Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® General Discussion > Smokstak Down Under
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Smokstak Down Under For Australia and New Zealand Smokstakers to meet, greet, yabber and yack.

Smokstak Down Under

Hornsby-Akroyd


this thread has 55 replies and has been viewed 4613 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-06-2019, 03:27:47 AM
gcm gcm is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 40
Thanks: 1
Thanked 39 Times in 12 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Thnx Gents for the advise. I will keep on trying in a gentle way. Luckily time is what I have more than enough and it will still take many months before I will be at a point where it would need fitment again.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old 03-06-2019, 03:40:36 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gunbower, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 824
Thanks: 265
Thanked 804 Times in 391 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcm View Post
At last my Hornsby's crank has been repaired. What a huge task just to get the crank out of the flywheel first. My own lathe is way to small for the job and finding a Engineering shop willing to do the repair was a mission on its own. Eventually I got to a Engine Engineering shop and even they said "no" it can't be done. Luckily for me, the owner an old guy probably in his 80's and still active at his own shop, asked me about the task on hand. He also initially said "no" but after I draw him some diagrams on how I would tackle the job, if my lathe could handle it, he thought about it and said "YES" it can be done. Well attached are the prove that the old crank is ready for action again and waiting for me to de-rust all the other parts. This is going to be a long project ;-)
I'd like to know the method used to fix the crank please. I have also fixed two similarly buggered cranks back to " new" and am always keen to know the way someone else's brain works.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-06-2019, 05:18:37 AM
gcm gcm is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 40
Thanks: 1
Thanked 39 Times in 12 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

First they clean cut the part damaged by the torch. Then machine a hole in the center of the crank end. A new peace of steal, with about 20mm larger diameter than the crank, was then machined to be press fitted into the hole. Welding preps were cut into both sides and the two were then welded together with a computerized setup where the crank turns slowly and the welder welds continuously. With the cranks diameter set, the new piece of steel was then machined away to create a nice strait crank end again. The key way was then machined on a mill.
It sounds easy enough but I think they had there work cutout because the crank is quite heavy and something with such heavy off center probably rocked the lathe a little bit ;-) They said they have tested the crank afterwards and it is aligned perfectly again.
The other advantage I have is that the repaired side only houses the pulley for the flat belt and this pulley is not even close the weight of the flywheel.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to gcm For This Post:
  #24  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:04:55 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gunbower, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 824
Thanks: 265
Thanked 804 Times in 391 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Thanks, thats basically the same method I've used except i cut the two shafts to a point so the weld was fully through to the core and i just held them together by hand until i'd tacked them so i needed the added bit to be a fair bit larger in diameter to turn back to straight after i'd finished.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Darryl For This Post:
  #25  
Old 03-06-2019, 11:28:18 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Coopernook. N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 1,671
Thanks: 3,056
Thanked 733 Times in 501 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Is it not possible to remove the broken part of the shaft and replace that section only and then would be as original build?

Sorry for the silly question.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-07-2019, 02:43:49 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Allansford, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 2,087
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 1,978 Times in 967 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Most that I have seen of that breed are a one piece crank Cobba,...?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Paul Richardson For This Post:
  #27  
Old 03-07-2019, 03:27:17 PM
gcm gcm is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 40
Thanks: 1
Thanked 39 Times in 12 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

The crank looks as if they took a block of steel about 1.5m x 260mm x 90mm and machined it into one piece. Also interesting is that the crank ends does not have a center hole to easilly keep it in position in the lathe tailstock. Not even one mark suggesting there might be a joint. I would love to know how they machined it.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-07-2019, 07:26:48 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Allansford, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 2,087
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 1,978 Times in 967 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcm View Post
Thnx Gents for the advise. I will keep on trying in a gentle way.

A couple of times Gert, I have found that most of the stubborn grip on the plunger shaft in a pump like that has come from moisture over the years having found it's way in amongst the layers of the gland packing.The moisture is typically suspended there in the packing area for long enough to concentrate some rust activity from the steel plunger in that immediate location.Rust growth might also be blamed for expansion inside of the gland packing,creating even greater grip on the plunger.
A few minutes of heating with a plumbers torch(map or lpg)will usually burn or destroy the remains of the gland packing.It's this kind of mild heating approach repeated that causes minute expansions and contractions of the stuck joined area and eventually destroys it's hold.Don't worry,you will still require your patience,and you needn't worry about damaging heat.You have to be actually making a serious effort to get up in amongst that kind of temperature.
Keep in mind when you do mange to get the pump apart,that the bore only provides a guide for the plunger,and it's shape is not critical for creating a seal.It's the job of the gland packing to provide the seal.The plunger diameter is chosen by the maker to match(displace) the right average amount of fuel required for the proper running of each respective hp size in the range.
If you were to study your pump overly closely and decided that a rebore and larger plunger would tidy up the working surfaces,you would be altering something much more important than a tidy finish.
More on bronze/gunmetal.Most of this style of alloy will be above 80% copper content.This makes it something that will transfer heat very efficiently.It makes a good bearing because of the self lubricating qualities of the copper and lead content,but more important than those features to note,is that it can be very soft.If for example,if you perhaps decided to mount the pump body in a good sized four jaw chuck in the lathe to perform some minor job,a re-sleeve or something similar,it would be no problem to bend or squash the whole thing out of shape just by continuing with the chuck key looking for a firm hold,and not paying proper attention to the progress in the chuck jaws.How do I know that,..?...

