Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® General Discussion > Alternative Fuels
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Alternative Fuels An energy source alternative to using fossil fuels. Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, other than conventional fuels. Waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Alternative Fuels

E15 Ethanol


this thread has 66 replies and has been viewed 10091 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:46:54 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maymont, Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,254 Times in 621 Posts
Default E15 Ethanol

Word recently has been spreading into large mainstream outlets like USA Today (Gannett) and Fox News about AAA coming out and advising drivers specially NOT to use the E15 fuel that is approved for sale by the government.

Not only that, but we're now hearing that virtually all of the major auto makers like Ford and Honda are now telling drivers that if they use E15, their warranties are voided.

Only 5% of vehicles are approved for E15. Ten major auto makers are telling the public they're out of luck if they use E15 and have problems. And now AAA is telling everyone flat-out "don't use it".

Above is an excerpt from an email received today and thought I'd share it. I avoid buying ethanol gas anytime possible.

Bill
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-05-2013, 12:56:14 PM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,602
Thanks: 7,911
Thanked 12,813 Times in 6,036 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I don't care what the experts say. Ethanol blend is a problem. Had a customer from Dallas down here for the weekend. Ran out of ethanol free gas for his chain saw. That he buys in Dallas. So he bought the local gas to finish off his work. A week later chain saw won't start. Now I have it, putting on new fuel lines and cleaning the carb.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Billy J Shafer For This Post:
  #3  
Old 01-05-2013, 01:37:24 PM
Power Power is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,731
Thanks: 869
Thanked 2,106 Times in 1,246 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Lucky carb is still serviceable.
Sits for a while- "white rust".
In this area, 10% ethanol is the only gas available. I have been folowing a post from about a year ago about running ATF in fuel system when done. No problems since doing that.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-05-2013, 01:55:20 PM
OTTO-Sawyer's Avatar
OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scioto Mills, Illinois USA
Posts: 8,162
Thanks: 15,762
Thanked 6,888 Times in 3,333 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Having run E25 for most of a year 6-7 years ago along with the occasional partial tank of E85 mixed in with it with no problems, I'm not too worried about E15..... At least not locally. The only reason I quit running the E25 was because I was buying it at a station that was 'pay in advance' with credit card, and I no longer have a credit card.

If I ever go on a road trip and travel into areas where a lot of people report problems (real or imaginary), then I might avoid it there just to avoid the chance of it actually being a regional problem.

My Vehicles, in My Area..... have Never had a problem with Ethanol. That includes my daily drivers, my antique cars and trucks, my tractors, my lawn mowers, and my hit & miss engines. The ONLY fuel related problem I have had was with my Poulan chain saw fuel line rotting away in 10 or 12 years, but I still don't know if it was because of the Ethanol or if it would have done the same thing with regular fuel in that amount of time being a small flimsy plastic tube.

But, as they say.... Your Milage May Vary. If you're afraid of using it, then don't.

Myself, I'm not going to worry about it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:16:49 PM
oldtractors's Avatar
oldtractors oldtractors is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Iowa Falls, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,555
Thanks: 1,633
Thanked 1,828 Times in 750 Posts
Images: 5
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Engines that run perfectly fine on E10 are not going to magically blow up when you put E15 in it. I have run ethanol in cars for 30 years now with no engine problems and would not hesitate to put E15 in anything I own, even if it is not approved for it.

There are only a couple E15 pumps in the country, if you don't count blender pumps that have been around for several years. It is not "legal" to put E15 in older cars, so I would guess that if go to a station with E15, there will be a E10 or E0 pump right next to it. If you don't want to use E15, then don't, and quit complaining about it.

I will have to find the link again, but at least one study showed that some cars get the best mileage with 20 or 25% ethanol.
__________________
Jim Evans
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to oldtractors For This Post:
  #6  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:22:07 PM
C-Wade7 C-Wade7 is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Whitesboro, Texas USA
Posts: 736
Thanks: 310
Thanked 459 Times in 265 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

It can cause hardstart and long crank on electronic fuel controlled cars as well as lean conditions depending on how it runs. Over 10% long fuel trim will set a p0171/174 lean code and on a car that is already at 7-8% the additional ethanol can and will push it over the edge. New cars are designed to run as lean as possible. In a carb car it is already so rich I don't know you would notice. As a mechanic I can tell you since they started with e-10 we have seen the number of crank no stat due to fuel pump failure probably triple. The electrical windings are fine the pump seizes. In a drive ability condition ford has pull fuel samples and check ethanol content by adding measured amounts of water to check adsorption, and over 10% is not acceptable.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to C-Wade7 For This Post:
  #7  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:41:48 PM
oldtractors's Avatar
oldtractors oldtractors is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Iowa Falls, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,555
Thanks: 1,633
Thanked 1,828 Times in 750 Posts
Images: 5
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Yes, excessive ethanol will throw a code. In my experimentation with my 2003 S10, I don't get a lean code until I put more than 50% ethanol in it. It still runs just fine.
You are correct that a lot of the carbureted engines were excessively rich, which means that when you add ethanol they can and do run better and get better mileage.
That is the first I have heard about fuel pump failures. I have never had a in-tank fuel pump failure and I have had 5 vehicles each accumulate more than 200,000 miles with every drop of fuel being at least E10. I think the secret is to not run your cars out of gas which overheats the fuel pumps.
__________________
Jim Evans
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oldtractors For This Post:
  #8  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:10:18 AM
Oilpulled Oilpulled is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Rockford, Illinois, USA
Posts: 3,641
Thanks: 9,548
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,945 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

