse given to me by a man who was in the oil business. I'm 25 now and have about a dozen engines. I too was at the Pawnee show and I was pretty easy to spot with my 35hp Superior. I wonder if anyone got a picture of me climbing the flywheels to start it? If you were there and happened to see the 25hp Superior belted to the rock crusher, I was the one that got flung into the air when the magneto fired when it wasn’t supposed to. Luckily I landed on my arse so I only suffered brain damage. -- Doug

I turn 25 years old next week (is it all down hill from here?) I’ve been around engines since as long as I can remember when my parents started in vintage cars in our local club that caters for cars, tractors, steam and engines. I can remember the gents (some sadly departed) encouraging me to ask questions and get involved and I feel my knowledge interest and skill in this hobby is a testament to them. They had me emptying water out of the hopper at the days end. And they had me filling the tanks with just enough fuel to make them run for an hour when then again I’d refill them and start them again. I didn’t realize how pointless it was back then but at the time I loved every moment (and still do). My father and me are pushing about 40 or so engines between us and we've built a new shed recently specifically for engines. I’m looking straight down the barrel at the big age of 30, which is quite frankly scary. I’ve been with the same girl now just over 2 years and I know she wants to go to the next stage (god help me) and I’m starting a new job in 10 days which I’ve been working towards for the last five years... so its all happening! I know for a fact that if I didn’t have the engines I wouldn’t be here! – Adam

Adam I am 60 and it is not down hill yet in fact I think the hill is getting steeper but hey it is fun. -- Joe

Adam your eyes and ears may go, but I don't think we ever get over this old iron disease. Best regards, -- Arthur (age 76)

In the Phoenix, Ariz. area we have a couple of shows that make some exhibits available to grade school field trips free of charge. This is a structured event that makes engine, tractor, and related machinery available to watch. The fourth grade seems to be the age group the schools want to bring as these things fall into their history lessons. Many young people are exposed. -- Gary

Well it is very interesting to see what everyone has said. I am now 23 and have been collecting since I was 14. My parents or family have no interest in any of my stuff but they support me. I really like steam stuff, and gas tractors also some engines. I feel my collection is starting to overtake me because I almost have no time for anything else. I have 2 traction engines, 13 tractors, 7 gas engines and a bunch of other little things but I can’t seem to get enough of this stuff. Sometimes I wonder if I need to go to a doctor. I’m glad the girl I married is OK with all of this. -- Justin

The only time I went to the Mt. Pleasant show, I was impressed at the number of whole family groups that were into tractors. At the daily parades I remember seeing more than one traction engine being steered by a little kid with his Dad (engineering) and Mom and the grandparents standing by on the footboard. Everybody was proud of the kid but the expression on the kid's face was really something to see. It gives you hope that the younger generation just might take the torch from us Geezers and carry it on for a few more generations. – Elden

More... CONTINUED]]> Tue, 11 May 2004 10:43:33 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Golf Carts and ATVs http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/golf-carts-and-atvs-13/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/golf-carts-and-atvs-13/
Dan, there are a couple of ways to look at it. From your prospective those golf carts & lawn tractors are in the way. From my prospective it allows me to buy numerous (large) things from the swap meet vendors and have a place to put them while I shop on. It also allows me to keep my rain gear with me, a place to store my jacket as it warms up, a place to leave my coffee thermos while I shop and more than anything a place for myself and my wife to rest as some of these shows are getting pretty well spread out. Some shows put limitations on the carts going down the vendor isles (I don't have a problem with that) and others limit the times they can be used (late in the afternoon when it gets crowded some shows prohibit carts). I have mixed feelings on ATV's as they seem to get abused by some [I said some] youngsters and can become a hazard. If properly policed, they shouldn't be any worse than a golf cart. -- Bill

I wouldn’t have a problem with older gentlemen who have a hard time walking, driving around with golf carts. There is nothing wrong with that. But for the younger people, I wouldn’t allow it. I mean come on, is it really that hard to walk? You wonder why America is the most obese country in the world, because everything is made too easy for us. Flea markets, in my mind, at the engine shows are out of league anyway. At some of the engine shows I go to, flea market vendors don’t even have anything to do with old iron. I only look at one in every ten booths because everyone else has a bunch of junk. It seems like the shows just attract a bunch of people trying to make a buck. – Tanner

I have done the show and swap for over 20 years and just can't do it anymore without wheels. Always thought I was bullet proof - part of getting old. – Dick

It's funny that this subject came up as I was wondering if golf carts were allowed at the Portland Swap and Sell. I am going for the first time this year and would like to take mine, but I don't want to get there and have to leave it on the trailer. I know I'm going to be like a kid in a candy store when I get there and I'm going to need something to haul around all my "candy". Also, I'm going to have a friend with me that has recently had a hip replacement. He can't do very much walking at all. -- Mike

As for golf carts and ATVs up here in Alberta, there are very few carts at our shows and the people that are using them are organizers and older people. That is fine, but our shows up here are not as big as some of them down there and you can't probably walk around the whole fairgrounds and still have time to show and run your engines. But I am against ATVs that are noisier than some tractors, not all but some and they’re too capable of speeding. As for the swap meets, I agree it is hard to shop for “candy” and have to walk back and forth to the car. Some are too heavy to carry so a swap meet should leave enough room for the carts. – Andrew

My wife is handicapped and we love to go to these shows. In the past, I have had to push her in a wheelchair and with the grass and gravel it was all most impossible. I bought an old golf cart and we now have a great time. At the Portland show you have to register and show a handicap sticker. We did not have a sticker the first year but they took our word. It’s a great show and you will love it. – Bob

At most shows, it is allowed to ride around and at others, it is not. What I do at Portland is get up early and slowly ride around so I can talk to folks and look at their stuff. Near the official opening time, I park the old Hoyt-Clagwell and walk around until after the official closing. Then, I again do a ride-about. So far, no official at the show has commented about it. If they do, I'll just stay parked. After all, it's their show and they have to deal with the safety issues. I agree about kids and ATV's and modern garden tractors. They have a tendency to see how fast they can go. Also, at some shows (like Zolfo Springs, FL), when you register, if you ask, they'll say that you can slowly drive around the show area but to stay out of the flea market area. The only folks who can drive around the flea area are folks with handicapped stickers. -- Elden

Sounds like a good way to go Elden. I may make Portland yet. Walking is out for me, so I will stay away until they resolve this problem. With the additional acreage they’ve got now, one would think something could be worked out. – Rick

I'm hearing a lot of different thoughts here and I'm inclined to go with the idea that a cart or small tractor is a nice thing to have especially if you're buying or trading iron. I think the angle that Dan is taking is the liability factor that club officers and directors face from the possibility of someone getting hurt by a moving vehicle on the club grounds. I also know from being a past president of our local engine club and a past county fair board member and president that it is a growing concern. I enjoy riding my cart at shows like everyone else but it may be necessary at some of these more crowded events to take some precautions. What to do though, that's where it gets interesting. -- Preston

What I find wrong with those who drive around in the carts is that they seem to think they can drive right up next to what they want to see, doesn't matter if it is exhibits or sale items. First of all they block out a large area of stuff that others now can't view and secondly, they seem to think that they have the right away and expect you to move out of their way. If I was walking in the middle of the rows that's one thing but when I am next to a trailer or the like then I feel I have the right to stay put. With the exception of a very few, those people have to walk to get on the cart so they can damn sure park it out of the way when they want to view an item and walk over to it. My friend is not able to walk long distances and does require the use of a garden tractor but when he sees something he wishes to look at he makes sure to park so as not to interfere with others and if someone is in front of him while he is moving. He will either stop and wait or go around, not push his way through. As for the comment about a good way to haul the stuff you bought, why don't you park it and walk. When you buy something put it under the trailer or off to the side and come back and pick all of it up later. I have yet to find a vender who won't hold something to the side for you to retrieve later. – Tim