Last edited by Paul Richardson; 03-07-2019 at 07:46:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Paul Richardson For This Post:
  #29  
Old 03-08-2019, 02:40:08 AM
gcm gcm is offline
Registered
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 40
Thanks: 1
Thanked 39 Times in 12 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Thnx Paul for the advice I appreciate it. I first plan to mix some ATF and Acetone, which I heard makes quite a good penetrating oil. The plan is to dunk the pump in a container with my "doepa" and seal the container because I think the Acetone will evaporate over time. Then leave my experiment in a corner for some time.
I am sometimes a bit impatient which means I need to keep the hydraulic press and heat away for a little longer. This will be last option when I am getting closer to the time when I need to assemble the pump again. At least I have time enough to wait it out.
The engine sat outside for over 60years and lots of rust and dust/sand accumulated everywhere inside which needs cleaning first. I normally use molasses for dunking my parts in and wait two to three weeks and most of the time all the rust is gone. There is still lots of parts to be cleaned and to wait for the pump while in the mixture, is fine at this stage ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-08-2019, 03:38:11 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gunbower, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 824
Thanks: 265
Thanked 804 Times in 391 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Dont be afraid to give the plunger tap inwards to get some movement either, just to get it started.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Darryl For This Post:
  #31  
Old 03-08-2019, 08:01:03 PM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Allansford, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 2,087
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 1,978 Times in 967 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by gcm View Post
The engine sat outside for over 60years and lots of rust and dust/sand accumulated everywhere inside which needs cleaning first. I normally use molasses for dunking my parts in and wait two to three weeks and most of the time all the rust is gone. There is still lots of parts to be cleaned and to wait for the pump while in the mixture, is fine at this stage ;-)
I didn't realise it had been out braving the elements all that time Gert?For some reason in my mind I had pictured the engine having a little bit of cover or something.
Many times in this old machinery restorers hobby,while seeking different methods of repair, all kinds of opinions will be expressed as to what is a good effective way,and yet again you may see that same solution deemed as a recipe for destruction of your precious part.
The problem being for any discussion,or offering of advice,is that most if not all of these opinions are based in experience.
Like yourself I have used molasses to remove rust,from plate steel and from cast iron,enjoying very satisfying results,without any negative outcomes.Recently I have heard the claim made that prolonged use of molasses to de-rust cast iron risks removing carbon from the casting,and causing nasty pitting in some cases.
My first reaction was "not true",because of my own happy experience with it.After hearing enough support though from the right people,and listening to others,i now believe that 'too long' in the molasses for cast iron is a risk.From what I can gather,from sources that I have trusted for a long time,a period of two or three weeks might be the safe limit to avoid damage?After that,depending on the casting,problems have been known to occur.
I think the same can be said for the electrolysis bath method if care is not taken to get the polarity right?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 03-08-2019, 11:29:26 PM
cobbadog cobbadog is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Coopernook. N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 1,671
Thanks: 3,056
Thanked 733 Times in 501 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Interesting comments on the molasses treatment.

Like they say "Anything in moderation" and it seems to be the case here.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 03-09-2019, 05:04:10 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,048
Thanks: 1,630
Thanked 2,051 Times in 556 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Hi Gert,
My number one weapon to destroy a bronze casting above an angle grinder, sledge hammer, press etc is simply heat.
If you heat the bronze fuel pump to much, you may easily destroy it. I don't like to heat a bronze casting. Maybe warm it, but its a very fine line - just be careful how much heat you apply.
Regards,
Wayne

Hi Gert,

I have included a link below:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/m...th-d_1353.html

Just be clear if you are going to heat the casting, I would make sure you don't put the casting under any stress. You do not have to be anywhere near melting point to destroy the casting. You can see on the graph that bronze loses its strength very quickly with heat.

Regards,
Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 03-10-2019, 02:35:46 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Allansford, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 2,087
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 1,978 Times in 967 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Hi Gert,
Paul might be a little relaxed with his statement. My number one weapon to destroy a bronze casting above an angle grinder, sledge hammer, press etc is simply heat.
Regards,
Wayne
Reading this comment for the first time Wayne,i must admit I felt that it was bringing my advice into question.I went away having to stop awhile to wonder what it actually is that my first hand experience has shown me,..to question myself if I am actually offering sound advice?
Now in your most recent comment here it turns out that "simply heat" is a little short of the reality when it comes to risking damage to the bronze part?It seems your statement is reliant on somebody actually helping the part along while hot,by doing something stupid?
I'm pleased to see this comment go a little way towards clearing the matter up.

