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Alternative Fuels An energy source alternative to using fossil fuels. Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, other than conventional fuels. Waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Alternative Fuels

E15 Ethanol


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  #41  
Old 02-22-2013, 10:23:29 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by Andrew Mackey View Post
The EPA also has issued mandates for E-15 Misfueling Mitigation. Fuel dispensers (gas pumps) that dispense different grades of blended fuel (E-10, E-15 and E-85 will have a 4 gallon minumum selection differential between types. If you buy E-10, after an E-15 sale, you MUST buy a minimum of 4 gallons of E-10, to dilute the E-15 already in the hose!
So what you're saying is No One would be able to fill one or two small gas cans anymore because they wouldn't be able to meet the 4 gallon minimum sale if they wanted to buy E0 or E10 after someone else bought E15. Meaning they would either be sent home empty handed, or would have to fill their cans with the same E15 blend in order to buy a gallon or two for their lawn mower that you claim they can't run it in.

And if you supposedly have to buy 4 gallons minimum to delute the E15 in the hose, then how many gallons would you have to buy if the last person bought E85

For that matter.... what difference would it make anyway, IF the E10 is actually 25% Ethanol and higher, as some of you guys have claimed in several other threads.

---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

Myself.... I will continue to pump whatever fuel I want, when I want it, for whatever engine I want to use it in, and Not worry about it.
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  #42  
Old 02-25-2013, 05:49:42 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: E15 Ethanol

If the EPA and the feds have a specific procedure for 'Mis-fueling Mitigation', there must be a reason for it! Since the federal mandate says E-15 is NOT to be used in small or off road engines and boats (as well as any aircraft), there must be a reason for it! The 4 gallon minimum is for dilution of excess alcohol in the fuel, wether it be E-15 or E-85. With the average hose only holding about a quart, I am guessing that the dilutuin rate is about an amount under 16:1, for mitigation. Most gas stations will be selling E-15 alongside E-10, in multi mix pumps (E-10, 15, and 85.

I notice in their sites, that they do not have a remediation for misfueling the vehicles themselves - what happens if some dummy at a service station puts E-15 in a 1990 or earlier vehicle? The law specifically denies it's use in these vehicles. What happens if the E-15 causes damage - who is responsible? What happens if E-10 is put in an auto designed to run on E-15 or 85 for thatmatter - is the owner responsible for the excess air pollution? With some of the major manufacturers saying they will not honor Warrenty on vehicles using E-15 (as some small engine manufacturers now have a policy on strict measure of E-10 of which already has been found as high as 27% alky in supposed E-10 fuel), who will be responsible forwarrenty work, if the fed demands its use?

As it will be unlawful to use E-15 in virtually anything smaller than an auto, or in any heavy duty service, perhaps the government, in its infinate wisdom, is trying to make any gas can under 5 gallons, not fillable with anything but E-10! If the E-15 mandate comes out, you will not be able to fill any small gas can under 5 gallons!

Andrew
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  #43  
Old 02-25-2013, 09:03:11 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Mitigation just means to lessen, or ease, or moderate, or tone down, or dull, or soften. The Misfueling Mitigation Procedure or MMP is the proposals by the station owners and dealers on how they plan to soften, dull, tone down, or moderate the E15 remaining in the hose if the next buyer opts for E10. As in 'toning down' the E15 with 4 gallons or more of E10. It ISN'T mandated by the EPA, it was approved by the EPA as a way for stations to apply for waivers when they have multi fuel pumps.

The EPA has approved E15 for 2007 and newer vehicles, and older flex fuel vehicles, and the only reason it hasn't approved it for 2000 and older vehicles is because there is Insufficient data to demonstrate that the use of E15 will not cause or contribute to the failure of those motor vehicles to meet the emissions standards to which they were certified. Older vehicles may experience conditions that lead to emission increases if operated on E15. These concerns include the potential for catalyst deterioration or catalyst failure.....

If you live in an area where they routinely test vehicle emissions, then run the E10 or E0 assuming that the rest of vehicle is still capable of passing an emissions test anyway, but if you're burning a quart of oil every 500 miles with scored pistons and a plugged up converter and wouldn't pass the test anyway, then running E15 likely wouldn't make you fail the test any worse than you would already fail it.