Very well put Tim! After attending the LeSueur swap, I was not at all happy about the ATVs and scooters there. I am glad to hear that the club recognizes that it is a huge problem. I was only able to see an extremely small amount of what was at the swap meet due to the fact that I am recovering from a knee injury. I couldn't hardly walk around without almost being run over by ATVs and scooters. I realize that some people are handicapped, but I can guarantee that 99.9% of the people running around on ATVs and scooters at the swap meet had no physical limitations. It is my opinion that if a handicapped person wants to attend a show or swap meet, they should contact the club that is sponsoring the event before the event is even held to find out the club's rules regarding golf carts or other means of transportation for the person in question. I know that most shows will be very accommodating and will respect the fact that someone's physical limitations make it necessary for the use of a powered vehicle. If, on the other hand, the club will not allow the use of golf carts, ATVs, etc., you must be willing to respect that those are the club's rules. Insurance for events these days is extremely costly, and all it takes is for one incident where a claim is filed against a club, and the club will get its policy cancelled. I strongly support the use of powered transportation at shows and swap meets for those that truly are handicapped, but in no way do I support "Butt Buggies" for those that are physically capable of walking. Even with my temporary physical limitation from my knee injury, I opted to walk around at the swap meet in lieu of riding around on something. And for those of you that remember my earlier comment about not hardly covering any of the swap meet grounds, it is because I didn't want to get my butt run over by one of the several hundred "Butt Buggies" running around. – Ironman

I totally agree with the last two messages about Golf Carts and ATV's at Le Sueur and other places. I am Handicapped and do need to use a means of transportation to get around at swap meets and shows that are the size of Le Sueur and such. But what I seen at Le Sueur this year was not good. Le Sueur had new rules this year and passed them out when you registered your unit. They give you a registration number and cable ties to put it on. They asked for the lowest speed and headlights to be on at all times when running or moving. Also only one person on an ATV, no exceptions. Well, those of you that where there know these rules were not followed by a lot of people. I personally saw 2 ATVs with 5 people on one and 4 on another. Of course there were no numbers on them either. They either were not registered or didn't bother to put the tags on. Le Sueur does not ask for anything to register other than you sign a sheet with your name and address and Insurance Co. I think all shows should adopt a policy like Rollag has. You bring your handicapped permit and prove of ownership and insurance to the office and they will issue a permit for you to use your transportation unit, whether it's an ATV, Scooter, or lawn tractor conversion. I don't know if they allow golf carts anymore. I didn't see any that I recall last year at Rollag. I have been using an ATV, but I'm putting together a smaller lawn tractor frame with hydrostatic drive and it should be ready in about 2 weeks. I have talked to my insurance co. and told them what I wanted to use it for and they will cover me. It is actually easier to use than an ATV, and easier to control being everything operates by one pedal. And also it is only supposed to carry one person, and would be harder to carry two or more than an ATV. My assumption on this matter is that if something isn't done about this something is sure to happen and then it'll be a little late. – Paul

One solution as I see it, is to have those battery powered rental handicapped scooters available at the show site. Those who need transportation must rent them or walk. I know of one show that does that and there are no ATVs, lawn tractors or golf carts to be seen. – Glenn

Where do bicycles fit in? I truly enjoyed mine at the last Tulare show as my old feet weren't made for walking. It is about the biggest show I have been to. – Gary

A little bitty HONDA EXPRESS moped with a basket on the front is the ideal butt buggy. It's light, quite maneuverable, only one person can ride at a time. Only problem is, they are out of production and VERY hard to find. – David

I don't personally like the unnecessary use of a cart or ATV. I am only 19, but I see no problem if the machine is a unit on display as well or if someone truly in need is riding one. I do not have any problem with an antique rider or the like being used. -- Paul J

I have my butt buggy for one reason, and one reason only. In '95 my wife and daughter were in a nasty head-on that wasn't their fault. To this day my wife can only walk short distances before her hips hurt her so much she has to rest, and it gets worse as the years go on. At first she was really tickled with my cart and we could go to a show and enjoy ourselves without her having pain. But over time it got to the point where when we went to a show there would be someone we don't even know make a comment about how lazy we were and how those "damn butt buggys" shouldn't be allowed. Well, this embarrasses her so now she doesn't want me to take it when we go to a show. My point is, I wish people wouldn't judge by looks. Yes, there are a lot of people who don't need these butt buggys to enjoy a show, but how do you know. You sure can't tell by looking at them. This is the same reason I won't go to a show that doesn't allow parking by my display. Even though my back is fully healed, the rods and screws have fused into the bone properly, the nerve damage can't be repaired and I live on pain pills, can you tell that by looking at me? So, I'm not complaining, this is my lot in life and I'm trying to accept it, just asking people not to be too quick to judge. And I hope you have compassion and use this post, and others, when you decide to make you're rules. Don't limit it to just those who have a handicap permit, there may be some like my wife and I who both feel that there are those who need the spaces more than we do and as we live on a small town it's not too much of an issue. But going to a large show where everything is so spread out is different. Consider accepting a medical report if the person can present it. – David

Some shows are so large that in order to see the whole thing you must have some form of motorized transportation. I suggest that the show organizers adapt to the needs of the public, so that able bodied walkers, and us old farts can both be accommodated. Further, I and many others really enjoy seeing all the varied "butt buggies" etc. If you tell us we cannot ride around, well fine, we will just stay home. – Hank
It seems to me that no matter how many people respond to this thread with their support or complaints on butt buggies, regardless of what they ride, that this is a waste of time and effort. Because, until show sponsors / clubs make some hard and fast rules and enforce them on what is allowed on the grounds, that this will only get worse and all the complaining won't help at all. – Joe

The purpose of this thread and all threads is to give everyone a chance to voice their opinion. Maybe if enough people become more aware of both sides of this issue something could be done. I talk to the directors at the shows I attend and express my point of view. If more people would do the same something may get done. Hopefully there will be a compromise that will be agreeable to people on both side of the fence. – Dan

The Rough&Tumble Museum that runs the big Thresherman’s Reunion in Kinzers, PA has instituted a new policy for butt buggies, and it’s about time! Last summer's show was a real pain to go to as the problems with mopeds and ATV operations actually made it dangerous at times, especially in the small engine exhibit. Hopefully they can enforce their rules, and make the show 'more better' as the Amish say. The elderly and people who have a need, should certainly be able to use their conveyances, however the excess use of 4 wheelers, especially by un-attended kids definitely needed to be addressed. I hope their new program, if enforced, works out to all the show-goers advantage. -- Andrew

I too was at the LeSeuer 500. For the record I have no problem with someone who is disabled riding, but the vast majority I saw were not. Even for those who are, let’s keep it reasonable like a lawn tractor or a golf cart, NOT an ATV with a 6 ft. wide snowmobile trailer behind it. And no, he was not disabled or hauling for hire. As far as the argument that you need to drag a trailer up and down the aisles to haul an engine you bought, hire one of the people that are there to haul. Spend 3 bucks and save the hassle of dragging your trailer around. If you just want to haul your raincoat and small purchases buy a hand cart and a couple plastic storage boxes with lids. That’s what I do and it works fine. If I buy something too big and heavy for the cart I hire it hauled back to my truck. I would also support the idea that a state handicapped permit would be required to drive a "butt buggy" at the shows. Or invite an electric wheel chair rental business to come in. A large show I attend does this and everyone is happy. Those who need to ride can and the rental company does a big business. – Dave

It's beginning to look like show organizers should start planning for an increasing number of baby boomers and beyond, and that may mean laying out the grounds to provide enough space for carts/buggies as well as attendees who walk. And maybe some rules of the road for those who drive, much the same as driving on the highway. Meaning designated vehicle-free paths, designated driving and parking zones for the buggies, etc, and strict enforcement of their rules. If the show organizers don't start doing this soon, they will be inviting a liability feeding frenzy. Personally, I like the smaller shows where everybody talks to each other, and all displays are within easy walking distance. And where, when you're unloading, people go out of their way to help you, and if you buy something heavy, you can back your pickup next to the purchase during a slow time of the day, and half a dozen people will help you load it into your truck. – Harvey

Thanks for this great subject, it has changed my opinion some. When I go to a show I hope to see old "stuff" so my best choice is to see butt buggies made from old garden tractors and hit and miss engines or whatever regardless of whether the driver is disabled or not. Now I see the great need for accommodating golf carts or whatever to get the less mobile of us around the show. (I hate 4 wheelers because they are too fast, noisy and are abused too often.) I suspect that some shows are going to have to limit what can come in simply because of the sheer volume of people they attract. Golf carts and 4 wheelers are just too big. The personal scooters made today are just amazing at getting people around. Let's hope we can all come up with a workable compromise so people like David and his wife can still come and enjoy these shows. We don't want to lose anyone. Again thanks for a great thread. -- Mike

Elden's Hoyt-Clagwell:


More posts including photos... CONTINUED]]> Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:58:05 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Crazy Magneto Prices http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/crazy-magneto-prices-15/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/crazy-magneto-prices-15/
It's sad when a magneto can cost more then the engine it goes on. With the price of some magnetos I'm surprised the Chinese haven't started making them and selling them cheaper. – Vernon

Seems like I've bid on hundreds of Wico EK mags and I'm always outbid. Some people are paying close to $200 for mags that are "untested". I don't get it at all. – J.O.

