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Onan Magniciter Theory FAQ


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  #11  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:42:06 AM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
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Default RE: Magniciter Theory FAQ

Ted If you find out what FIRE DOWN means please let me know. I have gone through all my magnaciter manuals with no luck. I called some of the other old Onan techs from the factory. They cannot recall what it means. Power tronics makes a good replacement system for the mag. I have installed several of them. And yes if coils burn out replace system.

Ted Cool's Reply: Hi Billy,

I have the same question, too. The best I can figure is that this is the voltage at which the 'knee' in the saturation curve of the reactors is most evident - in other words, you will see the DC field voltage increase as the AC voltage increases, until you reach the 'fire down' voltage, at which point, the DC voltage will start to decrease. I haven't tried it to see if that actually happens ( Don't have a variac ) - Has anyone here tried that?
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Last edited by BTPost; 05-02-2009 at 01:27:24 PM. Reason: Cleaning up FAQ's
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  #12  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:31:46 PM
Ted_Cool Ted_Cool is offline
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Thumbs up RE: Magniciter Theory FAQ

Wow - moved up to the top of the forum! I thought the FAQ was a good enough home. Thanks to all the rest of you here - I couldn't have done it without your help.

BTPost-Answer:
Your insights deserve the "Special Recognition" of being their own FAQ.
Anyone who can fathom the Magniciter, and explain it, so us lesser people,
can understand the MAGIC involved, deserves our best. Thanks a lot Ted.
Many will come to appreciate this down the road.

Last edited by BTPost; 05-02-2009 at 01:15:49 PM. Reason: Cleaning up FAQ
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  #13  
Old 08-10-2008, 06:52:05 PM
Lloyd H Lloyd H is offline
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Default Re: Magniciter Theory FAQ

I once had a better understanding of saturable reactors as a Navy interior communication electrician (we called them magnetic amplifiers) The navy used them in a lot of stuff in the 50's and 60's. Gun mounts were driven with DC motors powered by "amplidynes" (dc generators driven by 480 3phase motors. The field coils were controlled by mag amps. So if anyone can come up with some of the old training material it would certainly be applicable. In school we covered mag amps in a week of school time. (1963 for me so a lot of it is gone out of the old noggin)
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2009, 10:54:30 AM
BergmanJ BergmanJ is offline
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Default RE: Magniciter Theory FAQ

As promised a while ago, here is re-done diagram with all re-winding particulars for the 315-103 Gate Reactors. I also attached the modified Onan testing procedure for reference.

Well, folks, I put together a paper describing some of the details of re-winding an Onan 315-102 Gate Reactor. I tend to be just a wee bit windy when it comes to documentation like this; so, --- bear with it.

I've attached it below & hope it's useful to someone.

Thanks, JLB
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  #15  
Old 04-01-2009, 01:45:24 PM
Ted_Cool Ted_Cool is offline
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Default Re: Magniciter Theory FAQ

Thanks - That info is priceless for magneciter repair.

Also, I'm glad to see you figured out what the heck the compound winding and shunt wire were doing. I'm just an electrical 'hacker', not truly knowledgeable...

Reviewing my notes on the compounding winding, I think I was on the right track - more current to the field provides a little positive feedback, such that it will balance out at 120 volts at a higher field current as load increases.

It's interesting that Onan used two different gauge 'Load Sense Loop' wires over time - I guess that's how to tweak the feedback. Either that, or 13 gauge was just too hard to find/ not worth it. It seems like experimenting with the length and gauge of these two wires might be worthwhile to try to get better regulation.

Did you rewind the gates yourself, or did you send them out somewhere? These are really similar to what Amateur Radio 'Hams' would make for a high power antenna matching balun. I've seen the wire and insulating tape available at their supply houses.

Do you have the specs on the winding of the Voltage Control Reactor 315 -100?

Thanks Again!
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  #16  
Old 04-01-2009, 02:13:21 PM
BergmanJ BergmanJ is offline
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Default RE: Magniciter Theory FAQ

Ted,

I'm the guilty party all by myself.