You would think that by now the manufacturers would be using only components which are not damaged by even E-100. I'm aware that some rubbers and plastics become softened by alcohol. We put it in a lighter in place of lighter fluid and it dissolved the acrylic lighter tank after a few weeks.
I am certainly in favor of using ethanol for fuel but not as a beverage. The old time engine manufacturers recommended it and my Oilpull runs fine on it so, engineers, get at it and make the new ones work with it, too. How about cars in Brazil?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:17:06 AM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maymont, Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,254 Times in 621 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Here's a link to an interesting read on ethanol and damages that have occurred because of it's use. http://rense.com/general85/eth.htm

Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bill Sherlock For This Post:
  #10  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:00:36 AM
George White's Avatar
George White George White is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bowman, North Dakota, USA
Posts: 541
Thanks: 632
Thanked 344 Times in 170 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I would advise against using it at all costs. It costs more money to make it then they sell it for. Another reason this country is in debt. Lets use American oil from American Soil people.
__________________
Nick Werth
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-06-2013, 10:25:26 AM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,602
Thanks: 7,911
Thanked 12,813 Times in 6,036 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Otto I have seen fuel line turn into a brick over night. Put some in a chain saw. After replacing the fuel lines. Ran it ok. Came back the next morning to finish up. Fuel lines were rock hard.

Plus when it first came out. I was involved with a boat that blew up and killed two people. Found out after I left the boat. They had gone to the fuel dock to fill up for the weekend.Filled up with the first load of ethanol the marina had come in. After going through what was left of the boat. Found the fuel lines had turned to mush.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:02:54 PM
oldtractors's Avatar
oldtractors oldtractors is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Iowa Falls, Iowa, USA
Posts: 1,555
Thanks: 1,633
Thanked 1,828 Times in 750 Posts
Images: 5
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by George White View Post
I would advise against using it at all costs. It costs more money to make it then they sell it for. Another reason this country is in debt. Lets use American oil from American Soil people.
Got any numbers? The ethanol plants are all making money here with the current price of corn, natural gas, and gasoline. They also haven't received any subsidy for a year now. Their margins are lower than they used to be, however. If gas drops down to $2.50 without a corn price drop, they would probably lose money.

---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy J Shafer View Post
Otto I have seen fuel line turn into a brick over night. Put some in a chain saw. After replacing the fuel lines. Ran it ok. Came back the next morning to finish up. Fuel lines were rock hard.

Your supplier needs to sell you fuel line, not vinyl tubing suitable for aquarium aeration.
__________________
Jim Evans
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oldtractors For This Post:
  #13  
Old 01-06-2013, 01:11:19 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maymont, Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,254 Times in 621 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I've seen rubber fuel lines on new air cooled engines turn as stiff as a piece of wood and rubber diaphragms in carburetors as stiff as cardboard due to the use of ethanol fuel. These were not problems before ethanol, or at least in not as short a time.

Bill
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Bill Sherlock For This Post:
  #14  
Old 01-06-2013, 02:05:32 PM
Billy J Shafer's Avatar
Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Centerville, Texas
Posts: 15,602
Thanks: 7,911
Thanked 12,813 Times in 6,036 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

The fuel line was rated for gasoline fuel systems.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Billy J Shafer For This Post:
  #15  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:35:53 PM
len k len k is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 13,170
Thanks: 324
Thanked 4,687 Times in 3,426 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Lot of "plastic" parts in old engines are not rated for ethanol.

It you go to an o-ring manufactures web site and look at chemical compatability tables you see many "plastics" are compatable with gasoline , but not ethanol.

When ethanol gas first came out some 20-30 years ago, cumberland farms sold a lot if it, and eventually paid a lot of lawsuit. It ate the rubber/pastic parts of carbs, because of chemical in-compatability.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------

Just replaced my intank gas pump in 92 Chev that sat for ~3-4 years. Motor laminations were rusted to stator, copper comutator was surface corroded to so high restistance, that NO current flowed even with 24 VDC applied (measured it with my meter).

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------

To safly run ethanol , the "rubber/plastics/metals" exposed to fuel have to be rated for ethanol compatability. Which basically means you need a newer car, made/designed for ethanol. I guess even the aluminum castings get a metal coating to make them compatable with ethanol.

