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Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?


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  #21  
Old 01-03-2018, 05:53:53 PM
len k len k is offline
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G saavy?

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Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
With enough money and ingenuity, one could use a series of contactors with the requisite control to make it so that you could switch between voltages on the fly.
I remember reading want to stop engine before changing configuration. But technically would think would be ok to change while running as long as had no load and maybe second or so pause between configuration changes ( to let any circulating currents die out ....inductance issues.)

Have to think about effect on voltage reg of losing sense input, will go full field. Maybe additional pause to fully disconnect reg before reconfigureing output
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:15:04 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G saavy?

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Originally Posted by Motorhead View Post
About the ONLY thing in your favor on the 35G is that it is a Ford 2.3 Overhead cam engine (Pinto, Ranger pickup) that can probably take the higher RPM that some of the other engines don't fare so well at...
I'm reasonably sure that the subject set has a Chrysler Industrial H135 engine, not a Ford.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:28:03 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G saavy?

Thanks Wayne. I didn't catch that one. Yes Onan used the Chrysler engine on the Tech Star.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:32:14 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G saavy?

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Originally Posted by Wayne 440 View Post
I'm reasonably sure that the subject set has a Chrysler Industrial H135 engine, not a Ford.
Sorry Guys and Thanks Wayne for the correction. It at first glance looked like the Ford 2.3 engine. The little Chrysler 4 banger and the Ford 2.3 look close alike. I went back and edited out my two previous posts. Sorry for the mis information to the Original poster and to you guys on the site.

I HAVE worked on both engines and had a client with a Dodge mini van with the little 4 cyl that blew a head gasket at about 140,000 miles. He drove it over heated until it about stopped! He had no money so I pulled the head, did a quickie surface and put it back together with a new head gasket. I told him it wasn't pretty inside as the cylinders had some scoring and he should unload it ASAP. He drove the damn thing another 20,000 miles before he sold it with no problems
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:40:10 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G saavy?

I am normally a big fan of Chrysler (as it existed before the before the Daimler, Fiat etc. fiasco), but would not place much faith in that engine for generator set service at 3600RPM. That said, at 1800 and 20kW or so, it would probably give good service.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:08:21 AM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G saavy?

My plan was to put it behind my shop in an add on room and run the wiring into my shop to use as a test stand and to run my 3 phase equipment (ie) welder.

Think it would be ok for that purpose?

So, the techstar 35g is a chrysler engine? Can you govern the RPM?
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:45:44 AM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

No it is 3600 or nothing. Needs to run that fast to create the proper voltage. If you chose to use it. Keep everyone away from it. Be ready for the noise and after each run. Check for loose items.
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:32:27 AM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

That engine is the industrial version of Chrysler's 2.2L auto engine.
As Billy says, it has to run at 3600 in the Techstar application. My
comments concerned the engine in general, I apologize for the
confusion.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:09:01 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

Just a thought, if you already have (single phase) power to your shop, you could build a phase converter, and incorporate a transformer to supply most any voltage you'd want... Sourcing most or all of the parts used, you could do it fairly economically, I'd think.

It would be unimaginably quieter...

Here's a straight six diesel running 3600 rpm. So loud that the microphone is clipping lol. The guy has the balls (or the ignorance) to stand right beside the block!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1L4vJCc8OpY
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:49:38 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

If you already own it you might as well use it, just be prepared for or try to mitigate the noise somehow. I would not be sinking a lot of money into it though , in case you can't stand it or it dies early. Cheers Dan
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:41:42 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Just a thought, if you already have (single phase) power to your shop, you could build a phase converter, and incorporate a transformer to supply most any voltage you'd want... Sourcing most or all of the parts used, you could do it fairly economically, I'd think.

It would be unimaginably quieter...

Here's a straight six diesel running 3600 rpm. So loud that the microphone is clipping lol. The guy has the balls (or the ignorance) to stand right beside the block!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1L4vJCc8OpY
That is the L634 that they used in UPS trucks for about 5 years. I can see 3600 when the poor engine is loaded heavy but sitting there running at 3600
unloaded or lightly loaded.... Look out.
I had what was called a P10 UPS truck that had that engine in it and a 4 speed stick. P10 meant that it had a 1000 cubic feet in the package area, BIG. They would send me to an airport that was 35 miles away when we were fogged in. The word from management was "Haul Ass and get back ASAP". That poor little 6 ran against the governor and wide open for 70 round trip miles, up hill and down hill. It CLEARLY was NOT my way to treat equipment.
EVERY one of those the mechanic had to pull the head off of to change blown head gaskets ALL had scuffed cylinder walls from running high cylinder temps and high RPM's. Ours had a little turbo on them with no intercooler.
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:26:48 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

Hmm, when you put it in the context of vehicular application, it doesn't seem so bad, or least so unusual.

When I was in high school I bought my 1 ton Dodge Maxi-Van (still have it!).

Long story short, I *stuffed* a hopped up 440 in it, it has 4.10 gears, and would be turning over 4k when making good time. Of course, even at ~100 mph, the load was light for that engine. Plenty of throttle left. Could very easily get up over 5k and well into the triple digit territory. Noisy yes, but not scary.

So, I guess a much smaller engine turning 3600 all day doesn't seem so bad, in theory... But I still don't like it lol.

For a while I had an overdrive four speed standard in the van, and it was much better. 4k with that was more like 120. But it was made for a small block (had to machine an aftermarket flywheel housing to make it work), and even with a heavy clutch it would slip unless locked up before you mashed the throttle. The trans didn't hold up to the 440 for very long...

