Generators and Motors
[Home] - [HELP] - [Forums] - [Library] - [Photo Gallery] - [Groups] - [Classified Ads] - [Subscribe] - [Links] - [Books] - [Sponsors] -

Go Back   SmokStak > SmokStak® Vintage Electrical Equipment > Generators & Electric Motors General Discussion > Onan Generators
Forgot Password? Join Us!

Notices

Onan Generators Restoring, operating and maintaining vintage Onan generators.

Onan Generators

Job Started: Installation of 15JC


this thread has 19 replies and has been viewed 856 times

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 04-30-2018, 08:47:39 PM
Vanman Vanman is online now
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mission Viejo, California
Posts: 4,832
Thanks: 6,460
Thanked 2,079 Times in 1,419 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

IMO waste heat is so easy to recover (at least some of it) that there really is no case to be made for not doing so.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #12  
Old 04-30-2018, 08:51:50 PM
Leon N. Leon N. is offline
Registered-III
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N. Chelmsford, MA, USA
Posts: 4,221
Thanks: 739
Thanked 2,509 Times in 1,472 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

I cannot help but comment on this thread because of what I learned over the years running my pressure-air cooled JB.

First off I agree with Jim, running a generator to heat a building is a very inefficient way to go about it. However, if the generator is used as a prime power source that is another matter. If one insists on capturing the waste heat developed a better approach is to take the waste heat from the exhaust system which is where most of the waste heat is generated.

Furthermore, I understand the technique being contemplated but I caution you to be very careful because the air cooled engines need a "low resistance" path for hot air to exit. Yes this low resistance path is even more important for the intake cooling air. Putting louvers and dampers in the exhaust stream is going to add resistance to the air flow and "may" be detrimental. And yes, exhaust components do develop leaks after extended use simply due the repeated large temperature swings starting right where the exhaust pipe threads into the exhaust manifold. I kid you not, even under what appears to be an optimum set up that is the most vulnerable point for an exhaust leak.

If it were me, I would install a 2 IPS flex section off the manifold and then continue 2 IPS steel pipe to the area to be heated employing sections of pipe with finned radiators sort of what is sometimes used as base board radiators. Or locate these finned sections in a metal box with a fan that can be shut off in the Summer time.

Good Luck.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-30-2018, 09:41:03 PM
Troll's Avatar
Troll Troll is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Farmington, Illinois
Posts: 996
Thanks: 23
Thanked 578 Times in 311 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Indirect heating, low intensity radiation, or secondary heat capture is what you are referencing. Proper duct sizing and routing is required to disallow static pressure resistance to airflow and you balance this with both intake, and exhaust plenums. It is why there is to be modulated dampers on the exhaust flow, (exit) from the conditioned space. Also included is a blower not previously mentioned to pressurize the shelter slightly above atmospheric when the generator is running. This will help move air though the generator shelter for engine cooling, and move air through the conditioned space. When a wall thermostat is satisfied and no additional heat is called for in the conditioned space, one set of dampers will open, another will close and engine cooling air will be exhausted through the wall of the generator shelter. All these plenums need to be balanced of course to deliver the desired effect. I've been around pressurized automotive spray booths utilizing both direct, and indirect heated make up air and this is how it is done. In these applications a positive static pressure is used to preclude dirt intrusion into the painting space and it's balanced with modulated dampers in the exhaust.

I fully understand the concern of exhaust leaks and this has yet to be completely mitigated. However, CO2 detectors are a worthwhile investment and are incorporated in all structures we utilize as living space. This space is to be no exception.

Really appreciate your concern and expertise applied. I'm not trying to counter or be arrogant, but don't mind addressing concerns and working to come up with a viable delivered product.

Thanks a bunch!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:31:33 PM
Jim McIntyre's Avatar
Jim McIntyre Jim McIntyre is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Mooresville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 4,288
Thanks: 765
Thanked 2,424 Times in 1,405 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll View Post
...Works all winter in his shop so thinking if he has to run a generator, might as well get all the benefit to be realized.
OK, sure. But how many hours per winter are you thinking?

Quote:

...but it's the contract during the summer months that hits hard when the grid is shed to support Peoria during the really hot times. Rates are jacked up during this time. I'm thinking if he runs the genset it should bypass all commercial power altogether and supply all needs.
So are you saying he'll be off grid in the summer? or year round? Is this a 'hobby' shop, or are we talking a commercial enterprise running 2-3 thousand hours per year?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-30-2018, 10:51:28 PM
Troll's Avatar
Troll Troll is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Farmington, Illinois
Posts: 996
Thanks: 23
Thanked 578 Times in 311 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McIntyre View Post
OK, sure. But how many hours per winter are you thinking?



So are you saying he'll be off grid in the summer? or year round? Is this a 'hobby' shop, or are we talking a commercial enterprise running 2-3 thousand hours per year?
Not "off grid" compete, no. Usually about four hours per evening in the shop. If in the middle of a job, six to eight hours on the weekend days. Hours per winter is not known at this time.

Electric rates are higher in the summer months around here. He is on a co-op and it's higher than the standard utility provider, (Ameren). He is also on propane. The generator idea is to provide prime power for the property complete when shop is in operation including running/cooling the house in the summer months. Of course also any time the generator is running it is carrying facility load complete except for maintenance routines.