Time is money and I can go to work on my day off, make overtime, come home, and buy a mag on eBay for $200. Or, I can wait four months, turn down the OT, pay $30 for gas, drive 3 hours, go to an engine show, walk around 5 hours, and maybe find one for $160 and then drive home 3 hours. If all I wanted was the mag, or I need it fast, eBay makes a lot of sense. – Bill

I paid $225.00 for my EK, but it was guaranteed by a noted mag guy. It seems like it was a decent investment, but by this time next year they will probably be bringing $300.00 -- Eric

Well, I agree, time is money and if you are looking for a deal you probably aren’t going to get it on eBay, but, if you want a mag you can most definitely find one there. I would rather find and pay for one (OUCH) even if it is painful, than waste my time looking all over Hell's half acre for one. Anybody who thinks this is an inexpensive hobby had better give their head a shake. There are some serious dudes involved in this hobby with some serious green in their pockets. I guess that is what makes it interesting for those of us that are financially challenged. You’ve got to keep your wits about you and get a lucky break now and again and then you can do okay against the BIG boys. Besides that, after awhile in this hobby, it isn't really about having all the engines that you can get your hands on because you can never have them all. It's about meeting a lot of good people and having some fun along the way. I'd have to say that this is my 2 cents worth, but I don't want to waste the 2 cents. I might need it for that next mag! – Alex

Before I got my first engine I went to an engine swap meet just to learn what I could. There were maybe 15 guys selling and no vendors. There was this man with Wico EKs for sale at $90 a piece. Although new to this, I knew this was a heck of a deal. Of course i had no engine and no need for one but it brought to my attention that there are still real good deals out there. If there is a man out there from WA who was at the Volo County Fairgrounds this past summer with 3 engines for sale and a few Wicos cheap, thanks for offering a fair deal. It is not too common that this happens. – Mac

It’ not my intention to tick everyone off here, but if these mags were lying everywhere you looked they'd be less expensive. (NOT cheap --there is rarely a CHEAP mag that will stay cheap very long!) If people were not willing to PAY the price they'd be SELLING for less. By the way, have you ever tried to repair these things? I hope your time isn't very valuable. A proper job on most mags is at least a half days work with the right tools. If you want it to look pretty, that'll be extra. -- Craig

If you're buying a magneto on eBay, you'd better get two because you may need to combine them to get one that works. And don't break off a screw when you're taking it apart- things can go downhill fast! If things go okay, maybe you'll have a good one after a week or two of your spare time. Some eBay mags are sold by children who don't package very well. If it gets broken in shipping, good luck! – Kid

I gave up on eBay mags. Marks magneto and a few others like him sell their mags with a warranty for about the same price as an eBay mag that might be junk – Kris

I can tell you these are normal prices. You are lucky to live in the States where there are plenty of mags around. When I need a mag it will cost me an average $35 for shipping and when the mag needs a 100% repair, I have to go to one of the few mag repair places here in Holland. Parts and labor cost around $200-240. How much will my mag cost? – John

Just remember, there's no shame in running a buzz coil, or a battery/igniter system on your engine. That's what the farmer did when the mag went belly up. True it may not be original, but it is a heck of a lot cheaper. Save the mag money and buy another engine, (maybe 2 depending on the cost). If nothing else, it will buy you time to look for a cheaper mag. – Vernon

I am not irritated by the prices, because I choose not to pay them. What I am irritated by are those individuals that have many more Wico EKs than engines. I have seen comments like, "I've got 8 or 10 on the shelf, maybe I should sell 'em.” and they don’t ever part with them except at the ungodly eBay prices. I know we have all seen good running engines sold without the Wico EK, because the buyer could get more for the engine and EK separately than together. This is what bothers me. The high price of mags is causing engines and mags to be separated and its all about the $$$$. I am not in the league of many of the engine people that read this list that have or have had 40, 50, or even hundreds of engines. I only have 3. Two run and the other will soon. One is running on the battery and coil because I cannot find a Wico EK that is reasonable to me. The engine is a Stover CT-1. Cute little engine, but it was a basket case when I got it - head cracked, trip bracket cracked, trip finger cracked, gear teeth missing, no EK so it cost me $100 (last year). I got it running and I would love to put an EK on it, but $200-$300 for the EK seems unreasonable to me. To each his own, but if everyone stopped paying the high prices, the price would drop. Demand does drive the price. Anyway, I'm off my soapbox now. Oh, and if anyone has an EK they would sell me at a good price, let me know. Thanks. – Bob

What does everyone feel is a fair price for a EK right now this year? I say about $175 for an un-rebuilt working mag. – Jon

$175 sounds like a good deal to me, but it would have to be the all brass case and probably a little less for one that has the zinc cover plates. -- Frank

A person's "fair price" is generally based upon prices they have seen an item selling for. If all EKs were selling for $300, a "fair price" would be $300. I guess my gripe is that the cost is being driven by some unseen "demand", despite the fact that all parts are still available to make one-either one or two coil, brass covers or not! It's not like EK's are a vanishing species. Maybe I can't find a working original, but if I can find most of one and fix it with replacement parts, has its value diminished or increased? I can understand certain mags being high where parts must be machined, cast, etc, but an EK? As stated earlier in this post, you don't need an EK to run the engine. But you need it for originality. What would people say if sparkplugs were $200-the engine won't run without them either! Anyway, perhaps I live in a fantasy world and wish people would treat each other like they like to be treated-fairly, and honestly, and without trying to maximize profits. These engines are great fun and I love 'em, but they are just stuff. In the long run, my happiness does not depend on owning an EK for each engine and having 10 spares on the shelf. Let's ask how many people have more EKs than engines? I think you would be surprised at the number still around or being created. Why the high cost? I still don't know. Engines are being taken apart so that more $$$ can be made. Like I said, I have a working Stover CT-1 without an EK. I've got it right at $145 plus my time in it. If I buy a $300 EK, I now have $445 plus my time in the engine-Could I sell it for $450-$500? Maybe, but if I want to make money for my time, I would need to sell it for $600-700. Could I do it? Maybe if I wait 10 years. I just don't see why the high cost of the EK's. In the meantime, my $$ goes mostly to making sure that my children have the best I can afford for them. I'll pay $300 for something they need without flinching but refuse to pay that much for an EK. I may not have much money, but am quite content - for I am building up my treasures in heaven, not earth. I realize I may be ranting and raving to some, and I apologize. But the price of EKs is a bur in my saddle and has been so for a while. It started several years ago when I was talking to a fellow that said he bought "common engines like the Cushmans for $100-150 to take off the EK and scrapped the rest of the engine" He said he was making good money selling them. I don't like to hear of engines getting scrapped I guess. -- Bob

I talked to Mark from Mark's Magneto's while at the Coolspring show and he is manufacturing completely new EK's. I ask him about it and he said he could build a new one cheaper than he could repair some of the junk sent to him for repair. As I recall he was asking about $300.00. – Keith

I do on occasion sell Mags, I don’t do it much because the price for “Barn Fresh” Mags of all types make it impossible for me to purchase one and then put the time and parts into making the mag a piece that I will warranty. Just for the sake of argument though, let’s say I pay $150 for a eBay/swap meet EK, it is advertised as “Hot” and sure enough it will shake the devil out of me, but on further testing I find that the left coil is in fact open and both need replacing. For your information, this is very common because a bad lead side coil will not stop an EK from sparking, but it will just keep it from starting and running an engine. So, I am out $150 for the Mag, now I am out $60 for a set of coils and another $20 for the rest of the rebuild kit. The tag looks like junk and the front and rear are zinc, so there goes another $30. Plus, the armature pin and bushing is worn so there’s another $15. Lets not forget the 3 hours of shop time (the US small business administration lists electrical repair as a $25 an hour business), so that $75 labor. Add $10 for postage and the $150 plus $105 for parts and $75 for labor. Let’s see, that’s $340. How much of a loss do I need to stand to make this a fair deal? – Ted