A little more experience offered here on heating bronze and brass.This may help demystify the subject a little,where readers following so far may have begun to confuse the matter?The plunger pictured is a reproduction of a brass water pump plunger from an identical size Hornsby Akroyd engine as the one featured.(this part is from a portable model)
To try to copy an original I found myself using a new gunmetal casting(88%copper) and after machining it was fitted to a 2" brass pipe having a 1/8" wall.The plain end was blocked with a new brass welsh plug that was a little thinner than the wall thickness of the pipe.
Both ends were welded with oxy acetylene torch and bronze filler.This involved heating the immediate weld region of the tube to at least 500cels above the temperature indicated (in the chart provided in the link above) where it shows bronze on average to have been depleted of it's normal strength down to just 20%.
The plain end was fairly straightforward to weld.The end having the coupling involved a chunk of high copper content gunmetal that is normally inclined to 'drink' heat,coupled to a 1/8" thickness wall of brass.
As you can see,much much higher temperatures than indicated in the chart are manageable,while working with bronze and brass,provided you don't plan to do anything stupid.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP7871.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	51.2 KB
ID:	330311   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP7873.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	56.3 KB
ID:	330312  
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 03-10-2019, 04:55:52 AM
Darryl Darryl is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gunbower, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 824
Thanks: 265
Thanked 804 Times in 391 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Thats a polite way of saying it Paul.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Darryl For This Post:
  #36  
Old 03-10-2019, 05:04:05 AM
Wayne Timms Wayne Timms is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 1,048
Thanks: 1,630
Thanked 2,051 Times in 556 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Richardson View Post
Don't be frightened to get the whole thing hot.
Hi Paul,

I am only really involved in this discussion because of your comment telling Gert to get the whole thing hot, with no mention of the consequences, or comment around putting the fuel pump under stress.

You mention that he will not destroy the casting with heat as he will be nowhere near melting temperature. I am merely pointing out to Gert how weak a bronze casting becomes with heat, even if it is well below melting point.

Its an Akroyd fuel pump, if it gets destroyed in this process it is not easily replaced.

Regards,
Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 03-10-2019, 05:22:45 AM
Merv C Merv C is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Timaru, New Zealand.
Posts: 654
Thanks: 276
Thanked 1,218 Times in 342 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

I wouldn't put heat anywhere near the pump. It is possibly jammed up with dust and grit so heat would not have any effect. The patience method is the best. Penetrating oil, light tapping and twisting the plunger usually works. I have freed pumps like this. The secret is being gentle with a lot of patience.

Merv.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 03-10-2019, 06:09:55 AM
Paul Richardson Paul Richardson is online now
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Allansford, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 2,087
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 1,978 Times in 967 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Timms View Post
Hi Paul,

I am only really involved in this discussion because of your comment telling Gert to get the whole thing hot, with no mention of the consequences, or comment around putting the fuel pump under stress.

Regards,
Wayne
You must be joking Wayne,..surely?
I struggle to see why you might possibly think that I might come close to even knowing about the imaginary actions and consequences that you want to mention? .....let alone mention them myself ...!?

I have pretty much pointed out that as far as I'm concerned when you get a bronze casting hot,there are no consequences.

The most curious feature of your volunteering to correct my homework is the 'addition of' and then 'boiling down of' all of these imaginary consequences of yours into the description "simply heat".It becomes "simply heat" that destroys bronze.Poor editorial mate.

Last edited by Paul Richardson; 03-10-2019 at 06:40:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 03-10-2019, 09:10:56 PM
typak typak is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
Posts: 1,607
Thanks: 1,928
Thanked 3,284 Times in 821 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

Well Paul I would spray it with stop squeak and hit it with a mallet.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 03-10-2019, 09:29:48 PM
Darryl Darryl is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gunbower, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 824
Thanks: 265
Thanked 804 Times in 391 Posts
Default Re: Hornsby-Akroyd

First time ive actually looked at the pump photo just now. You defiantly need to screw a slide hammer onto the plunger and im sure it would come out. I literally use this method weekly in my work although not on Hornsby pumps.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Hornsby Akroyd Dusty Antique Gas Engine Discussion 4 02-02-2013 07:41:31 AM
Hornsby Akroyd Engines Bob Geyer Smokstak Down Under 19 01-10-2011 07:42:39 PM
Hornsby Akroyd goes home jelbart Smokstak Down Under 9 03-07-2010 08:33:17 PM
Hornsby-Akroyd Pix Patrick M Livingstone Antique Engine Archives 0 03-13-2003 08:32:57 AM
Hornsby-Akroyd Patrick M Livingstone Antique Engine Archives 0 03-22-2002 10:19:34 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:40:02 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2019 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277