If you live in an area where they Don't test emissions, or have an older vehicle that doesn't have a catalytic converter, and never had any emissions standards requirements, then run any damn fuel you feel like running and don't worry about it. My 37 Ford is exempt from emissions testing, doesn't have a catalytic converter to go bad, and runs just fine on whatever fuel I put in the tank.... Same thing goes for my 69 Firebird. Just because they haven't approved E15 for use in them, doesn't mean they are banned from using it, as there is no converter to go bad (or I should have said: to Possibly go bad, as there is still insufficient data to show if a converter MAY be damaged by it) Older 1970s to 2000 models that DO have converters on them are the ones they are, for now, Not Recommending (or Not approving) using E15 in.

As for filling any can smaller than 5 gallons, that would also mean you couldn't fill the tank on your motorcycle, which I noticed something about that on the EPA website as well, but I didn't click on enough of the links to find what the "Proposed" answer was to that question. I highly doubt the EPA will be banning motorcycles any time soon just because they maybe can't fill up at a multi fuel pump.

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

And Note that the line about the insufficient data is NOT saying the E15 will cause the engine to fail..... it is saying it MAY cause it to fail to meet the emissions standards.
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  #44  
Old 02-26-2013, 03:37:35 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: E15 Ethanol

EPA regulations state E-15 is NOT to be used in motorcycles - either on or off road.

Otto sawyer, your '37 ford probably would run on any fuel you put in it - the quality of gas in '37 was not all that good. Besides that, as stated earlier 'corn fuel', kerosene, and other distillates often made it into the tank as well. Those engines were designed with low compression, so would probably burn anything put into the tank. Back then, they didn't have to worry about emmissions. Things were built to last, with a minimum of maintainance. Today's autos are micromanaged with computers. Everything must be 'just so', for them to work properly. The slightest change in parameters will throw them off.
Andrew
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  #45  
Old 02-27-2013, 05:13:37 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I would like to see these regulations. Usually the manufacture recommends fuel requirements for there engines. If you put the wrong fuel in its your problem. Also if a gas station is selling fuel with more then advertised ethanol or octane less then posted on the pump they are breaking the law. If you know of a station doing this it is up to YOU to report it. Bob
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  #46  
Old 03-01-2013, 05:09:07 PM
Andrew Mackey Andrew Mackey is offline
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Exclamation Re: E15 Ethanol

Already a problem, here in NJ. My son's shop has detected up to 27% alky in E-10 pump fuel. Stihl Saw has a fuel test kit the dealer MUST use, before any warrenty work is authorized. Stihl demands that no more than 10% alcohol by volume, must be used in their saws. Also, no fuel more than 30 days old. If you exceed their demands, NO warrenty. The Stihl test kit can determine age and alcohol of the fuel tested. I do not know if the Stihl test kit is available for sale, to the public. Red Max now also has a new fuel test kit out. Their test kit uses a strip that you imerse in the fuel for 3 minutes. It is then observed by the tester. It tells age of fuel, alcohol content, water content, and oil content. All in one go! Costs $1.00 a strip, dealer must buy in 50 strip quantities. Not for public sale at this time. With up to 27% alky in E-10, who is going to moniter the E-15 when it comes out? If excess alky damages your engine, who determines where the excess came from, and how do you go about trying to prove it? For now, I have not seen E-15 here in NJ, but no doubt it's coming. Let the buyer beware!
Andrew
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  #47  
Old 03-01-2013, 06:03:00 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

I will repeat if you are finding stations with more alky then advertised its up to you to report it. The weights and measure guys cant catch all the stations that might be cheating. I dont think we have any e-15 here ether. We do have E-85. Those are seperate pumps and they are labeled for flex fuel only also the pump asks you if your vehicle is made for flex fuel and you have to answer it before it will turn on. Bob
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  #48  
Old 03-01-2013, 10:08:04 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

We have the standard "May Contain Up To 10% alcahol" E10 E25 and E85 available locally. I haven't seen any E15 YET, but the E25 has been around for years.

