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Alternative Fuels An energy source alternative to using fossil fuels. Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, other than conventional fuels. Waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Alternative Fuels

E15 Ethanol


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  #21  
Old 01-06-2013, 06:39:36 PM
Jim M. Jim M. is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Wade7 View Post
It can cause hardstart and long crank on electronic fuel controlled cars as well as lean conditions depending on how it runs. Over 10% long fuel trim will set a p0171/174 lean code and on a car that is already at 7-8% the additional ethanol can and will push it over the edge. New cars are designed to run as lean as possible. In a carb car it is already so rich I don't know you would notice. As a mechanic I can tell you since they started with e-10 we have seen the number of crank no stat due to fuel pump failure probably triple. The electrical windings are fine the pump seizes. In a drive ability condition ford has pull fuel samples and check ethanol content by adding measured amounts of water to check adsorption, and over 10% is not acceptable.
C-Wade7
Do you believe running a car low on gas will overheat a fuel pump and cause early failure? Is this a real possibility or just an old tale? Jim
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:19:09 PM
Power Power is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by Jim M. View Post
C-Wade7
Do you believe running a car low on gas will overheat a fuel pump and cause early failure? Is this a real possibility or just an old tale? Jim
Don't know about overheating, but do know continually running at low fuel levels wears out the upper pump bearing due to lack of lubrication.
Years back, there was an article in newspaper about getting high fuel mileage. one of the many tips was to reduce weight by only filling tank 1/3 or 1/2, and running it down.
Some people who tried it claimed better fuel mileage, but I know of several who had to replace in tank pump $$$!
Top bearing wore out.
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  #23  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:42:40 PM
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OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Makes sence. And with the higher fuel pump pressure needed for fuel injected engines, I'm sure the pumps do run hotter, so would benefit from being submerged for cooling.

Don't know how people could accurately figure their gas milage with 1/3 to 1/2 full tanks as most fuel gauges aren't that accurate and they are just guessing at how full it would be whether they added 3 gallons or 5 gallons at a time.

Back in the 1970s early 80s, I found out that my 68 Oldsmobile actually got better milage with a full tank and more weight (in the back). I always completely filled it and checked the milage on every tank but would get better milage when I refilled from 3/4-7/8 full than when I refilled from 1/8-1/4 full. I always suspected it was due to the added weight in back raising the front end a little and affecting the steering alignment. Near empty tank meant more front end weight affecting the toe-in and tire scrub adding drag and costing gas milage.
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  #24  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:44:41 PM
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Billy J Shafer Billy J Shafer is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Some fuel pumps require a good fuel flow to cool the pump.
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  #25  
Old 01-06-2013, 09:51:14 PM
len k len k is online now
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

In my 92 Chev in-tank gas pump, That looks exactly what GM engineers intended to do, cool the electric motor with liquid gasoline.

Pump is at bottom of assembly , and fuel flows up thru the motor, in rotor/stator gap and in gap between magnets, and over comutator. Cools everything.
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  #26  
Old 01-06-2013, 10:40:32 PM
C-Wade7 C-Wade7 is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I rarely run mine below a quarter tank. There seemes to be no rhyme or reason to failure but I have been noticing the ones that fail the most are ones not driven much. I did one Friday that was a 1999 with only 87k miles. We used to never see many low mileage failures in the past but in the last 5 years or so it is common. I know on a system with return fuel supply the lower the level of fuel the hotter it gets from adsorbtion, but it may be a wives tale.
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  #27  
Old 01-07-2013, 01:38:42 AM
len k len k is online now
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

wade.....in the pump failures you fixed,,,,, any chance you tore them apart to see what went wrong?? corrosion, worn brushes ??

On mine, in addition to corrosion, I noticed one brush was alot shorter than the other ( it is not the design).

---------- Post added at 12:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 AM ----------

******************************
It's interesting on several GM replacment pumps, they come with a ~1/8 inch thick jacket that covers the Aluminum round housing, supposably to quite them. It would act as thermal insulation too.
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2013, 09:25:31 AM
C-Wade7 C-Wade7 is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I have'nt tore them apart, it appaers to just be froze either stuck impeller or brush. Hard to say cause on anything but lowest bidder makes all the parts,so I'm sure that has some to do with it too.
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  #29  
Old 01-07-2013, 02:49:02 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by OTTO-Sawyer View Post
Don't know how people could accurately figure their gas mileage with 1/3 to 1/2 full tanks as most fuel gauges aren't that accurate and they are just guessing at how full it would be whether they added 3 gallons or 5 gallons at a time.
Guy I was friendly with (just retired and moved south where it is warmer) had a masters in statistical analysis. He had been driving Chevy Suburbans since 1980's. Logs everything - tire pressures, air temp. Keeps them for 250-300,000 miles. Has spreadsheets for everything.

Every test he runs is between 5,000 and 10,000 miles long with only 1 thing changed. Same route to/ from work. He ran each major brand of gasoline for 5,000 miles to see if there was a difference in mileage. Temperature compensated - colder temps cut mileage on his car - says no significant difference.