My original post was in amazement at the prices some mags are bringing, as barn fresh. As Ted stated, you can sink good money into making a mag a piece you can sell with confidence. Been there and done that. My amazement was at the price that is paid for something that may need much more work or dollars to make it dependable. Obviously, some folks just happen upon mags, don't need them and truthfully advertise them on E-bay. It's the prices that they bring not knowing fully what it will take to make them dependable. I think what the mag people charge for a rebuilt mag, is very reasonable, considering their time and parts. They must sell a mag for an advertised price. Some mags they probably don't break even, and some they make a buck on. My point is, if they had to pay the eBay prices for a core to rebuild, the mag prices would be ever higher. If I see a mag on E-bay and look at it, normally I see the same 3-4 people bidding on it, which leads me to believe mags are being hoarded up, for profit purposes and not because they need that mag for their engine. The reason I started looking on eBay for mags was hunting a bargain. I, too have seen people buy an engine, take the mag off and sell the engine without it. It's a good possibility that one day, I'll see and engine I want, less mag. or have a friend in the same shape. What few I have are saved for the avid collector or friend, who I can help get their engine running. I'm not in this hobby for the money, just fun and the satisfaction of seeing someone and their engine be a part of our hobby. – Pat

Well said, Pat. I have actually had people look at rebuilt (to like new) EK's that I had priced at $225 with a warranty, walk down the isle and pay $175 for a barn fresh one and then pay me $150 make it work. This is what I just can't figure out. – Ted

I also work on early (pre 1969) Harleys. If you price a Joe Hunt mag for a Harley, it’s $1100. Yes you read that right one thousand one hundred dollars. And this is a very simple mag that uses the Fairbanks-Morse head (common part). Check the price on a mag for a V-8 Ford from Vortex roughly $2000.00. Mags are expensive! $350 for a mag that is out of production (EK) is CHEAP!!! – Patrick

I bought two Webster “AL” mags, both with brackets on eBay one month ago one for $137. There were two on there and I was only going to buy the one but no one was bidding on the other one so I bough the other for $125. I did not need two but at that price I could not pass it up. I have a friend that needed an AL mag so I just gave it to him, I figured that I bought the first one for about half of what it was worth so I did not loose any money. I am in this hobby for the engines and the people. I have made some great friends and perhaps some one will help me out some day as well. – Kris

My turn, although as long as this thread is, no one will likely read it! Face it. As time goes on, the prices of ALL engine/tractor parts are going to go up. I know a man who was at Waukee years ago, and was offered all the NEW EK mags he wanted for $25 each. They were leftovers from the Ottowa Engine Works that a man had bought after they went out of business. Don has told me many times how he wishes he had bought them all, but that was over 30 years ago! No, I won't pay the eBay prices for mags. NO WAY! I'd go to Ted and get one from him that I know would work. He is a good friend and an excellent mag/igniter man, and I know I'd get a good part for a fair price. Everybody finds good deals now and then, but don't complain when you must pay a price for the part you need, be it a mag, igniter, flywheel, etc. I wish I could buy EK mags that work for $75 or $100 too, but if I did, I'd just sell them too, for a profit. I have also given mags to people that I could have sold, but felt it was better off with them than me, since I didn't really need it. I have been lucky enough to see some of the work Ted does in his shop, and you would be amazed. I think you’re better off to get one from him (or someone like him) than to buy one barn fresh every time. -- David

As someone said earlier, value is what the market will bear. Beyond that, eBay hasn't created the phenomena of the feeding frenzy. Have you ever tried to buy an engine at an auction? I mean of course a real life auction. It's no wonder auctions are so popular among sellers. You can put a nice engine up for sale at a show for a reasonable price and get no lookers much less takers. Meanwhile the same thing but rough as a cobb brings twice as much at auction. I'm not putting down auctions either because I still like them, especially eBay. Heck, I would rather get outbid from my comfy chair than drive 80 miles to Beiler's Auction and stand around in the cold mud all day just to come home with an empty truck. Anyway, in a few years we will all be griping about not buying all those "bargain" $200.00 EK's. -- Lee

The original thread... CONTINUED]]> Wed, 18 Feb 2004 02:59:04 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Insurance on Engines and Tractors http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/insurance-on-engines-and-tractors-16/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/insurance-on-engines-and-tractors-16/ I was talking to my insurance agent today concerning insurance on my engines and tractors. And as I understand it, If you think your homeowners insurance will cover them, you are probably wrong. She said that since they are antiques and cannot be easily replaced, they are not insured under my home owner’s policy. Surprise! She said that she must secure a policy with an underwriter that specializes in heirlooms, wine collections and other irreplaceable things. The reason I got to thinking about this is not so much from fire or theft, but what happens if I get in a traffic accident and lose or severely damage an engine or tractor.
A few years ago, a guy lost his beautiful Rumely 30-60E Heavyweight when the tractor slid off the hauler’s trailer. Almost every casting on the tractor was broken or cracked and insurance did not cover a thing. A hired hauler must have special insurance added to their policy, as normal cargo insurance will not cover antique equipment - period. It would be a good idea to check your club’s haulers’ insurance as most all policies state that antique equipment will not be covered.
What have you done to insure against the worst scenario or do you not worry about it? --Mark

I've asked my homeowners’ insurance agency about it and they always say they are going to look into and get back with me with what kind of policy I need, but I have yet to ever hear anything back from them. I guess it's time to follow up with them again. – Tom

That type of coverage is called "inland marine" and it costs a fortune! Half the insured value of your homeowners' policy will cover contents. Jack up the insurance on your house and/or out buildings as high as your agent will allow and TAKE PICTURES so you have proof. – Craig

What is an antique? Anything that is 100 years old, or older. So keep the word antique out of the policy. -- Roger

The definition of antique varies depending on what you are talking about. I have always taken the definition of motorized antiques to be 25 years old. In Connecticut when your vehicle turns 25 years old you are eligible for "Antique Plates", but in reality there is no set mark as to what an antique is or isn't. – C.J.

Well as far as my steam engines and tractors go, I have the high value ones listed on my farm policy at only partial value. Anything of much value has to be listed on the policy. As far as gas engines go, I don't have much on them. After all, if you insure all this stuff at full value it will cost you a small fortune. I believe all insurance companies are in business to make money and that they will. It is just a matter of risk and how much of it are you willing to take. We have probably stumbled onto the reason many nice items aren't seen at shows any more. And yes, I have placed some of my property on poorly equipped trailers with questionable drivers, but this doesn't happen as much as it used to. Some of these guys figure they are like a D-7 Cat and if it falls off the trailer you just drive it back on and go. Seems some of the shows may shop around for cheap truckers. – Ken

I have an extra on my homeowners’ insurance for the engine shed for theft and fire ( the fire has to come from the outside ) and they don't pay me more than $20.000 max. It's the same for the antiques and ancient art objects in the house, you have to pay extra for it and they want pictures and specifications. At shows I have insurance for $2.500.000.00 when something happens because of my engines ( for example a flywheel flies into the crowd ) but when someone tries to stop a flywheel by hand on a running engine it's his own responsibility. On the road, I have nothing for my engines and trailer if I lose them. It would cost you a fortune and you have to fill out a form for every single trip. – John

My local insurance agent insures my tractor and engines at whatever dollar price I set. I insure them for whatever their going value is and right now I am carrying over $20,000 insurance on my toys. That way if something catastrophic happens with traffic or fire or storm, since I live in a tornado alley, I will at least have some money to buy something to replace them. -- Rodney

Well Rodney that’s all fine, but the last Rumely F I saw sell went for over $30,000 and it didn't even run, Add a couple more Rumely's at $12,000 to $14,000 and a couple of steam engines at $12,000 to $14,000 and a few gas engines at $500 to $7,000 and you soon can't afford it! Barring falling off the trailer on the freeway, there isn't much that can happen to them that will completely destroy them, so I have elected to take some risk. It isn't like they’re a matter of life or death. It’s just a hobby and all hobbies have their risks. Look what happened to the Stock Market – Ken

I would be interested and I'm sure many others would be also, in knowing what this $20,000 of ADDITIONAL coverage is costing. I've priced Inland Marine, I'll take my chances. – Craig

