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Alternative Fuels An energy source alternative to using fossil fuels. Materials or substances that can be used as a fuel, other than conventional fuels. Waste oils, vegetable oils or animal fats, which can be used alone, or blended with fossil fuels.

Alternative Fuels

Ethanol gas production environmental pollution


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  #21  
Old 04-24-2014, 06:27:13 AM
Tony Rye Tony Rye is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

and as always when the government hands out money there is waste so when i pay 2.50 for a loaf of bread with the sub.(my tax Money) I end up paying 4.00
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Old 04-24-2014, 04:48:28 PM
SoTexRattler SoTexRattler is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

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Originally Posted by FWurth View Post
Those who are only into bashing the Farmers need to get off their duff and quit buying food stuff that they raise, and grow their own or better yet buy it from some foreign outfit that don't worry about your safe food supply. While there are some big corporate units out there, the vast majority of farmers are smaller family run operations that need to make a living same as anyone else.
Many hard working family farmers bust their butt to grow and supply safe foodstuffs for the supply chain many times for barely enough money to pay their bills. Most of those foreign sources cannot feed their own population much less export anything. In Europe the farmers and farmland are protected and subsidized heavily to ensure the food supply chain, they well remember the near starvation that was rampant during the War years, they vow to never again let that happen! Those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat those same mistakes over and over again. F.J.W.
FJW, you may not realize it but we are in violent agreement...
Your reply is about the viability of a FOOD supply chain.
My rant was about a subsidized FUEL supply chain that happens to be a foodstuff being diverted into making fuel for cars.
We should NOT be doing that because of the unintended consequence of directly raising the price of foodstuffs for the TABLE.

Now, if they ever get cellulosic alcohol production working right, then I don't believe I'd have any heartburn about energy farmers growing Johnson grass, kudzu, corn stalks or the like to turn into fuel.
Yet we(the gov't) should NEVER subsidize growing that stuff to the detriment of producing foodstuffs for our table.

Our gov't has done such a wholly inconsistent job of doing just what you are referring to in Europe.
Either it has been allowed to be politicized (like the political over-reaction to the paying of farmers NOT to grow corn) or not doing enough to keep farmers and foodstuff production viable in the tough times (weeds).
THere has to be some consistancy as it can't grossly change the rules of the game every 4, 6 or 8 year political cycle.

I have lots of Iowa corn farming relatives. If we were up there, I'd probably be growing it for the tank too, but thank goodness, I'm not.
I just get to pay a buttload of money for groceries and needlessly contaminated gasoline for my car so a self-serving lobby can get rich.
  #23  
Old 04-24-2014, 07:35:30 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

You keep blaming the farmers for the sins of the Mega Agribusiness and the processors. Naturally any big money conglomerates have plenty of politicals under their influence. The Govt. agencies that come up with these rules (EPA, USDA, DOT, etc) are the bully boys that bring the grief to the rest of us. And as any one else I damn well resent being included in your Rant as the cause. Every one of the public has to deal with the various BS from Washington. Every one that gets a union job or a public paycheck or buys durable goods all receive both the cost and benefits from any number of subsidies.
  #24  
Old 04-24-2014, 08:32:46 PM
Heins Heins is online now
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Frolich, the corn they make ethanol isn't food grade corn. Before they started making ethanol, we were selling corn for $1.90/bu. The government payed the farmer what they called a LDP payment to make up for the low price of corn which amounted to millions. Since ethanol the price of corn is around $5 to $7/bu and the tax payer doesn't have to pay the LDP payment. Look at the jobs the ethanol has created and if it weren't for ethanol gasoline could be $1 higher than it is now. The oil company don't tell you but they need some ethanol to improve their gasoline. E85 is about $1/gal cheaper than gasoline and there are cars that will burn E85. If you think the farmer is making too much money, buy you some land and machinery and start farming, that is what I did but it wasn't because I thought farmers were making too much money. I did it because I didn't want a 8 to 5 job. Ethanol is a good fuel and it is here to stay, get use to it!
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Old 04-24-2014, 09:25:40 PM
Bill Sherlock Bill Sherlock is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

It is my understanding that mileage from E-85 can be substantially less than that from regular non ethanol gas. If in fact it costs less than regular gas, when compared on a MPG basis, there is probably no economic benefit to use use E-85. I have a 2011 Malibu that I bought in spite of it being a flex-fuel vehicle. It will never see E-85 even if it was readily available in this part of the country.

Bill
  #26  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:02:29 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

I am so sick of watching my gas hand drift down so quick with this modern gas. I used to get good mileage in my old 6 cylinder truck and now it is worse than a v8.
Why, Damn corn squeezins.
Drink corn squeezins and burn dinosaur squeezins. It aint rocket science.
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:01:05 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Why don't you Google it and tell me exactly what subsidies from the government that are given to the Ethanol producers. Actual facts, not propaganda. I am waiting... Meanwhile, you can also look up and tell me how much big oil is subsidized. Prepare to start typing.
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Old 04-24-2014, 11:32:45 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

