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Alternative Fuels An energy source alternative to using fossil fuels. Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, other than conventional fuels. Waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Alternative Fuels

Ethanol gas production environmental pollution


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  #1  
Old 11-14-2013, 04:20:07 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

The government does not agree with this.

Engines hurt damaged
- yes Environment hurt
- yes Uses lots of fresh water
- yes Engines loose mpg up to 10% less
- yes net energy only breakeven
- maybe And all for an ideology of using less conventional energy because it is renewable.

EDIT: CBS Pulled the story!
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:05:50 PM
Steve Webre Steve Webre is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

I'd hate for it to get around that CBS got something technical right...but they did.

It has been obvious to many from the start that this ethanol push was a poorly thought out idea w/ little technical merit and no free market support, but lots of "feel good" potential for some.

I'm very glad that someone in CBS woke up and has effectively said "The Emperor has no clothes."
  #3  
Old 11-14-2013, 08:04:55 PM
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Elden DuRand Elden DuRand is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Beware of The Law of Unintended Consequences.

Guvmint is one of the biggest invokers of the above law.

They never learn.

They never do anything right and while doing so, spend inordinately large sums of taxpayer's money.

Did I mention that Guvmint never does anything right?

Oh, yes - Guvmint never does anything right.

Of one thing you can be assured. Guvmint does everything wrong.

I think I need to add that all that wrong stuff costs a lot of taxpayer's money.

I think I'll take a nap.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:12:26 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

But CBS and the AP didn't get any of it right, except for the fact that there is more corn grown there than before the ethanol boom. I grew up in that area and am distantly related to the farmer that was interviewed in the AP story.
There has always been corn grown on those hills in southern Iowa. However, in 1986 or so, the government started paying farmers for not growing corn. A lot of land was put in the CRP. I think Wayne Co, IA had more land in CRP than any other counties. Now people are mad that the government is paying farmers for not growing corn, so the 2008 farm bill removed funding for nearly 7 million acres of CRP ground. What do you expect farmers to do? When you quit paying them for CRP they still have to make money. The only solution is to put the land back into corn - just like the 70s and 80s. Ethanol had nothing to do with this. It is just people trying to make money using the assets that they own. There were a bunch of other lies in the story as well:
http://www.fuelsamerica.org/blog/ent...ong-on-ethanol

Even the farmer interviewed in the original AP story disputes the quotes of him that were taken out of context:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ub7GWbf18c

So if growing corn is badly hurting the environment, what do you want? Does everyone think that fracking is the environmentally responsible thing to do? Maybe we can just buy oil from a bunch of terrorists that would just as soon kill us after taking our money.

What do you want a farmer to do to make money? He doesn't make money by just watching weeds grown on his land?
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Old 11-17-2013, 06:26:48 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Finally some sense, they want to reduce ethanol use in gasoline.

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2013/11/15/e...-requirements/

BLEND WALL! is a big problem.
  #6  
Old 11-17-2013, 06:56:22 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

I kind of like E85. I can make way more HP on E85 than I can gasoline . It's far cheaper than the 100LL my '64dodge requires, and I can push the ignition advance even farther resulting in about another 40hp. I can also run larger shots of nitrous. The economy suffers, but this is a 413... economic it's never been. It should also be noted that it was a great bracket racing fuel. Cars made far more consistent ETs on it. Till the NHRA ban it's use in bracket racing. The next step for me is switching to pure Methanol or Ethanol. Which ever is cheaper.

I don't see why you guys hate the fuel so much. It's power in a drum.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:03:20 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

with that e85 how much lower is your MPG?
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:19:54 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
with that e85 how much lower is your MPG?
I don't really measure it... I probably go from 12-14mpg to 10mpg. It's a big block mopar with a massive cam and lots of compression. If I'm worried about the cost of fuel, I get my bicycle out.

It's simple math to determine how much more fuel you use. Ethanol's energy content per gallon is much lower than gasoline. On the upside it burns clean and has better detonation resistence. On the downside, synthetic oils only, which isn't a down for me since I only ever run 15w-50 mobile one full synthetic anyway.
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Old 11-17-2013, 09:37:22 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
Finally some sense, they want to reduce ethanol use in gasoline.

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2013/11/15/e...-requirements/

BLEND WALL! is a big problem.
The blend wall is self inflicted by the oil companies. All they need to do is allow their retailers to sell E15 and E85 and suddenly there is no blend wall. People will buy E15 if it is available. That has been proven several times. Just ask any of the gas station owners that install E15 pumps.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:14:51 AM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

30 years ago in North Dakota we had ethanol gas but I do not recall the %. I do not recall it having the short shelf life we are now seeing.

The alternative to ethanol is MTBE. The gas giants can make the noxious stuff without paying money to farmers.

They have motivation to make us hate ethanol... it is working.

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

Forgot to mention.