He and several people where he worked run the fuel test. I did not believe 150 pounds of gas (31 gal tank) would be significant on 5,100 pound vehicle, but it was. He showed almost 1 MPG better! The guys he worked with had all different vehicles and showed statistically significant gains too, but some had to replace fuel pumps.

He also ran tests on all synthetic vs Chevy recommended oil. Changed oil in transmission, transfer case, differentials, engine to full synthetic. Found better cold weather mileage, no warm weather difference.
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  #30  
Old 01-07-2013, 08:03:54 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Someone that runs tests like that, I Would tend to Believe.

Most people on the road don't even know how to figure gas milage with a full tank, let alone partial tanks. Some do, but the vast majority haven't got a clue.

1 MPG better with 150 pounds less weight seems a bit high, but he may have had the same situation I did with my old Oldsmobile, only with the reverse effect on the steering. His might have liked more front end weight, where mine liked more rear end weight. All depends on how full the tank was when the front end alignment was done.

They figure every 100 pounds is equal to 1/10 of a second in quarter mile performance, so YES, Less weight Should equal better milage as well, but I'm still guessing there was a weight transfer and slight steering alignment change that he didn't account for in gaining that extra 1 MPG with 150 pounds. A 1/2 MPG increase in a Suburban I could believe without the difference in tire scrub from the weight transfer.
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  #31  
Old 01-08-2013, 02:22:23 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I did not believe it would make any measurable difference.
You probably have a very good point when you say All depends on how full the tank was when the front end alignment was done.
.
I had not considered that. I always make sure my tires are at correct pressures before alignment, wonder how precise it should be - since 60% of the time, I am alone, and weigh around 200#, maybe I should sit in the driver's seat when aligned? That is more than the gasoline.

I have always kept track of all fluids added to my vehicles in log books.
I also note any major changes, like new tires or special conditions, like driving thru deep snow or if I pull someone out, so when I calculate gas mileage, I will know why it changed. I never did the extensive recording he does, tho. Too much for me.

---------- Post added at 01:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------

I calculate fuel mileage as one indicator of engine condition. On older pre- computer cars, you could tell you needed a tune-up long before it became obvious by engine operation.
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  #32  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:41:22 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Well,that dang e10 crap has cost me alot of money and time.
1 of my cars that I cant drive that is parked until I can afford a transmission and some other work,has allready gummed up again on the fuel pump sock.That corn starch and such gum up everything.
1 of my cars with a carb,the rubber tipped needle got hard and had a white-brownish mess build up on it.flooded the engine compartment with raw gas 1 day.I had been noticing poor running and gas mileage issues and then that happened.
There is very limited non alky fuel to be had.But it worth the effort to get it for your small engines.

When I restore a old engine,I use Coleman fuel or similar.It sits for a long time and dont gum up.I dont run them alot and it just makes sense .
Cost alot more.But is cheaper than carb kits and wasted time cleaning again and again.
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  #33  
Old 01-08-2013, 01:38:12 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by Power View Post
I did not believe it would make any measurable difference.
You probably have a very good point when you say All depends on how full the tank was when the front end alignment was done.
.
I had not considered that. I always make sure my tires are at correct pressures before alignment, wonder how precise it should be - since 60% of the time, I am alone, and weigh around 200#, maybe I should sit in the driver's seat when aligned? That is more than the gasoline...
I've always just aligned my own front ends with a tape measure for toe-in which we always did when replacing tie rod ends at the garage. We didn't have the front end alignment equipment so if we changed ball joints or anything major we usually recomended they take it to another shop and have the caster/camber alignment checked after we changed the parts and got it close. My own.... close was usually close enough and I never worried about it.

I never checked to see just how much the toe in changes with changes in weight distribution, but I know one of the drag racer tricks was to add a few hundred pounds to the trunk and a couple hundred in the drivers seat to simulate a drag strip launch & acceleration down the track when having the alignment done, and tell them to set the wheels straight instead of toed-in for less rolling resistance. Made them a little harder to steer when the front end came back down to normal ride height, but made for quicker ETs when the front end raised up the same as when it had the weight in the trunk.
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  #34  
Old 01-17-2013, 12:27:07 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I was running Chevron E-10 in my 2011 Grand Caravan and getting in town mileage of 18.5 to 19 MPG.

I ran it out so the tank was really low and pumped their E85. The mileage dropped to 16.5 MPG. I ran most of that out and refilled with E85 and the mileage did not improve.

I then filled up with their expensive No Ethynol gas and the mileage only went up about 1/2 to 1 MPG.

The cost difference didn't between the pure gas, the E85 didn't pay off so I started using E10 again and my mileage went back up to 18.5 to 19 mpg in town.