You guys keep saying that ethanol does harm to engines, what harm does it do? Do you think you have as many engines that run on gasoline as I do? As far as farm subsides, the new farm bill has cut them out. They have gone to crop insurance. It's not a farm program, it's a crop insurance program. When insurance companies have a loss, the tax payer picks up the tab. Why do you think the agents drive new crewcab diesel pickups.
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Old 04-25-2014, 02:49:21 AM
SoTexRattler SoTexRattler is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Boats DO use that stuff!
NONE of the marinas down here have non-E fuel.
It has created a HUGE backlog of fuel related repair work for outboard engine mechanics.
E-10 fuel and high gulf humidity create hell for outboards.
Really expensive repairs.
  #30  
Old 04-25-2014, 07:12:07 AM
Tony Rye Tony Rye is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

you need to quite knocking it as a mechanic I see it as a way the government subsidize me with the extra work and there is a lot of it. and I will show anyone how much money the government sends me if they will show me how much they get. And if you cant make money grow something else. if I can not make money on a job I wont take it in. O and sometimes I loose on a job and guess what no government too bale me out
  #31  
Old 04-25-2014, 07:15:37 AM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

OK, since Froelich wont give me facts, The $0.51/gallon subsidy for ethanol ended in 2011. Yes, the RFS requires a certain volume of fuel to have ethanol, but that blending would happen anyway, because 1) an oxygenate needs to be added to fuels in a lot of states, because of pollution. That used to be mtbe, but since that causes ground water contamination, they started using ethanol. And 2) The crap we call gasoline today is around 84 octane. The oil companies use ethanol to increase the octane to get it to something usable because ethanol is the cheapest octane booster they could find.

Big oil spent $56 million the last 5 years in lobbying Congress. That buys them $4.8 billion a year in tax breaks. http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/01/t...n-fossil-fuels
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Old 04-25-2014, 07:19:38 AM
Tony Rye Tony Rye is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

does the government subsides green beans tomato and carrots are corn and cotton
  #33  
Old 04-25-2014, 07:55:15 AM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

froelich, I have to agree the idiots opened a big box of problems with this pot mess.
I mostly was being sarcastic about drinking the corn squeezin's but it just urks me to no end that we use food for fuel when algae is something we cant eat.

Far as it creating work and indirectly subsidizing the mechanics, the way I see it the hobby boat owners are not in a position to afford the work being done. Only the wealthy can really afford it, so basically the repairs are just a indirect tax on people already taxed to their knees .
  #34  
Old 04-25-2014, 01:23:43 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Another reason for ethanol and E-85 is in case of another oil embargo or war in middle east. Just look what happened when bush invaded Iraq or the oil embargo back in the 70's. I know my flex fuel truck will run on any mix. Ethanol also makes more power. Big oil doesn't like it because it cuts into their profits. There was report a couple yrs. ago where in California just the 10% ethanol gas saved a couple million barrels of oil a yr. Bob
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Old 04-25-2014, 07:34:34 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

why not just use the oil and coal that was put here drill and mine here start mfg. here again
  #36  
Old 04-25-2014, 08:06:32 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

The politicians, when they eliminated export tariffs and Rammed NAFTA in, the Big Oil interests decided to ship it over seas to drive up the prices and reap the profits from the higher prices over there. Back when we were paying under a Dollar a gallon they could get up to 4 times that on that market. Were not just talking of a few dollars more profit but Mega bucks, you can buy a lot of influence with that kind of cash and still have huge profits. That is the main reason for the Powers that be are fighting the Keystone Pipeline, it would bring crude into the lower US, not to export ports. Those 2 issues above are the reason we lost so many Mfg jobs from the US, and we all know how that has worked out for the working citizens of this country.
  #37  
Old 04-25-2014, 08:35:24 PM
sdowney717 sdowney717 is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

Not only Nafta ruined us, when you buy on a world market competing for oil, your competing with national government buyers who then subsidize the price of oil to their citizens. Citizen gets to pay less than what the market bears.

Then look what happens when those governments raise gas prices in those countries, riots. even just hinting a price increase is serious trouble ahead.
  #38  
Old 04-25-2014, 08:37:49 PM
Tony Rye Tony Rye is offline
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

the ethanol lobby is the one pushing the ethanol ill see if I can get the article posted on them as you can see by this big oil and a lot of other sued to try and stop it
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2014, 09:21:49 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

The original intent for the ethanol lobby was basically 3 fold, To get away from the required additive MTBE that poisons the water table, to help reduce dependence on OPEC, and to help bolster the disasterous farm prices that resulted from the Carter years. These were then and still are very good reasons for the effort, mostly every one gains something for the good of everyone with the possible exception of Big Oil. His grain embargo to the USSR and His double digit interest rates thru the Federal Reserve policy was the double whammy that basically destroyed the then ultra stable Family Farm economy and set the stage for the Mega Ag operations we see today while the traditional family farmers that managed to survive those times have to find employment in the already overloaded job market to compete with all the other non farm sector. We saw those huge operations go under back then but come back today with the blessing of the USDA at the expense of the traditional farms. It's the mindset of the day that no matter how much they expand the banks have taken the attitude that they won't call in the notes as they don't want to write off that big of a loss so just like the other biggies, their too big to let go under. You can run and spend pretty fancy when you have the knowledge that no matter what you can get more.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:07:33 PM
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Default Re: Ethanol gas production environmental pollution

FWurth, some of the big farmers that should have gone down the tubes got their loans written off and are flying high today. Didn't have to pay back.
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