Ok guys- I'm going to write a small book here. Insurance is a lot like cell phone packages. One company offers lower rates, but when you read all that small print, paying their so-called lower rates will most likely cost you more in the long run. My wife is an underwriter for a very well known insurance company. We (of course) have our personal insurance through that company. I have not purchased any "special" policy to cover my engine collection, because my engines ARE covered through my homeowner policy. Even though I rent storage for them away from my home, they are still covered as "personal belongings" under my policy. It doesn't matter that they are antiques or hard to replace. You can, in most cases, set an amount of coverage for your personal belongings. I believe it is referred to as "Stated Amount". Sure, it will cost you a little bit extra, but it really isn't that bad. Your best bet is to try and contact your insurance COMPANY (not your agent) to find out what they will and will not cover. Of course, take a look at your policy first to see if you can decipher it for yourself. In most cases, insurance agents don't really know as much as you think they do. AND, if they can con you into buying extra insurance that you don't really need, it's more money in their pocket. Every company has different "rules" on their policies, so take a good look at the policy you have. You might be in for a big shock as to what you ARE and what you are NOT covered for. – Ironman

I had this conversation with my S.F. Insurance man about 2 years ago and he said that all my toys are covered under the Homeowners’ buildings & structures & contents section. I have a stated amount for this on my policy and it is more than enough to cover my small collection including the buildings. Theft is also covered on anything outside on my property locked up or not. His quote was, "Locks are for doors, not for tractors". I do keep my engines, lawn mowers and 4 wheelers locked up to prevent any wanna-be thief from being tempted. I would be quite upset if I ever need to use my insurance and I was mislead by my insurance man. Thanks for starting this thread Mark, it is a good idea for every collector to know their insurance coverage. -- Tony

Ironman, that's interesting to know! I have asked my insurance man in the past about the homeowners’ policy covering my engines and I was told that I had to buy another policy. If I wanted coverage on the road, I needed to buy trip insurance. The quote that I got was approximately 10% of the value of the engine. That was for 1,000 miles and if the trip was farther it would be more yet! I told him that I apologize if I look stupid! I figured I'd take my chances on my own, as the trailer insurance took care of the liability. I'll do a little checking with the company. If it turns out that there may be another way, I may ether get another agent or wring this ones neck! Thanks for the insight, -- Charlie

Ironman is 100% on the money in everything he has said. Most insurance agents knowledge of insurance ends with the percentage of premium that their commission is. And since they have to justify their agent loss ratio, agents LOVE selling Inland Marine coverage. READ your homeowners policy! Most states now require plain language, so policies are a lot more readable than they ever were. NEVER accept the first answer from a carrier, unless you are completely satisfied with that answer. Your agent doesn't work for you, and he will sacrifice you in a heartbeat to protect his relationship with a carrier, that's where his income comes from. Any agent who tells you the only way he can cover you is with Inland Marine has just told you that you NEED a new agent. A quick test to determine how good an Agent is; Ask who reinsures the policy that you are about to buy. A competent agent can answer the question, and the correct answer will be another insurance company. Any agent who cannot answer that question is wasting your time, and probably NOT selling you the correct product. Disclaimer: I have bought insurance, worked for Insurance carriers, and investigative agencies that de-license insurance agents, as well as investigate insurance fraud. I am probably a lot more conversant with insurance than the average person, and well aware that under NY State Law, an individual can defraud a carrier, but a carrier cannot defraud an individual. – Franz

My local insurance agent tells me that at home, my homeowners insurance covers me. When I'm at a show, my homeowners insurance covers me. The only time that I am not covered is while I am in transit and then, my auto insurance will cover the trailer, but not what I'm hauling. – Kevin

Let's say you have a $100,000 homeowners’ policy. The policy will automatically cover "contents" for half the face value of the policy unless you have very expensive "replacement value" coverage. In the event of a TOTAL loss you will get $50,000 to either refurnish your house or your shed. The insurer won't care if you buy plasma TV's or engines. To them, contents is contents, which is why I said earlier, jack up the insurance on your house as high as your agent will allow. In the long run it's still the cheapest way to protect yourself. And, don't underestimate what your auto policy will cover either. Auto policies cover many things you wouldn't even think of! – Craig

A few years back I was involved in a crash while pulling my trailer, I also was under the impression that the trailer was covered while being pulled by my insured vehicle. I WAS WRONG. But the contents were covered by my homeowners’ insurance for up to 10% of the value of my policy. I now have a new trailer and a separate policy on it. Each insurance company may be different. --- Allen

I go for the company who insures the whole ball game. Home owners, auto, property liability, everything. I also do the same for the business. If my car gets into trouble on my property, who pays? Let the insurance company decide. If an employee gets hurt driving my truck, who pays? Workman comp or auto insurance, let them decide. I do not like finger pointing about who may be responsible. If you ever have problems from an insurance company it will probably be from finger pointing. – Al

Insurance is always a HOT topic when it comes up on the SmokStak. Evaluate your own cautions, cares and concerns and see your agent if something doesn’t add up. -- Harry

More on the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:48:24 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Original Condition - Where do you draw the line? http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/original-condition---where-do-you-draw-the-line-18/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/original-condition---where-do-you-draw-the-line-18/
Paul you just opened a can of worms! – Marty

Can of worms is a good description. Original, to me, in the engine business, would be, as shipped from the factory, un-altered. The other can of worms is the definition of "RESTORED". To me, Restored would mean replacement of any worn parts, or coatings with closely matched parts or material to what the manufacture used. Engine repaired, and running could mean that available parts were used to make the flywheels move. I agree that we need a standard to identify the condition of an engine. Most people are basically honest, but in your case, I think “original” does not apply. – Pat

Well, Paul I consider an Engine ORIGINAL if it has its original paint on the flywheels and block, which are of course the main engine components. Just another opinion. – Larry

I think it is funny, sad and dishonest when an ad reads "Original" condition, except for cracked head and patch on cylinder, flywheels wobble only a little bit and it has a different mag. There are very few "original engines". I would classify these engines as being equipped as they left the factory with little or no mechanical wear and a majority of the original paint. Several years ago, a "heavyweight" Avery tractor arrived at our show. It was only used one day and then put away in the barn. It was as close to original as I think a piece of equipment could be. I know of one dealer that calls a restored tractor as one that has at least 50% of it's parts and a running tractor is one that can be turned over (regardless of the length of the bar needed to do so). He calls extreme pitting in bearing journals as a better place to hold oil. You be the judge. If you agree with him, I'm sure he would be happy to sell you something. So I guess as always, you have to measure a person’s integrity when they give a description. The word "except" should never be used in the same sentence as "original". I guess it is good they at least tell you the "exceptions". Many won't. As in anything "buyer beware" and this hobby is no different. There are crooks out there who only want your money and they don't care if you don't know the difference. Many "original" engines have been sold to unsuspecting customers, only to find out they have been duped. Normally, if it is too good to be true, it is even a better lie. As the dollars increase in this hobby it will bring dishonest sellers to the surface. My 2 cents. --Mark

My previous post was off track from your original question pertaining to your engine. I guess I needed to vent. You asked whether or not to call your engine original after some repair. I guess I would say, if it is not original from the factory, then it is not original. Like in my last post, there are very, very few original engines. The fine line would be if someone changed the plugs or igniter points would it still be original? Definition of original is no. If the paint on your engine is original, I would call it original paint. The rest I would clarify up front what you fixed and not call it original. If the paint is not original but repainted as close to original as possible, and all the parts are in “as new” working order, then the whole engine would be classified as "restored to original condition". They are even very few of these "restored to original condition engines". It takes months if not years to do one of these. All gears must be as new, the bore must be as new, all widgets and gadgets must as new. I guess the point I am making is, a good running engine is a good running engine and should be marketed that way. An "original" engine is near impossible to find and probably belongs in a museum. A "restored to original" engine is worth the undertaking, as the joy you will get from accomplishing such a feat will make you proud and if needed, could be marketed as such. I guess I am up to 4 cents now. -- Mark

What about if it is missing 50% of the original paint? That is not how it left the factory. No different than if it was missing the original mag. That’s just my way of looking at things. – Allen

An engine is only in its original condition between the end of the assembly line and it's first use. Anything after that is in a different condition to how it was supplied from new. Unless you are buying or selling an engine, this is a pretty irrelevant point. If it is one of your own engines that you have lovingly restored, or not, yourself, then as long as you are happy with the finished result, does it really matter? You restore it to the degree and level of completion of which you yourself see fit, so at the end of the day, the finished product is exactly what you intended. If it is a sale or buy item, then a list of what repairs/modifications have been done gives the buyer a basis on which to make an informed decision as to whether they wish to buy. – Matt