Keith
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:18:39 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

Keith, in automotive applications, I agree with you. Ran plenty of engines well past 5,000 rpm. The real problem is the from zero to 3600 rpm cold is just not conducive to long engine life, especially a diesel. Those engines, in my opinion should have been only in an 1800 rpm application. Even in an automotive application as UPS had, they were a piece of junk. They were too small in displacement for what UPS needed, only 3.4 ltr.
So what did UPS do to "Spend a DOLLAR to save a DIME?" They were able to re-power the L634 package cars through the Air Resources Board with gasoline engines. All of the package cars that had the Onan L634 were installed in GM truck chassis's. But they made another dumb mistake, they transplanted TBI 4.3 GM V6's when they should have put in a Small Block 5.7 GM V8. The 4.3 V6 was actually MORE expensive from a component price to install than a V8 would have been. They too were terribly under powered for our usage in the big cube trucks and blew up almost as fast as the Onan L634.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:29:41 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

a better comparison is marine use
pushing the boat through [separating] the water at a constant speed
or keeping it up on plane.

my dad's first boat had a pair of grey marine straight 8 flat head engines
[as I recall] huge heavy slow turning

under rated so that they would keep working when you really needed it.
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Last edited by armandh; 01-06-2018 at 07:47:44 AM.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:28:38 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

I don't buy the cold start thing, I think cold starts are just fine. I've worked on enough engines, you can see oil pressure starting to pump out all the passages before fuel even reaches the cylinders.

But with regard to the van, or any car, they may run 3600 RPM some of the time but never all of the time. A generator screaming away has no idle time at stop lights, no 25 mph roads, 100% of the time is spent at 3600 and at that RPM all the mechanical forces are way higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanman View Post
Hmm, when you put it in the context of vehicular application, it doesn't seem so bad, or least so unusual.

When I was in high school I bought my 1 ton Dodge Maxi-Van (still have it!).

Long story short, I *stuffed* a hopped up 440 in it, it has 4.10 gears, and would be turning over 4k when making good time. Of course, even at ~100 mph, the load was light for that engine. Plenty of throttle left. Could very easily get up over 5k and well into the triple digit territory. Noisy yes, but not scary.

So, I guess a much smaller engine turning 3600 all day doesn't seem so bad, in theory... But I still don't like it lol.

For a while I had an overdrive four speed standard in the van, and it was much better. 4k with that was more like 120. But it was made for a small block (had to machine an aftermarket flywheel housing to make it work), and even with a heavy clutch it would slip unless locked up before you mashed the throttle. The trans didn't hold up to the 440 for very long...

Keith
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:24:06 PM
Wayne 440 Wayne 440 is offline
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

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...the van, or any car, they may run 3600 RPM some of the time but never all of the time...
Obviously, you have never seen how my wife drives.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:26:49 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

This comment caught my eye: [I think cold starts are just fine. I've worked on enough engines, you can see oil pressure starting to pump out all the passages before fuel even reaches the cylinders.]

Sure oil is not compressible but on many IC engine designs the cylinder walls are lubricated by splash coming off the rod journals. Couple that thought with gasoline cylinder wash down, hi viscosity non synthetic oil and that is why, IMHO, Onan says 90 % of the wear occurs in the first 15 minutes of operation.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:39:53 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon N. View Post
This comment caught my eye: [I think cold starts are just fine. I've worked on enough engines, you can see oil pressure starting to pump out all the passages before fuel even reaches the cylinders.]

Sure oil is not compressible but on many IC engine designs the cylinder walls are lubricated by splash coming off the rod journals. Couple that thought with gasoline cylinder wash down, hi viscosity non synthetic oil and that is why, IMHO, Onan says 90 % of the wear occurs in the first 15 minutes of operation.
I would like to see where that is found in publication. I have heard that same quotation from anybody, remove Onan and insert [Ford] [GM] [Cummins] [Detroit} etc... but I can't say I've read every publication.

Rod splash same as anything, the piston is coated in oil that never drains off because the clearance is too small, the lower cylinder wall below where the piston stopped may be a bit drier than normal, but it still has some oil and the rods start splashing immediately just like the rest of it before it has even come up to a couple hundred RPM, let alone started to fire.
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Old 01-06-2018, 01:30:51 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

I would too! If one stops and thinks about that comment, and consider how things were back in the 60's, that is the early engine designs, the lubricating oils and how the generators were operated and then look at what is done today, that is use of relatively low viscosity, high film strength synthetic lubricating oils operating over extreme temperature ranges, then what Onan told me sounds reasonable.

Look at it this way, engine wear is caused by two surfaces rubbing against each other. Right? What keeps them apart? The oil film. On what two surfaces is this wear most apparent? The piston rings and the valve stems. Why there? Lack of cold lubrication and lack of hot lubrication, respectively. And lousy filtration takes its' toll on the journals.
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Old 01-06-2018, 01:31:00 PM
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Default Re: Onan Tech Star 35G Saavy?

In any case, I don't understand why manufacturers felt the need to try 3600 RPM generators based on liquid cooled engines at all, ever.

All of the big 3 tried them, 2 have learned their lesson.

Who is going to buy them? If you are 20 kW or less you are in air cooled territory. But all of the 3600 RPM sets were over that power level. Who buys a 25/30/35/45 kW set and wants to cheap out on materials this way?

Certainly a homeowner who needs that level of generator can afford an 1800 RPM one.

Maybe it was for grocery stores and whatnot.
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