We are too high for the gov to allow our filling stations to sell non ethanol gas. But I can get it an hour away and buy 5 gallons of the premium high octane non Ethanol every month or two for my small engines. When I remember I use stabil in it too. I am also putting fuel shut offs on most everything so I can run the carbs dry on stuff I don't use often.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:21:32 AM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3VO View Post
The alternative to ethanol is MTBE. The gas giants can make the noxious stuff without paying money to farmers.
Yeah, and in a lot of ways MTBE is even more harmful than tetraethyl. The MTBE fowling is certainly rough on the rings and valve guides. It prevented knock, but was tougher than hell on valves. On top of that, it's certainly no more healthy for you than tetraethyl.

Really, ethanol is a great sollution. The claim that it harms engines is bullshit. It attacks natural rubber for sure, but all of that can be replaced. It's tough on valve seats for sure, but that can be gotten around by induction hardening the seat or putting a hardened seat insert in the head. It does break down conventional oils, but that can be gotten around by using full synthetics.

Many people here seem to be seeing this from the wrong perspective. The only way to get more MPG from vehicles is to up combustion chamber pressures. It doesn't matter how you get there, super chargers, turbo charges, more compression, you'll need more knock resistence from the fuel.

Tetraethyl lead and MTBE work but trying to deny the harm they cause is insanity. Ethanol isn't a perfect sollution. The perfect sollution is to reduce the population, reduce the miles driven and make sure that when miles are driven it's done so with the greatest degree of effeciency. I seriously doubt any of those will ever happen, and really there isn't a legal way to force people into driving less. I certainly wouldn't support such legislation as I support the constitution firmly.

So you hate ethanol and don't want it in your gas? Without it, tetraethyl, or MTBE your fuel will only be about 40 octane unless you want to pay 4 times what you currently pay at the pump. If you want a car that will run on 40 octane fuel and have the performance of your current vehicle, be prepared to get about 7mpg. Lots of bitching going on, but no talking about the alternatives.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:50:16 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

MTBE and Ethanol. the main purpose was not to raise octane but to burn cleaner.

Quote:
In the United States, the Environmental Protection Agency had authority to mandate that minimum proportions of oxygenates be added to automotive gasoline on regional and seasonal basis from 1992 until 2006 in an attempt to reduce air pollution, in particular ground-level ozone and smog.
Since modern cars are computer controlled, the need for oxygenate added to gas is eliminated is what I have read.

http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/gas.htm
Quote:
In 2005, Congress passed the Energy Policy Act that removed the oxygenate requirement for reformulated gasoline (RFG). At the same time, Congress also instituted a renewable fuel standard. In response, refiners made a wholesale switch removing MTBE and blending fuel with ethanol. According to EPA’s RFG Survey Data, MTBE has not been used in significant quantities in RFG areas since 2005. A similar decrease in MTBE use has also been observed in conventional gasoline areas.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...ops_oxyge.html
Quote:
Critics of the oxygenation rule—including both Republican and Democrat politicians in California—argued that gasoline could be made to burn as cleanly without oxygenates as with it, and that the rules imposed additional cost burdens on producers, and thus on consumers.
So lets all understand the truth about what these compounds are.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:45:28 AM
RSCurtis RSCurtis is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Since modern cars are computer controlled, the need for oxygenate added to gas is eliminated is what I have read.

I would have to agree. Many of the oxygenates added to fuel in the days of points and carburetors have no application on modern engines. It's become nothing more than a form of corporate welfare.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:48:58 AM
Smithsonite Smithsonite is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

The more things gov't sticks their grubby fingers in, the more things get screwed up.

MA mandates ethanol in our gasoline - there is NO choice given. Amounts posted on the pump say 10% ... but as a small engine and auto mechanic, I can confirm with certainty that these levels are MUCH higher in reality.

Why? Well, think about it: 4 million + registered vehicles in the Commonwealth .. all getting 2-3 LESS MPG. Your at the pump sooner than you should be, paying more road taxes, for diluted gasoline that still costs a premium. It's a win-win for the gov't (state and federal), the oil companies, and the ethanol producers. Everyone else loses.

I do make a pretty penny off the latest ethanol craze though. I clean hundreds of carburetors a year loaded with gelatinous goo, replace miles of fuel line, and dump hundreds of gallons of pee-colored gasoline that has separated from the ethanol. It is wreaking havoc with small engines. People are getting sick and tired of it! More money spent on needless repairs (if we could just buy pure gasoline), more tax revenue for a state that is completely out of control with their spending.

Ethanol blending will go down as one of the biggest scams of the 21st century.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:32:07 AM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

In principle renewable energy is a good thing.

It makes sense to have farmers grow corn for fuel rather then pay them or other farmers not to grow crops or worse fail financially. The Ag industry at the farm level is a large loosely coupled system. Even the places that do not grow corn are impacted by corn used for fuel in other parts of the country. For example the increased price of corn may cause a dairy farmer to feed an alternate crop to his cows. And it is way more complex then that.