I call my engines "Barn Fresh" and have pondered many times, if I should "RESTORE" them. Sure it's good to look at a nice shiny engine, that someone has "RESTORED" to Better than ORIGINAL. To me "Barn Fresh" Original has more value than the Restored. -- Gary

Does anybody know of shows that give prize ribbons for engines? Around here they judge tractors and award different types of ribbons/trophies and on engines they do a slow rpm test. I’m not sure if they get anything, but I was just wondering what other shows do -- Sonny

I have heard of trophies and ribbons for engines, but I’ve never participated in a show where they did it. Twenty years ago I was at a show that said they were going to do this, but my trailer was loaded and I was gone before it happened. Many shows, ours included, give a ribbon to each exhibitor or member who registers at the office. It is not given as a prize, but as a thank you from us for coming and a means to identify who is exhibiting in the crowd. At our show, and most, it shows you are a participant in putting on the show, and you get one whether you have a Maytag or a Springfield. Competing is not part of it. Any show that wants to encourage competition amongst exhibitors is looking for trouble. The neat and super rare engines always attract a crowd and are a very important part of any show, but the common engines have huge appeal because they are what most collectors are willing or able to own, or what they identify with. Even the guy with the nicest stuff probably owned an Economy or an M at one time and remembers when they were starting out. I got out of collecting one cylinder cars because the car shows were gravitating towards the muscle cars, and big trophies and us guys with the horseless carriages were treated like the red headed step child. I had a curved dash Olds at a show years ago and some guy gave me a bunch of stuff about how his Mustang could blow the doors (which the olds doesn't have) off my little olds. I looked him square in the eye and said "Electric starters are for _____". End of me and cars, and end of him talking to me! -- Joe

I attend a show in southern Ohio where they give a trophy for the slowest running engine. I really like the idea because it doesn't take a high dollar engine to run slow but someone to take the time to tinker with the engine to make it slow. Last year’s winner was an Associated and the year before it was an Economy. It makes for a little competition but good clean fun competition. I always look forward to it even though I haven't even been close to winning yet. It gives me something to try and win and I don't have to go and spend big money on a engine to try and win. – Tom

Someone in this thread, referred to the dictionary for original. To me, original can be used as a noun, as in, this is the original. Or as an adjective, as in, this is the original part. When describing something, look at how the word is used and then ask questions. Original could mean as it left the factory, or as it appears, today, un-altered in parts replacement as it left the factory. Original could mean, restored, with all factory original and correct parts. Again, restored covers a lot of ground. As stated, let the buyer beware, and ask questions. – Pat

It would seem to me, that if an engine is repaired with original (NOS) standard factory replacement parts, then that engine has been restored to original condition. No machine work, or welding etc. on cast parts, or accessories. The rest seems like a bunch of knit picking to me. The companies did make factory replacement parts. -- Chuck

My thoughts are, if it is put back with like parts and looks as it was intended without a bunch of machine work then I would call it (Correct ) However, 99% paint and factory everything gets the pure award. Mine are anything but pure or even correct because I just run them and have fun. – Randy

I guess what I'm trying to say is: even if it has original paint, how am I going to know if some farmer didn’t change the cylinder sleeve in my 1919 IHC "M" back in say 1927 or 1932, or 1948. If it was repaired with original replacement parts and there are no alterations to the original design. I would say it is in original CONDITION. Unless my DAD and GRANDFATHER were the only owners, and I happened to ask them what repairs were made, how would anyone be able to tell the difference? I'm sure there are a few sellers out there that would swear to anything, but common sense tells me that if the engine was not under the control of some trusted family member and we think to ask, who knows? Back in 1954 when I was 6 yrs old I would have had to think about asking my grandfather about something he had for a long time, before he died. To ask him if something was original from the factory at 6, I just don't think it would have come into the conversation. My DAD mainly cared whether the thing worked or not as he was never a collector. So how could you truly know from a third party, that you really don't know, about something he really doesn’t know about. ORIGINAL CONDITION is about the closest most of us are ever going to get to. –CHUCK

How about "Original engine but not necessarily in original condition"? I've probably used the term original parts to distinguish from remakes, and they certainly are original even if not in original condition. Saying good used parts could mean reproduction used parts also. I don't feel saying an engine is in original condition is dishonest, this isn't saying it's as it came out of the factory, but about as good or better, regardless of any work done on it over the years. Interesting thread but hope none of you are losing any sleep over this. – Ed

I believe that it all depends on what level of nit picking one cares to indulge in. Is there any national sanctioning body that provides a definition of what an "original" engine really is? It would seem to me that if an engine is still assembled just as the manufacturer designed it, then it is still in original condition. If the normal addition of repair parts has taken place, or that normal maintenance, or repair procedures have been followed, then the engine is in original condition. If the engine has been modified from its manufacturers design, then it is not original. Think of the hot rodder’s modification of high compression heads, multiple carburetors, etc. That is not original. My Fairbanks 2 Hp dishpan has a sleeve in the cylinder. The bore was in pretty bad shape requiring this work to be done. Is the engine original? If it isn't, what is it? Repaired, refurbished, rebuilt, reconditioned, remanufactured, restored, or should it be declared as now butchered? It doesn't look any different, has the same bore as before and you wouldn't know it after a cursory look if I didn't tell you. I think we need a new engine category which we will call "Pristine" for those purest that can accept only an engine in its original factory condition, which has never been repaired, dented, scratched, soiled by oil, or grease and has never has gasoline, kerosene, or other fuels run through the fuel tank. All other engines can then be called less than pristine. Then the rest of us can get on with enjoying all the other engines we have, whatever may have happened to them over the years. Otherwise, if you have to tear down an engine and look it over with a magnifying glass, and use precision measuring devices to determine if it is indeed an original, then for all practical purposed it can be truthfully stated that the engine is in original condition. The installation of replacement parts, be they original manufacturer, or aftermarket supplier, to restore the engine to the original factory specification, or condition, should not prevent one from calling the engine an "original". As for painting, paint does not last forever and as long as the new paint job looks like the factory paint job, just leave well enough. -- Russ

i agree with what Ed said. You can't compare our hobby with the car people and their cars. Remember our engines helped people with limited money and they were sold as labor saving devices. One must remember most of our engines are 75 years old or older. When better times came, or when people got electric into their houses they neglected and forgot about their old engines. Some went to the scrap drives in WW2. Others were left outside to rust away. Some people still valued their old engines and preserved them for future generations. Now in the year 2003 many people are getting into our hobby and I for one think that's great. The problem is that this new generation of collector wants to only find/buy mint condition engines. They think it's like the car hobby and everything must be perfect. What I think is original is an engine that has all the parts that came with it from the factory. Sure it's neat to find a engine with original paint and decals on it, but sadly that’s not always the case and if you find a engine with the oiler, muffler, crank guard and starting crank consider yourself very lucky. A cart or factory cart is an added bonus. Almost all original engines have had a mishap somewhere along their long history. A broken rocker arm brazed together or a head brazed or welded. I don't think that takes away from the original concept, but then again I really don't give a dam what the (“I have only perfect engines in my collection people think”) I enjoy running and rebuilding and restoring my less than perfect engines. Henry Ford once said, the Lord must have loved the common folks, because he made so many of them. – Chuck

I totally agree with Russ, Both Chucks, and Paul V. I totally restore mine to the best of my ability and I also paint them as close to original as I can. It seems that on a post a couple of weeks ago this constitutes them to be only considered as "BOAT ANCHORS". When a person comes across an engine that has no paint and is rusted solid, and you take it and repair with old parts, new parts or make the parts you create something of a monster according to some. Well here is my opinion on the matter. I bought and paid for the engine, I also bought or made the parts, and paid for every other thing and I think this makes this engine mine and until someone else buys and pays for everything for me it remains mine and what I do with it is still my own business. – Paul

Wow, did I open Pandora's Box or what! Here's my simple little take on matters, If it has all original parts, be it factory replacements or well made duplicates (and I mean well made), I would refer to the engine as original. As a machinist who does a lot of repair work and small production runs, I know how substitutes and alterations can occur at a factory. So where would you draw the line? I'm sure that when these engines were built there were a lot of alterations and modifications to the blueprint. So, if it came off the assembly line like that, fresh out of the factory, it's not original? I guarantee if you went to any factory now, and randomly picked a product you would find at least one difference from the "model". It’s just my opinion and I never sold one without first telling the guy(or gal) what I put into it. Besides it makes me feel good to be able to say I replaced this, or had to machine that, or whatever. It always amazes me when you go to a car show and ask a guy what he did to his car and the response is " well I had the body done by such and such, and the engine was rebuilt by so and so" and on and on. Thanks for all the responses, it's always interesting to see all the differing views about our hobby. -- Paul