I'm also a 'ham': KC0BWT, but haven't been active recently due to the spouse and I also building a new totally 'off-grid' retirement home. It keeps us extraordinarily busy.

No, I don't have any specs for any of the other reactors; I would need to have a working-good example, AND a 'burned-up' one from which to work. Perhaps someone else would like to contribute work on some others.

You need to very carefully take the bad one apart, counting each and every last turn, measuring wire guage, noting any other specific quirks, etc. Then you need to compare (electrically) the newly re-wound reactor to it's partner 'working-good' reactor as far as being the electrical equivalent. This might require accurate DVM's, Oscilloscopes, frequency generators, etc.

I used the 25-watt lightbulb test in conjunction with my DMM to result in an identical unit to its mate by measuring 60-hz 120VRMS utility power through the light bulb and reactor to customize the final winding turns so that each winding would match both the open-circuit, and shorted Control winding series RMS current while running the lightbulb test [Method E] comparing the new against the old (good) one. The heavy Gate winding is the most particular for exact number of turns. Both windings can be adjusted a few turns + or - to exactly match the 'known-good' one.

The same kind of work would be applicable to reverse-engineer any of the other reactors for other models.

Then, there is the time element! Mine took many 10's of hours to figure-out, then collect materials, and re-wind.

I did mine out of sheer necessity of being 'off-grid' and going into winter (around here it can get to -40 deg. F. occasionally - this requires space heating to survive; which, in turn, requires some electrical service to run the heating (yes, I know, wood heat would do. but I'm still 'working for a living' too)).

It should cost about $100.00 or so to have a motor shop re-wind the 315-102 per my specs. above. This would NOT include any fine tuning of the number of turns.

Thanks, JLB

I have a 15kW MDJF marine unit with a magneciter inside, and it is poorly corroded after sitting for several years. Inout appreas to be 3 lead from sttaor and output is to 2 pairs of carbon brushes on the rotor.

Can it be replaced with an electronic voltage regulator (less than $200), like later AA spec models (part# 300-1540)? If so, it'd save me a lot of money and time.
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2009, 03:23:28 PM
bmilbourn bmilbourn is offline
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Default Re: Magneciter Theory...

Well put Ted!
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2009, 12:32:48 PM
Ted_Cool Ted_Cool is offline
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Default Magneciter differences -06SX

Does anyone know when/where/why the different 06SX magneciters were used? I have a 10.0 JC spec 'H' with the 06SX1N1B. Is the 06SX1N3B used in a later spec? The Onan Service Bulletin dated 3-73 says 'Some newer units have an automatic field flashing circuit...'

06SX1N1A - No field flash.

06SX1N1B Field flash push button switch.

06SX1N3B 'Automatic' field flash via extra diodes. Two in series, same part numbers as the regular field diodes.

Why two in series? <To Increase the PIV Rating Of the Diodes>

150 ohm stabilizing resistor listed as 50 watt in specs, but appears to be a Dale G series 10 watt.

'Compound Winding' 14 gauge ( Rev A ) or 13 gauge ( Rev C ) wire 27.5 inches

'Calibrated shunt' 16 gauge wire 27.5 inches long in parallel with 'Compound Winding'

Same gate and control reactors.
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  #19  
Old 12-17-2009, 10:14:13 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Magniciter Theory FAQ

I figured there was enough demand for these Onan Magneciter pages that I would just put them here instead of everyone having to request them from someone who has them.

I won't duplicate what has already been posted in this thread, so if you don't see the one you need, check the rest of this Magneciter threead.
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  #20  
Old 12-17-2009, 10:36:11 PM
Jim Rankin Jim Rankin is offline
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Default Re: Magniciter Theory FAQ

It looks like you have to click on the thumbnail,
then click on the picture that loads in the dark screen and
then boost the magnification so you can read it, but it doesn't get too fuzzy.

Here's some more
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