The price of gas has fluctuated like crazy. 2 or 3% loss of MPG must be close to noise compared to the impact of the price.



It took Detroit 20 years to get a clean burning engine. It could be that we are still in the early stages of learning how to use ethanol in our cars. Sort of like the early government mandated emission systems we all hated. In short I think it can be done better. But that will be slow in coming with the oil companies fighting it!
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:40:11 AM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

I'll morph the thread a second then back to ethanol.

Yes the MBTE craze simply shows the eco zealots have absolutely no clue as to ramifications of a chemical product and it's side effects. I remember pumping the crap into my car and my clothes reeked of ether. Then getting a whif of it induced an almost instant nausea and the urge to puke.

Some got sick from the toxicity in it and did convulse or got severe flu symptoms for a day or two. I remember one day in winter at the gas station where one woman got a whif and instantly cramped up with abdominal spasms, bent over and horked as she was pumping it.

That has to be some powerful chemical content to overpower the body that fast. Then there's the secondary long term effects of it as it gets into the water supply.

Yet the government took no action and we had it for x years. They knew the ramifications and eventually it quietly faded away with a hush hush approach. You can assume that until some of the instigators of the law got sick on it it was going to stay. Around here eventually the DNR and other groups quietly raised a stink within the hallowed halls about it and it was gone.

Back to alky. I had a paper from the EPA that was written about 1990 that stated alcohol did very little for emissions but didn't hurt. That white paper has been removed from the EPA files and I wish I saved the copy I had. You can be sure the ethanol lobby funneled a bunch of money in the right direction to make that one go away.

It's all a money game. Lobbyists putting someone in office, farm subsidies, at the pump subsidies, grants for ethanol industry equipment manufacturers, and the list goes on. A very large and questionably dirty production and distribution infrastructure has been created all under the guise of cleaning up the environment.

Sorry to say it but it doesn't work. The eco politicos created a self serving and perpetuating industry. An industry that does nothing to achieve it's root cause of reducing emissions and only lining the pockets of what we can call the ruling class.

If you Look at cars in the last 10 years, they have what is called a closed loop engine control system which uses 4 or 5 oxygen sensors that monitor exhaust content. The ecu adjusts ignition and injection timing and volume to achieve a certain level of constituent gasses in the exhaust. It's a pretty neat system and now easy to achieve with god reliability.

Having the understanding of new engine controls, there is essentially no need for oxygenation enhancing additives to gasoline. Your car will create the same emissions on straight gasoline as it will by using ethanol in whatever concentration is mandated.

Today it's all about the money and who's pocket it gets funneled into. One lobbying group versus another.

I won't get into the power production of alcohol versus gasoline, but the volume ratio is approximately 8 to 1 for the same output using alky versus gas.
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Old 04-22-2014, 11:34:45 AM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamescon...-is-of-no-use/

So now it is turned round and corn ethanol has been declared to be on no use, no benefit to environment.

But you think they can stop? Like drug addict, kicking out ethanol will not be easy. Entrenched they are now, tooth and nail fight to keep on keeping on with the system as is.

Just like O-care, will become entrenched and no reversal except for extreme measures.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:07:45 PM
SoTexRattler SoTexRattler is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

My rejection of corn based alcohol for fuel is this:
We should NEVER, EVER be diverting human foodstuffs into our gas tanks.

Food-wise, everything made from corn is more expensive now because of that Unholy Trinity of Govt., Oil Industry and Farm lobbies making corn Ethanol for motor fuel.

A Mandate like E-10 which increased the cost of foodstuffs produced for the table is unjust if it adversely affects that basic cost of living for Americans whether they drive a car or not.

Notice the initial negative reaction to EPA's announcement was from that lobby...

Just like the ravenous plant from the movie "The Little Shop of Horrors", the Ethanol Lobby keeps saying FEED ME, SEYMORE!, FEED ME NOW!
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Old 04-23-2014, 08:16:21 PM
Tony Rye Tony Rye is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

I think the government should pay me to not work on your tractor if a farmer cant figure how to make it without the government he should be out of business but I guess that why all farmer drive GM are Chrysler. maybe they will pay me to not work on fords
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:49:25 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Those who are only into bashing the Farmers need to get off their duff and quit buying food stuff that they raise, and grow their own or better yet buy it from some foreign outfit that don't worry about your safe food supply. While there are some big corporate units out there, the vast majority of farmers are smaller family run operations that need to make a living same as anyone else.
Many hard working family farmers bust their butt to grow and supply safe foodstuffs for the supply chain many times for barely enough money to pay their bills. Most of those foreign sources cannot feed their own population much less export anything. In Europe the farmers and farmland are protected and subsidized heavily to ensure the food supply chain, they well remember the near starvation that was rampant during the War years, they vow to never again let that happen! Those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat those same mistakes over and over again. F.J.W.
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