I have used them ALL in my daily driver (Non Flex Fuel) along with using them ALL in my lawn mowers, hit and miss engines, and other cars, trucks, and tractors.... AND a motorcycle that I ran E10 and a couple tanks of E25 in but never tried the E85.

Never had any problems with Any of the fuels, in Any of my vehicles or engines.

With the one exception which I've noted before, being my Poulan chain saw that the flimsy thin flexable fuel line disintigrated in after about 10 years, which I still can't say for sure if it was alcahol related or if it would have rotted away in the same amount of time with regular gas. Ran fine season after season until the pickup line fell apart and it couldn't draw the fuel into the carb anymore.
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  #49  
Old 03-01-2013, 10:31:22 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by Andrew Mackey View Post
Already a problem, here in NJ. My son's shop has detected up to 27% alky in E-10 pump fuel. ....... With up to 27% alky in E-10, who is going to moniter the E-15 when it comes out?
Yourr state 's depatment of weights and measures should be monitoring the gasoline. I am not sure why an individual station selling bad, illegal fuel has anything to do with the argument of whether E15 will work in your car.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:40:49 PM
PhilBurandt PhilBurandt is offline
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Do they use ethanol fuel in airplanes?
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  #51  
Old 06-22-2013, 12:06:14 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

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Originally Posted by PhilBurandt View Post
Do they use ethanol fuel in airplanes?
NO. Too risky
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:26:16 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

They do run leaded fuel. Bob
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:27:18 AM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

On the AV gas front, production of 100LL may be ending soon:

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/2...-end-of-100ll/

Mike
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:11:03 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

OTTO
Where are you getting the E15 in Il? Ive only seen the E10 and E85.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:39:05 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

rj:

As per my post #48, I haven't seen any of the E15 yet, but I have used the E25 which I bought in Lena IL about 10-12 West of my place when I've been over there for auctions, and I Used To Buy it at a small FS station in Freeport (6 miles South of me) run by Stephenson Service Company which only has Pre-Pay pumps which I can't use anymore because I no longer have any credit cards to pre-pay with.

Those are also the two places where I bought the E85, but I think that is also available at a few other stations in Freeport.

For the most part anymore I am running either the E10 or the 'Up To' 10% which a few people on here keep claiming is 'Up To' 27% instead of 10%, and every once in a while another partial tank of the E25 when I get over to Lena.
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Old 07-25-2013, 04:01:36 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Is the E25 any cheaper? Im 10 miles north of Elgin and all I ever see is E10 or E85. Near East Troy there was a small station that had 91 octane but was a buck a gallon more than 87 octane. Havent seen any "pure" fuel lately.Like 10 years.

Ron
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  #57  
Old 07-25-2013, 08:44:52 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

It's somewhat cheaper, but it's been a while since I've been by either station to see just where it's at right now compared with the other blends.

Not as cheap as E85, but still a little cheaper than the E10 anyway.
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Old 08-24-2013, 01:35:49 PM
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Photo Re: E15 Ethanol

Forgot to post this earlier when I first took the picture, but locally, (in Freeport), the E25 is only a nickle cheaper than E10 (which is just labled as unleaded). I haven't been over to Lena for a while to see how it compares over there. The station there is only about a mile from the Ethanol Plant, and their prices overall are usually lower than in Freeport, but without checking again, I don't know how much cheaper Their E25 is from their E10.

Notice too that the sign refers to the E25 as "premium" due to the higher octane rating. "Premium" always cost More than Regular in the past, so being able to buy E25 Premium even at a nickle a gallon savings, is an even bigger savings when compared with the previous Higher price for "premium".
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:15:23 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

Otto check the pump of the regular unleaded. It has to have % of Ethanol posted on it if it has any. Bob
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Old 08-24-2013, 05:28:41 PM
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Default Re: E15 Ethanol

It may be a while before I get back to that one to look again. It's an 'unmanned' station I used to use quite a bit when I had credit cards to 'Pre-pay' with, but can no longer use as I no longer have any credit cards. I just did a 'drive-by' to shoot the sign a couple weeks ago.

IF I remember, and get over to that side of town, I will try to take a look at it again.
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