My son would love to expand into this as a full time profession. He has the real estate that will allow it but we prefer to grow slowly. He is always building something for someone whether it a table and chairs, desk, dresser etc. which are all in honesty "heirlooms" to pass down through generations.

One of the conversations to be had on Wednesday morning is bringing three phase power to the shop. I don't know how that will go as I didn't see transmission lines close and there could be significant cost involved there.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-30-2018, 11:09:44 PM
Jim McIntyre's Avatar
Jim McIntyre Jim McIntyre is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Mooresville, Indiana, USA
Posts: 4,288
Thanks: 765
Thanked 2,424 Times in 1,405 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Speaking for myself, (as a guy that ENJOYS tinkering at gensets) I can't imagine anything more annoying than HAVING to run a genset every time I wanted to work in my shop.

Reliable as they may be, an 30-year old Onan JC is gonna need some attention, at times when the LAST thing you want to do is fix the damn genset (again).

How much is a kWh in your neck of the woods?

LP happens to be cheap now at around $1/gallon, but as I'm sure you are well aware, its price can triple in a heartbeat...

It'll be interesting to see what 3 phase utility power would cost. Around here, it's a total non-starter. Rotary phase converters are much cheaper, both in the short and long term.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-30-2018, 11:14:59 PM
Troll's Avatar
Troll Troll is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Farmington, Illinois
Posts: 996
Thanks: 23
Thanked 578 Times in 311 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McIntyre View Post
Speaking for myself, (as a guy that likes tinkering at gensets) I can't imagine anything more annoying than HAVING to run a genset every time I wanted to work in my shop.

Reliable as they may be, an 30-year old Onan JC is gonna need some attention, at times when the LAST thing you want to do is fix the damn genset (again).

How much is a kWh in your neck of the woods?

LP happens to be cheap now at around $1/gallon, but as I'm sure you are well aware, its price can triple in a heartbeat...
Couldn't agree more on all counts. I don't know what the electric rate is there but will find out. The age on the JC does concern me for sure but having a spare for parts is a bit of relief. I have a pair of 30kw sets but they are Hercules and Continental powered so imagine parts availability there.

We purchase propane in the summer months on the "pre buy" option they have here. It's usually about .30 off a gallon from normal summer rates. The supplier I use for my shop and son's house give us a pretty good break due to quantity.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-30-2018, 11:52:12 PM
suntreemcanic suntreemcanic is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sisters, Oregon
Posts: 147
Thanks: 8
Thanked 63 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Changing subjects, if you are building a small power room for the generator I suggest getting it up off the floor about 30 inches. So much more convenient to to service and maintain. If interested I have a design that works very well.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to suntreemcanic For This Post:
  #19  
Old 05-01-2018, 12:25:53 AM
Troll's Avatar
Troll Troll is offline
Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Farmington, Illinois
Posts: 996
Thanks: 23
Thanked 578 Times in 311 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

Quote:
Originally Posted by suntreemcanic View Post
Changing subjects, if you are building a small power room for the generator I suggest getting it up off the floor about 30 inches. So much more convenient to to service and maintain. If interested I have a design that works very well.
That is a good idea and had not been considered. The initial plan was for a concrete slab with a small shelter erected upon having full width opening doors for access. With the exception of the airflow plenums the set would be easily reached/serviced.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:26:49 AM
suntreemcanic suntreemcanic is offline
Registered-I
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sisters, Oregon
Posts: 147
Thanks: 8
Thanked 63 Times in 38 Posts
Default Re: Job Started: Installation of 15JC

If you are not to concerned about security, I went to the home recycle store and found a extra tall wide door that is mostly glass and fitted it in the end of the building. I moved my generator in through that hole and then secured the door. It has no hinges. The glass provides a lot of light incase you had to work on it when the electricity is out. The JC has a quirk in it's design, on the generator end the mounting pads are part of the engine housing but the on the other end they are part of the oil pan. So you have to support the front of the engine to remove the oil pan. Just be aware of that if you decide get it up off the floor. My plan is to remove the glass door and stick my cheery picker through the opening to lift the front of the generator up. I being a mechanic am always thinking about making it convenient to service and work on.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

F o r u m Jump

Similar Threads Chosen at Random
Thread Thread Starter F o r u m Replies Last Post
Gib Key Installation? doug s Antique Gas Engine Discussion 3 05-25-2009 09:17:36 PM
15JC installation questions bkahler Onan Generators 22 09-01-2007 07:36:47 AM
It started!!!! Will Antique Steel Wheel Tractors - Old Iron Lugs and Cleats 3 01-19-2006 01:34:38 AM
Can't get it started ShawnStacy Antique Gas Engine Discussion 2 04-13-2005 12:10:20 AM
Want to get started Hal Davis Antique Engine Archives 10 07-29-2001 12:09:58 PM


Use "Ctrl" mouse wheel to change screen size.
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:21:29 PM.

Smokstak and Enginads site search!


All use is subject to our TERMS OF SERVICE
SMOKSTAK® is a Registered Trade Mark - A Community of Antique Engine Enthusiasts
Copyright © 2000 - 2016 by Harry Matthews P.O. Box 5612 - Sarasota, FL 34277