The original thread... CONTINUED]]> Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:38:20 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en Old Engine Torque http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/old-engine-torque-17/ http://www.smokstak.com/library/original-gem-articles-2/old-engine-torque-17/
Funny you should ask. Back on November 3, Dave asked about "old" engine efficiency. My brother-in-law and I went to Terre Haute Indiana to pick up an engine that I had bought from an instructor in the Mechanical Engineering Department at the Rose Hulman Institute there. He gave us a nice tour of the facility and showed us several engines connected to dynamometers. The students were comparing late model V8 engines to a 2.25 HP Associated engine that the instructor owned. This information was gathered back in 2001 and the instructor is making a search to find the data collected by the students. When or if he finds it, I will let you all know and try to make it available to all who would like to have it. Keep your eyes on this board for that information! -- Don

Power equals Torque times RPM. For engines with same HP, at the same RPM, torque must be the same. Advertised HP means nothing unless you specify the RPM. -- Brent

I'm just guessing, but I think the torque would be about the same as any other engine of the same horsepower. Then again, those heavy flywheels will carry a lot of torque once they get spinning. The thing to remember is that the old engine made horsepower at low RPM. If they could stay together at say 2,000 RPM, they would have a lot more horsepower. -- Vernon

I don't see how that can be possible. Look at how many rpm a modern day 6hp engine has to run to get the same hp as my 1925 6hp F/M. You turn the rpm down to match my F/M and I don't think you're going to get the same torque. I had always thought with the old engines the torque is generated by massive flywheels and in the modern engines torque is generated by high rpm. I don't see how the two can be compared by saying that at the same hp and rpm they must have the same torque. -- David

Unlike an electric motor, HP and torque are not related by HP=T/5252. The torque a gas engine produces is primarily a function of the distance between the main bearing center line and the rod bearing centerline (crank offset). This dimension multiplied by the force (cylinder pressure x piston area) applied to the connecting rod gives the torque output. There are other factors that affect the RPM where the torque peak occurs like valve lift and duration that can be changed by the camshaft. The "flywheel effect" is inertia. Newton showed us that an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force (in our case friction). The inertia is the energy the flywheels impart to the system after being acted on by the torque and acceleration of the crank shaft. Now, concerning a modern V8 engine comparison, I'll use my 13 HP Allis Chalmers B as a comparison. Put a modern 16 HP Briggs, Honda, Kohler, etc. in place of that and let's see if it will pull a 14" single bottom, or better yet, 12" 2 bottoms. Given the same ground speed of my B vs. a Sears garden tractor, if my engine RPM are the same and gear reduction the same, I will have the same ground speed (gear reduction accounts for tire size difference). If my gear reductions are the same, my torque multiplication to the ground is the same. Does the Sears have enough torque to the ground to plow like the B? I don't think so. Old gas engines were (are) torque monsters. They produce very low (relative) HP but gobs of torque. -- John

Well if the torque curve has a transfer curve equal to the coefficient of the radius. Then the RPM emission will be produced with the pulley diameter X P=3+RPM. You must have this to determine the factor point. But the escapement will keep the equivalent RPM foot pounds. I guess what I'm saying is it all depends on the piston return spring. -- Monte

Brent is correct. Engines at equal RPM and equal torque produce equal horsepower. Horsepower is calculated by entering torque and RPM into a formula. If you plug identical numbers into the formula, you get identical horsepower. Period.
I made a big mistake when I took college physics. I tried to use my powers of reasoning to solve problems and would get lost in a sea of words every time. I eventually learned it was as simple as plugging the numbers into the formulas.
HP = k X torque X rpm
To get equal horsepower from an engine that is running at half the RPM, the torque must be double.
To get equal horsepower from an engine that is running at 250 rpm, its torque must be ten times that as an engine running at 2,500 rpm.
Just plug the numbers into the formula.
BTW, in the formula, above, k is a conversion factor that is the same for every calculation, therefore, when doing these comparisons it can be disregarded. -- Orrin

Hi Orrin, I see the confusion (not mine). Brent’s does state that hp=torque x rpm. But, below that he does not state that engines with same torque and same rpm have the same hp (hp=torque x rpm). He states that engines with the same hp and same rpm have the same torque (torque=hp x rpm). That's like saying that 2x4=8 must then mean that 8x4=2. I suspect that Brent's fingers got a little bit ahead of his thinking. Gee, that never happens to any of us, does it? -- David.

Brent was correct in saying that if you have two engines of equal HP and equal RPM then they also produce the same torque. Again as somebody else said HP=k X torque X rpm. If you input a constant HP, RPM and constant k then you have no way for the equation to come out other then with equal torque. -- CJ

Hi CJ, it just hit me what the problem here is. The original question was comparing an old engine with a modern one. You can't, it's impossible. If you were to lower the rpm on a modern day engine to match the rpm on my 1925 one lunger then it would no longer be producing 6hp. It needs the high rpm to produce it. The formula would apply to two 1925 one lunger flywheels or two modern day engines, but you can't use it comparing the two different types of engines because a modern engine will not produce 6hp at 500 rpm. A different method would have to be used. -- David

Here goes the same old argument about the horsepower of old engines. If you look at the hp formulas, you find the time element as in feet per minute. If you take x ft lbs. of torque at 100 rpm and x ft lbs. of torque at 3000 rpm the result is more hp. I also disagree with the theory that huge flywheels "give" these old engines torque. The fly only stores and releases the power from the combustion in the cylinder. This is easily proven by observing how long the flywheels have "torque" if the engine is not firing. I think we know the answer to that one! -- Larry

What I was meaning to say about big flywheels having more torque is that they store more energy. Spin a small flywheel at the same speed as a big one and see which one stops faster. Be it that this momentum won't last long, it is good for a short burst. You can stall an engine with a small flywheel faster then you can one with a big flywheel. The reason for big flywheel in the fist place was to help keep the RPM steady during the non power producing strokes. If the engine isn't producing power during these strokes, then torque must be coming from someplace else, or the engine would stop during those strokes. I understand the engine put that stored energy in the flywheels to begin with. If you could take torque readings during the non power strokes, you'd get higher torque readings from large flywheels, then from small flywheels. Of course small flywheels recover quicker then large flywheels, (there is always a trade off). Sometimes we get confused when comparing horsepower and torque. HP has a time element, torque doesn't. If you gear it right, you can make the second hand on your clock have as much torque as a dragster, (if you could get rid of all that friction from the gears). The only problem is, it might take 2 weeks to measure it because it would turn so slow. With HP, you add a time element, so while you could get the high torque, the horsepower would be so low, that it would be hard to measure. I forget, HP is 1 ton moved one foot in one minute? Torque is how hard it is turning. I think I have stirred the pot enough for now. – Vernon

I am not sure what you mean by saying "Advertised HP means nothing unless you specify the RPM." HP is the ability to do work. Without having an engine's RPM then you can't calculate the torque, but you can still calculate its theoretical ability to lift weight up or perform any other "work". The RPM that an engine runs has nothing to do with its ability to do work. We also can't forget that there are different ways to measure HP. Modern small engines are rated at the maximum HP at rated speed. Old tractor engines were rated at Belt or PTO HP which takes into account transmission frictional losses etc. In a way comparing a 13 HP antique tractor to a 13 HP Honda engine is like comparing apples to oranges. The ratings are considered in two totally different ways. I would personally take the tractor. -- CJ

1 HP is equal to 550 ft-lbs/sec. In other words, 1 HP is the amount of power required to lift a weight of 550 lbs one foot in one second. If it were to take two seconds to lift that 550 lbs one foot, then you only have 1/2 a HP.
The problem you run into is the way some manufacturers choose to rate their engines (and motors, for that matter). Hercules was very careful to underrate theirs slightly, probably for fear of being sued. Glenn Karch could elaborate on this, but in his book, he shows how they had an independent laboratory (some university, I think) actually check the HP. They then advertised them at slightly less.
Nowadays, they find some loophole and take advantage of it. Like rating it at some peak HP that the engine or motor can't possibly sustain for more than a split second. That's why my "6-1/2" HP air compressor is really only about a 3. -- Hal

