Antique Engines and Old Iron
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Antique Engine Community > Carburetors, Mixers, Fuel Pumps and fuel delivery
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Carburetors, Mixers, Fuel Pumps and fuel delivery Discussion about misc. carbs, mixers, fuel pumps, injectors.

Carburetors, Mixers, Fuel Pumps and fuel delivery

Holley 650 carb issues


this thread has 41 replies and has been viewed 2446 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-12-2016, 12:22:37 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Concord, North carolina
Posts: 3,170
Thanks: 767
Thanked 2,413 Times in 1,103 Posts
Default Holley 650 carb issues

A couple questions but first let me explain the story.
Carb is a 4160 4 barrel 650 cfm holley. Truck has 2 fuel filters.New sock in gas tank and tank was clean as a whistle and still is
I helped my dad with getting the 350 and transmission overhauled for his 1970 Chevy pickup back in 2013.
It had a quadrajet on it and I suggested changing to a holley. I got a used carb and a kit and we had someone fix it for us and put it on. It ran "ok" till about 4 months ago.It got hard to start and did not idle right.
This truck has not had ethanol fuel in it since the overhaul. 91 octane non ethyl only. Unless the pumps were miss marked.
Well it got to the point fuel was coming out around the throttle shafts. I adjusted the floats by the instructions on the paper work that came with the kit..It ran great for the test drive and we was happy. Next day, went back to it's old self.
It also needs the base leveled up. for whatever reason it has warped and has a gap between the base and gasket. There is a machinist local I can take the base to and have it leveled on a digital bridgeport.
But my questions are,Would both floats go out at the same time? I can see 1 going out and letting fuel around the shaft but both?
Can I overhaul this carb? I have done tractor carbs for years and did 1 for a ford pinto and other stuff,but this kit diagram looks complicated.

Does anyone have pointers or ideas of what could cause it to flood if the floats are not bad?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-12-2016, 01:31:35 PM
J.B. Castagnos J.B. Castagnos is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South Louisiana USA
Posts: 2,095
Thanks: 671
Thanked 2,824 Times in 827 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Some of the Holleys had an equalizer tube between the front and back bowls, this would let one flooding bowl feed the other. If you have trash in the needle and seat you can remove it without disassembling the carb, blow it out and reset the floats.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to J.B. Castagnos For This Post:
  #3  
Old 04-12-2016, 02:04:08 PM
edward moller edward moller is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: walhalla, sc
Posts: 198
Thanks: 0
Thanked 45 Times in 36 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

holleys have a bad problem with ruptured power valve diaphragms, it it ever backfires one time it will rupture the power valve allowing fuel to run into the engine,set the floats with the level screws out of the bowl, with the engine running. till it is just below the bottom of the hole.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to edward moller For This Post:
  #4  
Old 04-12-2016, 02:12:26 PM
FWurth's Avatar
FWurth FWurth is online now
One Millionth Post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Freeburg, Illinois, USA
Posts: 4,948
Thanks: 6,187
Thanked 4,224 Times in 2,228 Posts
Images: 4
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Have those damn Hollys on our old grain trucks, always problems. bought a new one and worked ok for a year then would fill up the oil pan with raw gas, replaced it with another new one as the supplier informed me that they had a bunch of recalls. The new one also had the same issue after a short time, finally gave up with the new ones and found an old one that so far is working. One truck here has a Eddlebrock on it and that one seems to not have problems so far. We worked on those Hollys and replaced almost every thing in them, including the power diaphragm but no change, and could never get them to not flood over. Even replaced the fuel pump as that was thought to be the issue but not. I still believe that this was the main reason every one went to fuel injection.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FWurth For This Post:
  #5  
Old 04-12-2016, 03:54:39 PM
akuna akuna is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 2,107
Thanks: 145
Thanked 681 Times in 536 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Sounds like it needs a spacer to keep the heat from the intake away from it.