I have not tried changing types of gas when taking trips but the van gets between 24.5 and 26 when going out the PA turnpike on E10. There is a green switch marked Econ on the dash. The mileage doesn't change much in town when using the Econ and the engine is sluggish with stop and go driving. However, when on the turnpike the mileage increases another 2 mpg on E10 and I don't notice and sluggishness except on steep hills.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:13:54 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Response to the AAA.
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg..._Darbelnet.pdf
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:34:28 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by George White View Post
I would advise against using it at all costs. It costs more money to make it then they sell it for. Another reason this country is in debt. Lets use American oil from American Soil people.


Not to mention the US only gets a tiny fraction of its oil from the middle east. Most is from Mexico and Canada. It would have been cheaper to just let the Arabs fight each other and pay the slightly higher prices that would result.

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Originally Posted by oldtractors View Post
Got any numbers? The ethanol plants are all making money here with the current price of corn, natural gas, and gasoline. They also haven't received any subsidy for a year now. Their margins are lower than they used to be, however. If gas drops down to $2.50 without a corn price drop, they would probably lose money.
Really? I've been reading of plants shutting down because it's unprofitable even with the subsidy.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/dis...thanol-drought
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  #37  
Old 02-16-2013, 03:41:00 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I just went out in the garage and dug up Monday's financial section of the newspaper. There is an article by Blomberg news that says "oil exports take a big bite out of trade deficit. The US trade deficiet mnarrowed more than forecast in December, led by record exports of petroleum "
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:19:44 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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... The US trade deficiet mnarrowed more than forecast in December, led by record exports of petroleum "
And just like the gas companies making their 300% and 400% profits over the previous year(s) profits (those were the numbers I read 8-10 years ago while at one of my previous jobs when prices skyrocketed to the outragious at the time $2.25 to $2.40 a gallon prices), those Record Exports are above last years Record Exports.

As I've noted in other threads, they repeatedly lie to us about our gas prices being high Because of Supply and Demand every time they get investigated for Price Gouging. And when the prices finally started coming back down a little, they just started exporting more and more and more to create a False Supply and Demand issue within the country so they could keep jacking up the prices. While there hasn't been a refinery built in the U.S. in roughly 40 years, and a lot of them are setting idle, those record exports tell me that there is No Shortage in refining capacity either if they can refine so much of it that they need to export it in record volumes just to keep the prices up.

I have no problem with companies selling to foreign markets, but Not to the point of screwing over their own Country like the gas companies have been doing and congress has been allowing them to do with the phony supply and demand issue.

A couple years back, there were stories about having bottle necks at the refineries and running out of storage for the oil coming in to the Country, which looking back, was before I first heard about the record exports in gas a year or so ago, which indicates to me that THAT was the beginning of the current current situation.

They import more than the refineries can handle to make people think we have a refinery capacity problem, while at the same time Exporting record volumes to create the false supply and demand issue. And the U.S. Citizens and Economy pay the consequences when more and more of everyones pay checks go into their gas tanks instead of buying goods that other U.S. workers make so they can keep their jobs.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:21:39 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

US EPA regulations for E-15 state: E-15 in NOT to be used in heavy duty or commercial engined equipment, such as busses, trucks, and heavy machinery. It shall not be used in any off road equipment such as off road motorcycles, carts, and 4 wheelers. It is not to be used in boats, on road motorcycles and any motor vehicle manufactured before 2001. It is not to be used in small engines, such as but not limited to: lawn mowers, chainsaws, weed wackers, and any other engine using small displacement engines. Certain automobile manufacturers have been issued waiviiers to also exempt them from E-15 use.

The EPA also has issued mandates for E-15 Misfueling Mitigation. Fuel dispensers (gas pumps) that dispense different grades of blended fuel (E-10, E-15 and E-85 will have a 4 gallon minumum selection differential between types. If you buy E-10, after an E-15 sale, you MUST buy a minimum of 4 gallons of E-10, to dilute the E-15 already in the hose!

This comes directly from the EPA website about E-15

Something else to look at: http://biggeekdad.com/2013/01/e15-gas-warning/
http://usatoday.com/story/money/cars...gines/1873733/
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:48:48 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I would also not put E15 in most busses, trucks, and heavy machinery, because they mostly require diesel, not E15 GASOLINE.

We have had blender pumps for years. No one has ever had problems with putting E10 or E0 in their cars after someone pumped E85. Now it is a problem?? They have now changed their rule/advise anyway. Almost all stations with blender pumps also have pumps that are not blender pumps. If you are worried about a little E20 in the hose, then follow the directions on the label and go to the non blender pump in the station.

The station I got gas in today had E0, E10, and diesel all in the same pump. Once again, I managed not to put the wrong fuel in my truck. I think that over the last 30 years, I now have a 100% record of correctly putting whatever fuel I intended in my vehicle. I guess I must be smarter than the average driver.

I just wish that the oil companies would quit bitching and give me the choice of putting E20 (or E15) fuel in my truck when I want. I trust it, it is cheaper, it supports American farmers, and I get better mileage on E20 than E10 or E0.
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