I did do some calculations once on the torque developed by my 20 Hp. JC oil-field engine. This wasn't to long after it had thrown me off the trailer while trying to start it. We looked at the momentum of the various moving components, flywheels, crank, cross head, etc, of the engine at a speed of 180 RPM. This was a few years ago, but if I remember correctly it had a torque at that speed in the range of 1800 ft-lbs. -- Steve

Thank you Steve, your answer is what I wanted to hear. All you other guys are getting too technical. I just wanted to see if anyone had ever figured out the torque of their engine. -- Tanner

Many times, over the years, I have run across literature that showed Prony brakes used to calculate power output. I never thought much about them until after I messed around with my 3 hp F-M Z (1920). I had an 8' long solid maple 2x4 that I was prying up under the belt pulley to put some load on the engine.
I was curious how the governing would actually function on this engine and what kind of power it actually had. I also wanted to put some firing pressure on the rings so I loaded her every which way I could think of with all variations and constant loads. As tough as this maple is, there was fine sawdust steadily produced as the pulley wore into the maple. (I was cautious at first so that I didn't allow the board to wack me, ever.)
It can be an eye opening experience, at least it was for me. I was a little surprised how easy it was to bog things down, even given all the dimensions of the fulcrum point, pulley diameter, etc. A few hours of this had the engine well covered with maple 'flour'.
Essentially, the Prony brake is just a lash-up that places a weighing scale under my stick, so to speak, and measures the number of pounds on the end of the stick. A quick glance in an old engine book that covers the Prony brake shows how they can be built, quite simply, with mostly wood parts and a platform scale (a Fairbanks, perhaps).
A few calculations using numbers derived from simple measurements produces an actual foot/pound number.
This could be a fun demonstration unit at any engine show. Maybe when I get a little free time. -- Kid

The tangent force at a 2 foot diameter pulley or the lbs of "pull" at 1 foot radius (or ft-lb) = 5254 (hp)/ RPM... So a 10 hp old engine operating at 150 rpm produces a steady torque of 350 ft lb. Of course, the operating characteristics of engines vary, as you load them, the rpm drops and the torque may keep up to maintain the rpm. This formula is only approximate, based upon pure mathematics. It says my diesel truck will produce 965 ft-lb at 365 HP and 2000 rpm. it only does 565 based upon the torque HP curves. -- Paul

I hate beating a dead horse and maybe I am missing some thing, but I do not believe that you can call all horsepower/torque ratios relative. How about this: We have a 1915 Economy engine with an Webster mag. Factory rated HP is 12. Lets also say that we have unlimited resources and decide that those flywheels are just too darn light weight. So, we hire a foundry to cast identical diameter flywheels but with a face width of 7". You go ahead and crank it up, with the help of a friend now that we have added several hundred pounds to the flywheel weight, and run it at the same factory rated speed of 300 RPM. OK, this engine isn't creating any more energy now than it was before, but I promise that the measurable torque and the amount of force/resistance required to stop those flywheels, which would make any oil field engine lover envious, would be far more than a stock 12HP Economy engine. OK, that being said, I think the critical part of the equation in determining the relation of our antique engines to modern day, light weight, high RPM engines is in fact the total amount of "Stored" or kinetic energy that they have. I am no mathematician nor do I doubt any of the formulas discussed in this thread. BUT, I can not help but believe that in comparing an old hit & miss flywheel engine to a modern engine of equal HP, that the stored reciprocating energy of the flywheels is a determining factor that proves that our older engines have far greater torque than their modern counterpart, which have very little stored kinetic energy. How do you measure this stored kinetic energy? I have no idea, but it definitely has a place in any mathematical equation that compares these two very different torque ratios. -- Keith

IF you put those HUGE flywheels on the same engine it would not be off and running with a few pops of the exhaust. Rather, it would probably take 15-20 power impulses to get the engine up to speed. Where did all that energy go? Into the flywheels - a VERY efficient place to store energy for short intervals. The only things you have accomplished are lengthening both the startup and shutdown times, nothing more I'm afraid. There is only so much power in each gasoline explosion and NOTHING, everything else remaining constant, can change that. It will pull you through a tough spot though but the energy used AT THAT TIME will have to be replaced. -- Craig

Keith: On the same engine and operating at the same speed and conditions, heavier flywheels will not cause it to produce more average torque. Let's say the engine produces 100 lb/ft of torque with the original flywheels. It will still produce the same 100 lb/ft of torque with the heavier flywheels but will have more "instantaneous" torque. Sure, if you suddenly put a large load on it, it will take longer for the engine to stall because the load is -discharging the flywheel weight. Once this is discharged, the engine will stop. -- Elden

Somebody else already mentioned Prony brakes. It's too bad they are relatively scarce at shows. The folks at Rollag have one and it's quite an education to see how it is used and how horsepower is calculated.
A Prony brake calculation of horsepower requires two measurements: 1) RPM; and, 2) Foot-pounds of torque.
The "pounds" portion of torque is measured by a scale and the "foot" measurement is the length of the lever between the brake and the scale.
The length of the lever on any Prony brake doesn't change, so, to measure horsepower only two readings are taken: 1) RPM and 2) Pounds
It's is simple as that. Two simple measurements.
Understanding horsepower only requires that a person knows that it's a measure of only two things. Thousands of words of logic or reasoning will only serve to obscure a very simple thing.
The scale and the RPM meter could care less about such things as: size of flywheel, old engine or new engine, single cylinder or multi-cylinder, diesel or gas, internal combustion or external combustion, etc. etc., you name it. -- Orrin

OK then, you say that: "A Prony brake calculation of horsepower requires two measurements: 1) RPM; and, 2) Foot-pounds of torque." And "The scale and the RPM meter could care less about such things as: size of flywheel," So this can only go to prove that a modern, say 6HP engine, is a high RPM/low torque 6HP and an old Hit & Miss is a low RPM/high torque 6HP, right? Thus answering the original question of how does our old iron compare to modern machinery in the torque aspect? So in fact, just because it (an engine) is creating 6HP of energy be it new or old does not automatically mean equal torque! -- Keith

There was a real good article in Gas Engine Magazine a few years ago by someone who built a Prony brake. And I can't find it. Does anyone recall what issue it's in? -- Al

Well to further add to the confusion.... If you geared the 3600 RPM engine down to 500 RPM it would have the same torque as the 500 RPM one minus gear losses. No Machine is 100 % efficient. True the 500 RPM engine had much larger flywheels but they are only turning a fraction of the speed. Old engines are probably a little more conservatively rated though. Horse power has the same relationship as Watts in electricity. One horsepower is about the same as 746 watts and one horsepower will raise a weight of 33,000 pounds at the rate of one foot per minute. If you cut the RPM in half the torque will double and still be the same horsepower. -- Ken

The answer to this conundrum was given very early in the discussion. The limiting factor is the pro bono misconception affecting a 6 HP yellow Hired Man (Associated) in Fresno, times the foot pounds of pork through the muffler valve. This must equal the circuitous entrails of bivalves as stated in the plethora of formulae contained herein. Any questions? -- Gary

Well, How about this: If you stall a Steam Engine in the right place it will deliver Maximum Torque and not be developing any horsepower. This is the only engine that will make maximum Torque at stall. But, just let this baby get some RPM and then watch the horsepower... -- Ken
Correct. Note that electric motors have a torque curve that is maximum at zero RPM and drops off with increasing speed. That’s why they would be so good for cars. Put an electric motor at each wheel. Now you just need a really long extension cord. -- Brent

I saw the factory specifications on a 40 H.P. valveless Franklin and it had a rating of 325 BHP (brake horse power). Does this help answer anything or did I just post in the wrong thread? -- Fred

HP is simply the torque (force) expended at a given RPM (time). Work: HP always equals force per unit time. A jet plane may develop 180,000 lbs of thrust, but at the start of take off it is producing near zero HP. By the end of the runway, it has expended a lot of force over a great distance so the HP is now large. HP is just the rate at which torque is delivered. A large engine with a lot of stored inertia in the flywheels has the capability to produce a very high amount of torque over a short time and hence a high instantaneous HP. Large flywheels do store a lot of energy to even out the pulses of our old iron, but given a steady load, they all slow down. -- Paul

More on the original thread... CONTINUED]]> Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:06:50 Original GEM Articles Original GEM Articles Smokstak en