My guess anyway. It should not warp the base unless there are heat or mechanical issues like it not fitting the manifold or over tightened bolts?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to akuna For This Post:
  #6  
Old 04-12-2016, 06:47:35 PM
mmcdonald mmcdonald is offline
Banner Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Jefferson, Georgia, USA
Posts: 515
Thanks: 9
Thanked 181 Times in 160 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

The equalizer tube is a good tip. Highly unlikely brass floats bad at same time but if you have the foam floats its theoretically possible they soak up gas relatively equally thus both sinking at the same time. Only way to know if the foam floats soaked up gas is to weigh them against a known dry float. You are probably capable of cleaning the carb although it is a PITA in my opinion unless it's just fuel residue. If it's corrosion that needs cleaning that makes it a VERY involved cleaning especially on the metering blocks. If the checks in the pump circuit are not working that will cause it to flood or run rich(along with the power valve as mentioned). Most common kits seem to still be using buna for everything which does not stand up to fuel like it did in the past. The green flouroelastomer which you can get for the pumps is great, but I'm not sure if you can get the power valves with that material. The warpage on the base plate is most likely from tightening or gasket swell and is very common. If it's minimal a surfacing will do but if severe you can heat it up and press on flat surface to take out the majority of it before surfacing. The more material you remove the more prone it will be to warpage. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.
__________________
info@mcdonaldcarb.com
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mmcdonald For This Post:
  #7  
Old 04-12-2016, 08:22:52 PM
Greg Mosley Greg Mosley is offline
Registered-II
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 261
Thanks: 225
Thanked 245 Times in 107 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Just a thought. Holleys are a Zimak material and are more prone to warping. Edelbrock units are aluminum. Put a phenolic spacer to rid the heat. This is a truck and it runs hard which produces high levels of heat within the valley. Metering blocks will also warp. One other issue is probably owner error. Overtightening the air cleaner. This distorts the carb also. Enuf Said.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Greg Mosley For This Post:
  #8  
Old 04-12-2016, 10:34:27 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Concord, North carolina
Posts: 3,170
Thanks: 767
Thanked 2,413 Times in 1,103 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

I will check for a equalizer tube. It leaks more from the back than the front.


I actually bolted the carb on the truck. there is a adapter plate to help the holley fit. Some folks don't like that idea but it was what we were told was the best option at the time.So the carb is already lifted up from the intake a good bit by that aluminum adapter.
I don't recall tightening the bolts that much. I was already aware of the issues of over tightening from the work I did on my Tbird years ago.It had been over tightened to the point of breaking the ears off the carb! Cost me a good bit to get that fixed.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-12-2016, 10:43:33 PM
akuna akuna is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 2,107
Thanks: 145
Thanked 681 Times in 536 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Put a rotenchester back on it, or a Edelbrock.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to akuna For This Post:
  #10  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:04:23 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Concord, North carolina
Posts: 3,170
Thanks: 767
Thanked 2,413 Times in 1,103 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

I have been hearing from a couple friends about a Quick Fuel carb that looks like a Holley but is supposed to be better?
The quadra crap that was on the truck was a gummy mess after sitting 12 years. I talked to some folks about it and they said it had check balls and such in it that were a pain to deal with.
I was skeered of it in other words.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-12-2016, 11:05:26 PM
SmokinFlux SmokinFlux is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 253
Thanks: 89
Thanked 153 Times in 89 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

What kind of fuel pump are you running, old school mechanical or a electric? This problem reminds me of typical high fuel pressure or pressure regulator going bad. Anything over 6 psi is enough to give you fits. Just a thought.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to SmokinFlux For This Post:
  #12  
Old 04-13-2016, 12:28:30 AM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Concord, North carolina
Posts: 3,170
Thanks: 767
Thanked 2,413 Times in 1,103 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Mechanical on the side of the engine. We replaced it when we overhauled the engine.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-13-2016, 07:16:50 AM
MotorMike MotorMike is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Yaphank, Long Island, New York
Posts: 183
Thanks: 225
Thanked 324 Times in 89 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