And I guess if you have an older car, you can't let it just sit (like I did). Guess ethanol sucks up water from the air, and that builds up and causes corrosion of unprotected metals.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-06-2013, 03:44:24 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Marcos, Texas / McGill, Nevada
Posts: 3,537
Thanks: 4,465
Thanked 2,910 Times in 1,426 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Friend is still running E95 in the race car, no special fuel lines
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:13:18 PM
len k len k is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 13,170
Thanks: 324
Thanked 4,687 Times in 3,426 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

They are likely metal, they likely will only get a light surface corrosion. I think it's the tiny passagways in things like carbs that get plugged up by surface corrosion. Maybe his carb's internal aluminum parts have a manufacturer's coating/plating to prevent corrosion. If plastic lines, car part store could have switched to ethanol type gas lines so they wouldn't have to stock 2 types.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:21:29 PM
dalmatiangirl61 dalmatiangirl61 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: San Marcos, Texas / McGill, Nevada
Posts: 3,537
Thanks: 4,465
Thanked 2,910 Times in 1,426 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by len k View Post
They are likely metal, they likely will only get a light surface corrosion. I think it's the tiny passagways in things like carbs that get plugged up by surface corrosion. Maybe his carb's internal aluminum parts have a manufacturer's coating/plating to prevent corrosion. If plastic lines, car part store could have switched to ethanol type gas lines so they wouldn't have to stock 2 types.
Factory metal fuel lines run through interior of HER car, rubber lines connect to in-tank fuel pump, and from firewall to the injector pump, injectors are stock yet modified to deliver more fuel
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:38:02 PM
len k len k is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Manchester, New Hampshire
Posts: 13,170
Thanks: 324
Thanked 4,687 Times in 3,426 Posts
Default Re: E15 Ethanol

If the car has injectors it's very likely it was made after the problems with ethanol surfaced ~20-30 years ago, so the rubber/plastic/metal parts of her car are likely ethanol compatable, from the manufacturer.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

Other possiablities come when someone/mechanic has an OLD roll of gas hose (not ethanol compatable) that they want to use/get rid of.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-06-2013, 05:54:01 PM
OTTO-Sawyer's Avatar
OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scioto Mills, Illinois USA
Posts: 8,162
Thanks: 15,762
Thanked 6,888 Times in 3,333 Posts
Wink Re: E15 Ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by len k View Post
And I guess if you have an older car, you can't let it just sit (like I did). Guess ethanol sucks up water from the air, and that builds up and causes corrosion of unprotected metals.
Looks like a good place to post a link to my video again....

http://youtu.be/SDqefZuMenU

1937 Ford truck Flathead V8 after setting for 14 years with a broken spring in the distributor. Rebuilt the distributor, put in a new battery, and fired right up, running just fine on a mixture of 15-17 year old E10. Other than priming the carb with fresh gas to cut down on cranking time, NOTHING was done to the carburator which has still not been touched since I rebuilt it in 1978 ! No carb cleaner, No idle adjustments, No Nothing.

It's a very short video of it running in the shed, but after I shot it, I pulled the truck out in the yard where it ran for a 1/2 hour or so before driving it 4 miles to the nearest gas station to add a few more gallons to it.

That was with a 1/4 tank (or less) of E10 setting in a building with a dirt floor and high humidity for 14 years with a vented gas tank.

No Problems what so ever. I've had to replace the points and battery a few times over the years, but I haven't touched the carb in 34 years. The fuel pump is a NOS replacement I put on it in the early 1980s. I ran regular gas in it when it was still available, a couple partial tanks of racing fuel just to see what it would do, then Unleaded, and then E10 ever since the local stations switched over to that. The old Flathead runs the same with any of them, and it is NOT running rich.... at least not on the idle circuit which was adjusted lean when set up in 1978. The main jets are stock, whatever size they are.... if they are rich, they haven't ever fouled the plugs, as they are still what I put in it in 1978 as well (and maybe about due for a change, but with what little I drive it, probably good for a few more years) The truck sets more than it's driven. Not counting the 14 year hibernation, it sets for 5 months from late fall to mid spring and then usually gets out once every other week for a short drive during the summer, setting for 2 weeks, driven 14 miles, setting for 2 weeks, driven 14 miles, setting for 2 weeks.............. and then setting for 5 months again. Year after year after year with E10 and a humid storage building.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to OTTO-Sawyer For This Post:
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Think ethanol is new? 73eldo Antique Gas Engine Discussion 9 01-12-2013 03:45:44 PM
IHC LB on E-85 Ethanol? dasselsmok Antique Gas Engine Discussion 13 05-09-2012 10:03:08 AM
Ethanol in the gas we buy... ronny p 148 Small Air Cooled Gasoline Engines 36 04-11-2011 10:38:56 AM
E85 Ethanol in old engines JAYPF Antique Gas Engine Discussion 9 01-04-2008 12:35:41 AM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:28:23 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277