blue66 - Holleys are real easy to rebuild. Make sure you get a genuine Holley Renew kit, the blue gaskets are better. Flooding over is usually just crap in the needle & seat assy. Super simple to pull out & clean. Power valve diaphragm may have dried up and could be ruptured, replace with the correct vacuum rating for your application. If you tow a lot use a lower power valve number. Once running set the air bleed screws with a vacuum gauge. Set both sides to the highest vacuum reading possible.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MotorMike For This Post:
  #14  
Old 04-13-2016, 12:16:55 PM
ChipTosser ChipTosser is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ashley, Ohio
Posts: 209
Thanks: 106
Thanked 83 Times in 63 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

blue.
The Holley 650 duel line, 4777, 4776 series carburetor , manual choke, is very easy to work on.
As mentioned, if you have back fires on starting, the power valves will need replacement.
There should be two valves in the duel line carb.

If the valves are bad.
This will cause a very rich running and loss of fuel from the float bowl and inaccurate float level adjustment.

The one big issue that most people overlook, is the fuel pressure.

With fresh needle and seat, the fuel pressure for normal operations, should be in the range of 4 1/2 to a max of 6lbs.

Us your heat isolation plate and a large fuel filter. And do not over tighten the screws.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-13-2016, 01:23:27 PM
OTTO-Sawyer's Avatar
OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scioto Mills, Illinois USA
Posts: 8,162
Thanks: 15,762
Thanked 6,888 Times in 3,333 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Personally I'd throw away or sell the damn Holley to someone else looking for a challenge and put the Tried and True Quadrajet back on it.

Yes, GM put Holley's on some of the Muscle Cars in the late 60s early 70s, but NOT because they were any better than a Quadrajet. They did it because the public that was in the market for those cars saw people running aftermarket Holley's on their race cars and THOUGHT Holley = Performance.

Truth is.... It's Hard to Beat a Quadrajet on a Street car or combination Street/Strip car ! They're Simple And Reliable ! (unless you got one that somebody already Screwed Up, and even then they aren't too hard to fix)

If you're running Wide Open at 7,000-9,000rpm & never have to idle or drive in traffic or pull a trailer then go with a Holley & custom tailor it to your application,
but for overall drive-ability, performance, and economy, stick with the Quadrajet and quit fighting with the aftermarket crap that doesn't hold up.
__________________
I just keep coming back again and again like the Evil Twin of a Bad Penny !
http://www.youtube.com/user/oldSawyer?feature=watch
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to OTTO-Sawyer For This Post:
  #16  
Old 04-13-2016, 06:47:19 PM
ChipTosser ChipTosser is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ashley, Ohio
Posts: 209
Thanks: 106
Thanked 83 Times in 63 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

There's no challenge to it!

A holley is very basic, they are simple to work on.
They were installed on hundred of thousands of trucks, school buses, cars; over the years for that reason.

A quadrajet, has many parts that wear and are much more complicated to assemble, and set the metering rods and linkage for proper operation.

They are and where very expensive to rebuild, when replacing parts.

They also have all the same problems that any carburetor has. The quadra uses a different method of metering the air fuel. It is not as economical means of tailoring to the engine use.

Don't blame the screw driver, look at how it is being used.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-13-2016, 09:17:21 PM
OTTO-Sawyer's Avatar
OTTO-Sawyer OTTO-Sawyer is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Scioto Mills, Illinois USA
Posts: 8,162
Thanks: 15,762
Thanked 6,888 Times in 3,333 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

A $25.00-$35.00 Quadrajet rebuild kit (depending on where you get it from) isn't exactly an Expensive rebuild and they're simple as hell to work on.

Quadrajets outlasted several versions of fuel injection before they finally got engine management computers controlling enough parameters to get fuel injection working good enough to replace them.

But as you said:.... "Don't blame the screw driver, look at how it is being used."

I'd rather take a Quad and give it a $35.00 rebuild than spend $300.00 + buying a new Holley then spending more money on top of it buying the different jets and other parts needed to make it work on a particual engine set up only to have it blow out a power valve at the first little backfire.

Had an old crew-cab dually 4x4 with 4.10:1 gears in it that the previous owner had put a bigger cam in along with a Holley carb. Yeah, it ran OK, but I got tired of the 7mpg with it. Pulled off the holley and bolted on the Quad off of my jimmy and headed down the interstate on a road trip getting 11mpg at 80mph. Not incredible milage, but for an old 7400lb Crew-cab dually 79GMC full-time 4x4 with those gears and no overdrive I was happy with it.... especially compared with what it was getting before that.

Small primaries, HUGE secondaries, and being Vacuum secondaries it's damn near impossible to Over-Carburate as the air-doors only open as much as needed by the engine under any speed and load.

There's a reason GM stuck with them as long as they did even after using Holleys on a few models and however many different fuel injection set ups before they finally got that working good enough to retire the Quad.

But.... Kind of like the "Ford-v-Chevy-v-Dodge" or "John Deere-v-IH" arguments it all comes down to which is your favorite brand for whatever reason.

If you want to stick with the Holley, there's lots of good ideas posted on here on what it may need to fix your problem. If you want to go back to a Quadrajet you could pull one off an old station-wagon or most any other car or truck at the local junk yard and probably just bolt it on and run it for years and years with or without the $25-$35.00 rebuild.
__________________
I just keep coming back again and again like the Evil Twin of a Bad Penny !
http://www.youtube.com/user/oldSawyer?feature=watch

Last edited by OTTO-Sawyer; 04-13-2016 at 09:27:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-13-2016, 10:34:23 PM
ChipTosser ChipTosser is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ashley, Ohio
Posts: 209
Thanks: 106
Thanked 83 Times in 63 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

UglyBlue66

Good luck on your project.

Otto!

I thought this was to give the guy help on his asked subject? I have given him pertinent information for his request.

You have high jacked his request with your opinion only. I can not help it if you have had bad results be cause of, what ever. You can use what ever you like.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-13-2016, 10:38:47 PM
uglyblue66 uglyblue66 is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Concord, North carolina
Posts: 3,170
Thanks: 767
Thanked 2,413 Times in 1,103 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Thanks for the ideas and help. I hope to get started on this problem saterday. We can't find a soul around here to work on the carb. I could send it off somewhere but I think since you have explained it aint hard, I will try it myself. My dad being 82 come june, I want him to drive this thing some and enjoy it. His dodge you all helped me on a while back crapped out it's transmission. Waiting to get it in the shop for that. I can't fix that so it will get farmed out .
I guess my gripe with quadrojets started when i was helping a friend with his motor home. 454,with a quad on it. constantly giving trouble.
throttle plates would hang on it for some reason,even though it had been worked on by a couple different folks. I finally theorized there was something warped on the intake causing it to get pulled out of shape when bolted down. It is not on the road any more so it don't matter.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-13-2016, 11:01:58 PM
akuna akuna is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 2,107
Thanks: 145
Thanked 681 Times in 536 Posts
Default Re: Holley 650 carb issues

Seriously no one in Concord can help? Get on Craigs list and ask for help from some hot rodders or find the preferred hot rod auto parts store and ask them. Or look online and search for car restoration and find someone that does hot rods.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Holley Carb on a New Way F type Billy Purves Antique Gas Engine Discussion 2 11-18-2011 06:07:38 AM
Melted Venturi- Holley 2210 Carb- Why? dalmatiangirl61 Antique Autos and Trucks 9 11-05-2011 06:42:43 PM
Holley Carb needed wraymor Antique Gas Engine Discussion 1 04-26-2009 11:07:48 PM
Holley carb on Twin City Phil Johnson Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 13 11-20-2008 01:58:16 PM
1914 Holley Carb Rick Schanlaub Antique Engine Archives 1 06-24-2000 12:26:51 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:27:03 AM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277